Making a Better Marriage

For some reason, every time my counter hits a new ten I get a bit excited, so congrats on 80 days! 10 more til' your next milestone - that's awesome!

 

All good things from your last post! Especially ths:

That's a great analogy, but good to also remember that the opposite of addiction is connection. Came across a great definition of connection in my readings last night:

If there's ever an antidote to addiction - that would be it! To paint with a broad brush, I think for the majority of porn addicts, sex in and of itself isn't the drug that we're even addicted to, so therefore more of it is not an issue but is rather ideal because the more we connect with other people instead of pixels, the more value we place on those interactions.

 

Yes this here

 

Glad you had a great weekend! As for intimacy and worrying about your addiction, I don't think it will be much of a problem as long as you continue to practice being mindful. I think the important thing, which you have done, is to have the appropriate tools and systems in place to handle urges of P&M, in case they come back in the form of the "chaser effect". I'm not sure if it's been talked about yet, but I think Karezza (sex without orgasming) could also be a good option as well in terms of physical intimacy.

Continue the great work! You're work and dedication has regularly become a source of inspiration to me as I continue on my own reboot.

 

Hi,

this is my first post on nofap and I am already going to make it pretty long and even give advices.... But that’s only because I so much admire your journey (read it all through) and have so strong feelings and hopes about your marriage that I cannot resist.

I am not so experienced Fapstronaut but somewhat experienced husband My “business card”: 39 years old, 16 years married, no kids, on porn from 16 with developed PA, now 13 days on PMO-mode (maybe PM-only not fully decided with my SO yet), tried to quit number of times with relapses, now feeling determined more than ever, talking openly to my SO.

First of all, thanks for this journal! It is written with so much candidness that it has really touched my heart and cheers me up in my own journey. Thank you!

Only after that few days in nofap regime I already realised how much I have been hurting my wife and destroying our relationship. I can’t believe how blind I was! Thus I fully understand your feelings (as much as some stranger can understand feelings of somebody from his internet blog…) and your position to your SO. Still, I also feel like I understand the point of @2974629562994628, which might have got overlooked here. I empathise all your guilty and responsibility for where you get in your marriage. You feel (as what I could read) like it is your duty to take this responsibility, and it indeed is. Now the hardest part of this philosophy comes… I am struggling with expressing myself clearly (not only because not being a native English speaker). Please do not stick to any single sentence that, as I am aware of, may read weird. The entire context is important.

Well, the other side of the coin is that it is the same duty of your SO to take her responsibility, too. You (and she) may argue (with me) where her responsibility for this all comes from! Isn’t it she who was betrayed by you?! Yes, no doubts. The trouble is you got PA because you’ve experienced some troubles in your life (whenever whatever) and haven’t found better solution for yourself. You are not saint (literary, I am happy I can speak to a brother in faith ). And neither is she. If she were, then she would have been able to give you all you need, all the physical proximity, all the safety, all the trustfulness so that you could have opened your heart and talked to her about your fears and sins (including PA) before it got too far. But it is not fair to demand that from her, right? Just as it is not fair to demand from you to avoid all you did...

Nobody is (fully!) responsible of where you (two) got. It is the original sin (literally), the unavoidable “sin of Eve” that makes her (co-)responsible for your marriage situation. Now, the important comes. From what I have learned during my marriage, I believe that women (our wives) feel more vulnerable so less prepared for accepting the fact that they inevitably live in/with the original sin. And it is my (husband’s) “task” (among others) to teach her accepting it with all carefulness and love I can. The way I can do so is 1) admit and accept (including redressing) my own sins while not losing respect to myself and 2) reveal her own participation on the evil that exists in our relationship (as a part of her own life) and express all love to her in spite of that I am aware of that.

I honestly think you too much focus on 1) (which is trully important!), yet avoiding 2). But I also honestly think whenever I avoid 2) it’s because it is dangerous and I am not brave enough to enter this fragile land. Then my wife starts reacting in the way your does (including bringing us to the edge of divorce, not being able to actually do it herself…) – and that’s what motivated me for this post. Her fear of you may actually be (or better to say: likely is mixed with) her own fear of her not being able to “live in Paradise”. Her pleading for “man you up” may actually be her pleading for you leading her gently through this fragile land of her own imperfect life. Blaming her of your PA is definitely not the way to go! (and I know I don't right need to say it here) But starting talking to her patiently about you both being responsible for your marriage (and you both be guilty – in most abstract sense – is unavoidable) and taking – you as the man – the risk of entering this conversation (and prepare for its consequences) may be…

I mean this post as a friendly attempt to help you in your situation and I excuse for my intrusiveness. I only express my experience from what I can recognize familiar from my own marriage (not necessarily connected to dealing with PA/SA). I hope it may help (or you can ignore it anyway ).

ps. WOW 2 days to 90! I am so envy…

 

Had to reply to this.... no. There is no one person who can provide/supply another or meet ALL of another persons needs. If you expected that from marriage then you are the one who was wrong. Only God can meet all of our needs. Also, you put the blame for his infidelity on his wife not being a person he could trust? He vowed to be faithful, he broke the covenant, he chose not to trust her. Obviously I don’t know if his wife is trustworthy or willing to try and meet his needs. I do know that I was trustworthy, totally willing to have sex with my hubby and he still chose porn. He couldn’t be honest because of HIS addiction and his relationship with his mother. All of us bring sone dis function to a relationship but an addiction to porn/sex is a whole other level of destruction.

 

Well, I love reading your journal and progress. I also acknowledge that I’m very touchy about blame being placed on the so because I see so many men justify their affairs/porn use with the “ my wife doesn’t meet my needs sexually “. Or better yet, my wife is no longer attractive! Given many of us so’s have actually been very pro sex and literally rejected repeatedly by our husbands. Your journal is one of my favorites to follow, I certainly wasn’t saying you thought this. Just countering budvap.

 

I agree with you, and I'll add this. Any PA who justifies their addiction by blaming their SO or anyone else for that matter doesn't understand the nature of addiction. That's not to say that the underlying causes of addiction can't be external or precipitated by another's actions, especially when trauma's involved, but recovering from addiction involves taking personal responsibility regardless of the underlying causes, and then working through any associated trauma that may exist. And I also agree with you that this journal is also one of my favorites to follow!

 

Oh, a lot have has happened here today…

I will try my best to clarify my previous post so we all see we really are on the same page here (sorry for the length again since it’s a lot of philosophy…):

I am far away from blaming my wife (or anybody) from my PA. Absolutely never ever! Similarly, I by no means expect from marriage that somebody could provide/supply another or meet ALL of another persons needs (and first of all I did not mean sexual needs). To the contrary, I wrote But it is not fair to demand that from her, right? But that is actually the point…

I struggled a lot in formulating it a way I intended and I am happy @mrtumnus apparently got the message. I understand how sensitive it is and I would hardly write it elsewhere. One has really go through this entire journal to see why I put it the way I did. I think @mrtumnus spoke for me in his post actually quite accurately.

Let me make just another risky step here. I do not know why but this journal really touched me deep inside so I am more personal than I should be. I mean, I am writing things as if you (all here) were my good friends that I would not normally post on forums, including this one, (for being too sensitive / misinterpretable)

It seems to me that @[Psalm27:1my light] is religious as well as I am. Please bear with me to the end of this message or another big misunderstanding may happen… Let me cite Matthew 7:1-5 here: Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? … First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Once I was thinking over this part deeply (not at all in the context of PA or even marriage) because I felt it is not about just seeing sins of others and overlooking ourselves'. As I understand it now, I guess the lesson is this: Taking the speck from one’s eye is a very sensitive and painful surgery. One must be very well trained to succeed without causing unbearable pain or irreversible damage to the other person’s eye. So one should first train a lot on himself/herself. Only if able to remove a plank from one’s own eye, then the one is skilled enough to remove the speck from the other person’s eye.

In other words, one is never skilled for forgiveness unless he/she understand his/her own needs for forgiveness. And without the real forgiveness to her PA partner, SO can never fully recover from that betrayal, which in the end only hurts her back. Yes, the betrayal hurts but the more our SOs can get lost in that pain.

What I mean (and you may prove me wrong) is that saying sorry to our SOs all the time does not really heal their pain. It somewhat covers it with something we definitely badly owe them, no excuses. But staying this way is actually the safer way for us – as husbands (notice that @mrtumnus was already - almost - at the day 90 when I was writing my post…). And it can lead the marriage into different trap in the long run. If we want to make our marriages healthy (and this applies whether or not PA is in the question), we - as the men - have to take all the risk, we really have to be strong enough to RISK ALL OUR NEEDS (which is, indeed, nothing but the lovely relationship with our SOs) and, now, the rest is written in my original post and I cannot express myself better here.

ps
God does not want us to fulfil one another’s needs. What I believe God want us is this (Matthew 18:21-35): Yes, I made a big mistake, sin, betrayal. I stopped doing this, regret it deeply and do all my best to deserve your forgiveness. Then, you really should(!) forgive me. If you do not, then you are making your own sin. And yes, the former is not worse than the latter since the latter is destroying Love and hurts just in the very same way. Anyway, if you are unable to forgive me, I should be able to bear with you and forgive you not forgiving me. And this is the very fragile circle of any relationship. The circle may either join or broke. Both ways are possible and opening again and again. This is the price we pay for knowing good-and-bad: for not living in Paradise. I believe this reality is something Adam should help to Eve with learning, acknowledging and living with… (if I am to stay on the spiritual note )

This SO's journal is very inspirative in that respect...

 

And one short for @mrtumnus

Thank you very much for this journal. It's highly inspiring to me. Both the way you go through it all and the way you treat your wife with all that patience. Not that I would deny my previous posts but you also help me to "correct" (so to say tune) my point of view