Who gets into heaven (assuming there is one)?

Yes, but not in the sense of what you and I think of worship. There are different levels of prayer. The very basic level is saying words before we sleep or reading the scripture. This isn't exactly how God wants us to pray, but he wants us to grow in it.

There is a level of prayer that doesn't require words, or any sort of thinking. It's just sitting in silence in awe of God's presence. There is also a level of prayer where you can enter into a trance, and have spiritual experiences. Almost like an out of body experience.

If your interested to know more, you can read The Orthodox Prayer Life by father Mathew the poor, we was a mystic and a monk on the Egyptian desert who spend his life in contemplation and prayer.

Worship in heaven is increasing spiritually in prayers, however your actually face to face with God so your worship is directly to him and in him. Imagine growing in love, knowledge and understanding and you become closer and closer to him and like him. Gaining his attributes over time. We don't become limited by our physical nature as we do here on earth. That means that fear doesn't exist, boredom doesn't exist. You will no longer have any need for things which are physical.

You become a more superior you over time. More importantly is you become more loving over time. A type of love that is unfathomable to anyone living on earth.

 

God's perfection is limitless. No creation can attain it's fullness. However our goal isn't to attain God's fullness or merely to increase in divinity out of our own accord, that would make us gods as well which is not possible. Our goal is to partake in the fullness of God, which means that we share in his divinity and become one body. In other words the goal isn't the destination, its the journey. He willingly shares his divine attributes out of love. He took our fallen nature and gave us his divine nature.

Because we are created our mere nature on its own cannot be divine and cannot encamp God's fullness. Nothing can encamp Gods fullness, but we can keep trying to get closer and closer.

 

"Who gets into heaven?"

...Interesting question.

I suppose the answer is whoever believes they get into heaven. I've found the theological discussions taking root in this thread to be fascinating. They are fascinating in the sense that the human mind can span over so vast a cultural divide that there are reasons and beliefs about heaven that spring from every religious background on earth.

Some say sprinkling water over a forehead begins a journey toward redemption necessary to enter heaven; some say a dedication to a moral standard and "good" works and actions get you into heaven; still others declare that only fervent subjugation to a holy manuscript will allow for a divine creator to acknowledge one of possessing the virtue required for heavenly citizenship.

I think this thread captures a wonderful contrast in the evolution of human culture in its self-imposed designs to facilitate viable standards of behavior, in order to preserve the diverse societies that have arisen alongside those evolutionary factors. Very cool.

Personally, I find heaven and hell to be what you make them on earth. Not very profound, but it works for me.

 

Yes it does... but it's not about the "purity" of one's heart.

Yes, you did assume that, and that's where you assumed incorrectly. That's not what I meant at all. I'm hoping you understand that now, or else I feel like everything I wrote in my last post was pointless....

No, it's not the same.

Saying that the purity of one's heart is what gets you into heaven implies that you have to have good morals and be essentially "pure" and holy and perfect, on your own. That is extremely different than saying that what gets you into Heaven is having a relationship with God. They're not even slightly the same thing, so this is a very important point that you're still misunderstanding.

All I can say is, God knows the heart. And also, I feel like maybe you are picturing God not quite as a tangible, real being. If I'm talking to someone and they out their faith and trust in me, but they think my name is George, does it really matter that that's not my name? I don't know. I think God would have understanding of that, if it's someone who has never heard of Him by His name. Unless He directly recess His name to them, how would they know any better? Again, lets be clear that I'm talking about people who have never heard of God or Jesus before.

That's a completely different situation. You keep conflating these examples as if they are the same, and they're not.

You still aren't understanding. It's not about whether or not the heart is "good." Salvation has absolutely nothing to do with our goodness. It's all about God's grace and Jesus' sacrifice. I've talked a lot about this previously, so I'm not going to repeat it all, but you can yo back if you need to.

If you know about the Christian God, and about Jesus, and choose to reject Him, that is not the same as someone who has never heard the good news. You have the opportunity to accept it, but you do not. That's your choice.

Now you're adding other details and making up a hypothetical situation that didn't exist a minute ago.

I'm finding this conversation frustrating, because it seems like you aren't really listening to anything I'm saying. I've already said so many times that it's not about your "heart being worthy," but you continue to bring that up again and again. I don't know how else to say it. Anyone else observing this miscommunication is free to jump in if you have a better way to explain it.

 

Im not here to debate, but I think you should be clear that this is your opinion. In all my years of being a Christian, I've never heard such an idea. That doesn't mean you're wrong, you could be right. But it's not like some thing that was clearly stated in the Bible. This is all speculation and opinion.

 

This has been an incredibly interesting conversation, and honestly I'm still very unsure of many of my beliefs in this area. It's made me think a lot, and I'm certainly not done thinking and searching and praying about it.

I found this article, and after reading most of it (haven't quite gotten through the whole thing yet), I'm still unsure of which side on which I stand. I see valid points on both ends, and they often seem contradictory. I'm really interested in this, and I would like to study it, but honestly, I tend to be leaning toward exclusivism, which would be contrary to what I've previously been arguing here. I think the 5th example in the article, regarding Acts 10, was particularly compelling to me in answering this question. Along with the conclusion of the author, as well.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/

 

The above article also addresses, at the end, the argument of infants and the mentally disabled. They said it much better than I did.

 

its not actually my opinion at all. It's the common view of the early church fathers. I highly recommend "On the incarnation" by St. Athanasius. He's the guy responsible for the Nicene Creed. That book goes into depth for why the Word had to be incarnated into flesh and die the specific death of the cross. It also gives us a picture of what the true nature of sin is.

I agree with you that the bible leaves out a lot of things, that's why there a lot of books that were written by the disciples of the people who wrote the bible. Their understanding of theology is immense, so i find it extremely helpful to supplement my views of the bible with reading these spiritual books.

 

@Castielle You are very much fixating on that it is not purity what matters. Ok, fine. Let's say it isn't. I am not arguing that it is. I just said why I assumed it. Let's say I assume incorrectly. That's besides the pint...

No, it's not important at all for this conversation. I don't see how it matters even in the slightest. It's irrelevant nuance. The bottom line is it's heart that matters.

Ok, not about purity. But it's heart that matters. Can we agree on that? I mean You said it.

Of course unless you are saying that the answer to my original question (what is it about knowing of existence of Jehovah that suddenly makes heart to not matter at all) lies in the in what is it in the heart that matters? Is that's what you're saying? If yes then sorry for misunderstanding you. If it is so then we can talk about what is it in heart that God cares about in more detail. But otherwise I don't see how it's relevant for the sake of this conversation. :/

I also think they are not the same. It's just that something you said in your post implied comparison between them. So I asked to clarify. I mean I have to ask questions if I wanna understand what you mean...

You asked a hypothetical question "How do you know that?" So I answered it with hypothetical answer. Makes sense to me. What's wrong about doing that lol?

Can we just go back to thing what I originally was/am confused about? I still don't understand what you think is that which is so important about knowledge of existence of Jesus that it suddenly overrides the importance of heart? What is in that knowledge that changes things? There must be something, right? Not knowing of Jesus is an excuse for it being ok (as long as God sees heart and judges it as good )... why? What is it about ignorance of existence of Jesus that makes it excusable? And what is it about knowledge of existence of Jesus that suddenly makes it inexcusable, even if heart is still the same?

One day local tribe people of Amazon jungle believe in God of their religion and has never heard of Christian God. God sees their hearts and judges them as good. They will be allowed in heaven. Then 24 hours later Christian missionaries come and preach Jehovah. Now the people of tribe know about Christian God. But they refuse that God and still stick to their God. Now they are not let inside of Heaven. What changed? Why their heart is not important to God anymore once they know of existence of Jehovah? Is it heart that got changed by that sudden knowledge? If yes then how? What is it that changes that suddenly not lets them in Heaven anymore?

Yes, it should not matter that they call him George. They just don't know any better. But once they have heard his real name why it changes things?

What if you would have children. You would let them live in your house as a loving mother should. But they think your name is George, because for whatever reason nobody ever told them your real name (they just call you mom, which would be equivalent of tribe people calling their god "God", instead of name like Jehovah or Zeus or whatever) and some troll told them that George is your name. Then you fixed the error by telling them that your real name is Castielle. But they did not believe you and still think your name is George, they believe that Castielle is some other mom that is not their mom. What's the justification for you to kick them out of your house? It's not like they are now not loving you anymore and disowning you, are they? They are just confused about names and does not know any better. Just as they were confused before. It's just then they did not know that they were confused. But now somebody tells them that they are confused and they do not believe that they are confused because they think they are right.

I am listening carefully but I do not understand what is it about knowledge that is so important in your opinion. As far as I can tell nothing of what you said answers that question even in the slightest. All you are saying is "God knows your heart" and "to compare somebody who does not know of Christian God to somebody who knows of him but does not believe him is not the same thing". I get that. But I am not getting how it is different and why it makes so the heart not matters suddenly anymore?

But hey, if I am frustrating you too much, and you think trying to explain this to me is futile endeavour, feel free to not reply to me anymore. I won't get upset. It's not like it's your moral obligation or something to enlighten some random guy on an internet lol.

 

That's because it's the absolute CORE of Christianity. Its literally the most important concept to understanding, regarding my religion. The fact that nobody can earn their way into Heaven by having a "pure heart" is the entire reason for the gospel, for Jesus' sacrifice. There's nothing more important than that, so if you don't understand that still, then I would recommend you focus on that point until you do. Nothing else matters if you don't understand that point.

If you don't understand why that distinction matters, then I'm afraid I don't see the point of this discussion. Its literally the MOST important thing, regarding salvation.

I don't understand this question at all. The wording of that is incredibly confusing.

That wasn't a hypothetical question. You claimed to KNOW that anyone who believes in God but hasn't heard of the Bible believes in a different God than that of the Bible. I asked you how you know that. None of that was hypothetical.

I've already answered this question extensively, several times. You just don't understand my answer.

Look, I don't know how else to explain it. I've tried several times, in several different ways, and you still don't understand. I hope you can figure it out, but I don't know what else to tell you. I've tried. And if you don't get what is important about the concept of earning salvation vs salvation being a free gift of grace that we cannot earn, then I don't see the point in discussing this further. You're free to do your own research on the subject, but I've done my best to explain it to you, and I have nothing left to say.

I posted an article above that explains this fairly well, I think. Originally I was arguing an inclusivist perspective, but now I'm leaning more toward exclusivism, given the information the article provides. But I feel it's still a bit murky and not 100% clear in the Bible.

I'm not trying to be rude at all, but I don't think there's any other way I can explain it. I feel like I've explained it well and that there are a lot of core concepts that I've provided that you don't understand, or think are unimportant, so there's nothing else I can say.

 

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I have read that book it was interesting and annoying at the same time. I don't think it explains those verses really or answers my questions. I am aware some say Jesus was talking about Gehenna when he talked about hell and he was saying your life will be like your living there if you disobey his teachings. But it doesn't matter if there's a literal fire or not because there will still be separation.

 

There is nothing in the Bible that says "Christians who think they're going to get into heaven aren't going to."

 

Yes, I figured that's what you were referring to. But the way you said it was as if Jesus was saying that nobody who thinks they're getting into Heaven will actually get into Heaven.

In this scripture, Jesus is referring to people who think they know him, but really dont. The people out there who call themselves "Christians," maybe because their parents raised them in the church or something, but they're not really walking with God at all and they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior.

Also, you're still very focused on the mindset that good works are what saves you. You said that someone might have sinned and not known it, and therefore wont be saved, but that's not what saved us. We have all sinned without knowing it, that's a fact. Being free from sin is not what saves us. Its confessing our sins and accepting Jesus as our Savior to wash away those sins with his blood.

And no, I dont agree with your assessment of the passage that nobody can possibly know if they are saved. That's not what its saying. Its saying that SOME people who think they are saved are not. I know 100% that I am saved by grace, through faith, and that I will be in Heaven when I die. I just do.

This passage often reminds me of a very charismatic church in my town. They do things all the time there that are so totally not anything God has said to do, and it's very strange. They go out and make "prophesy treasure hunts" for themselves, declaring that they will find someone wearing a brown shirt that day, and when they do they will speak this message into their life and pray for them, and that is not always from God. Oftentimes it's just their own brains making crap up that God never told them to say, but they say "well God, I did this in your name!" and He says "well I never asked you to do that, and you weren't actually walking with me, you were just walking on your own and declaring that it was me when it never was." That's what I get from this passage. It doesn't mean that nobody can ever know if they're really walking with God or not, but that some people are deceived. And I know you're probably going to ask how I know that I'm not one of those people.... I dont really know how to answer that, but I just do. It's in the Spirit, and I know. I'm also not out there doing things and preaching things that are false doctrine and not what God has ever said or done or told me to preach, because I know Him.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not against questioning things, but it kind of seems to me like you're coming up with every possible excuse in the book to not surrender your life to Jesus. And I hope you eventually stop fighting the call he's placing on you. He's clearly stirring your heart to be curious about these things. but your flesh wants to fight it.

 

Also, just to be clear, I dont believe everyone who goes to that church is not saved. I've met some people from that church who definitely know God and are walking with Him. But I think a lot of people there are deceived by the "spiritual" stuff they talk about that isn't Biblical at all (i.e. they have this weird gold dust that they claim is falling from Heaven and blessing the building or something like that, and they have a school of ministry that "teaches" people how to "prophesy" by rolling dice and song weird exercises like holding up a finger behind their back and having the other person "prophesy" what finger their holding up) and they're following that, not God. They think its God, but they haven't studied their Bibles enough to realize that God never approved of that stuff or said anything about any of that.

 

I'm not sure I've ever heard of a denomination that didn't...? So, yes, I suppose they do.

 

Spiritual gifts are not exactly things you teach. You can teach people how to embrace their spiritual gifts and guide them in how God might want them to be used, but they are not learned traits. They are gifts from God, hence the name. Some people are naturally more gifted at certain things -- like prophecy -- than others. Although God can certainly use anyone to prophecy, I dont think it's something you can really teach in that way. You can demand that God give you a word to say to someone. That's backwards. He gives you the word, and you obey Him by passing it along. I dont agree with trying to manifest prophecies out of thin air by demand. Just live your life, be close with God, and have your ears open. If He gives you something to say, say it. If not, wait.

 

I would say they were wrong, yes. I dont see much biblical backing to the idea of forcing prophesying or teaching people how to prophesy.

 

I would say everything that I've already said.

What biblical backing is there to the idea of having instruction manuals for prophecy, or going to school to become a "prophet"? That's not a man-made, man-given title. Spiritual gifts are given by God, not manifested by man. I've never heard of this in my life, and honestly I'm very surprised to be hearing about it now. That sounds kind of ridiculous to me. I can't see what someone could have possibly read in the Bible that made them think it was a good idea to create a prophecy instruction manual and start handing out degrees to label someone a "prophet."

 

Some quotes from Corinthians 12:

"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them."

"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good...." (that section goes on to list all of the gifts that are given, one of them being prophecy)

"All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

Nowhere does this chapter imply or suggest that you can learn these things or earn them or get a degree in them. They are given by the Holy Spirit, and it's also clear that some gifts are given to some people, and some are given to others. Which would suggest that not everyone has the gift of prophecy.