masturbation without porn

What documentation exactly?

So if I were to imagine, let's say, my girlfriend while masturbating, would that be considered a porn substitute or would that be considered using my imagination since I'm already romantically and sexually involved with that person?

The context always matters here. If you're thinking about porn actresses and what happens to them in your imagination, it's the same as watching pornography period. But if you're imagining an experience that you have already lived or you're imagining someone that you've been intimate with, it can't be considered porn because it's already happened in reality. I can masturbate thinking about what I want to do with my girlfriend the next time we have sex and then do the things I imagined with my girlfriend when we do have sex because I've already lived the experience.

If using your imagination while masturbating is considered a porn substitute then what the fuck would be the point of your sexuality to begin with?

 

I have read it in the NoFap documentation and elsewhere.

As I say, don't argue with me. Argue with them.

That's a non-sequitur. Also, it's not porn, because you're not watching it, but it's a p-sub, because you're using sexual fantasy, which raises your dopamine levels.

The point of sexuality is not to fantasise and masturbate. The point of sexuality is to have sex in order to spread your seed. That's why evolution created it.

 

You do realize, even by sensation and a blank mind, your brain receives a dopamine nuke by masturbating right? With or without porn, with or without imagination, your dopamine levels are going to be raised regardless. Using your imagination is not the same as porn, nor is it a porn substitute. I do agree with the fact that if you do however imagine porn actresses, imagine scenes with those porn actresses in your mind then it's pretty much just the same as watching porn.

Your sexuality depicts who you're attracted to, what you like and what your sexual behaviors are. Masturbation is something humans do to regulate their sexual urges when it becomes uncomfortable to deal with.
And how do you think sexual behaviors come about? How do you think people come up with stuff that they want to try? The fact that they want to try something "new" already indicates that they fantasize about it.

If you include yourself in your imagination with someone you've already had sex with or having sex with, there is absolutely zero porn-substitution going on.. You're not thinking about anything that relates to porn, you're being involved with your own sexual thoughts. Humans have sexual thoughts, sexual thoughts aren't pornographic unless your sexual thoughts start revolving AROUND porn.

Also, in the documentation NoFap says that masturbation isn't bad, according to the website, it takes a little longer to reboot. However the problem with this is every individual is different, one person can be insanely quick with their recovery, one person can have a mediocre time with their recovery and another can be very slow.

It doesn't mention anything relating to how using your imagination is a substitute to porn, apart from using common sense when your imagination during masturbation consists of reliving pornographic scenes in your own mind.. that is the only time it ever becomes a pornographic substitute.

 

As some have mentioned it depends on the context.

If you are "hooked" by masturbation and you NEED to do it, maybe feelings like shame are also connected to it and it's generally an avoidant behavior, then I agree that it's harmful in many ways even. "Avoidant behavior" as in trying to avoid/repress/fight/distract from difficult emotions and thoughts.

But if it is simply an expression of your sexuality, self-pleasure can be very healthy. Especially for those people that had a ton of shame connected to any form of sexuality while growing up and beyond. Relearning a healthy connection with a natural and healthy feeling.

The problem is that most people have immense difficulty 100% knowing whether they are actually engaging in avoidant behavior or simply learning to pleasure themselves and play and explore their sexuality.

THAT's where the focus should be. Learning to be very mindful about whether or not you are engaging in avoidant behavior. Whether that is with porn, food, video gaming, sex, sport or any other behavior. Some behaviors are more prone to becoming an avoidance technique than others, but if you go for the underlying principle you are able to break free regardless.
Why do you think so many guys simply replace hours of porn with hours of YouTube or Netflix or whatever when trying to drop porn? Because they are focusing on one specific behavior that is deemed "bad" instead of going for the underlying principle of what creates addiction. Namely avoidance.
So it's not about whether masturbation is or isn't bad, it's about how you engage with it.

 

Yes, I realise this.

Yes, but the degree is different. So is the association that the brain creates.

According to the documentation, correct, it isn't the same as porn, and incorrect, it is a p-sub. I repeat, argue with them, not with me. Personally, I'll consider researchers to be the better-informed people.

 

I'm not arguing with you, I'm trying to tell you that the "research" that you talk about doesn't include anything about your imagination being a porn substitute. You keep saying "NoFap" and "research" but the most popular porn addiction related websites don't mention anything relating to your imagination being a substitute to porn. The only time it mentions anything about an individuals imagination is when pornographic stuff such as reliving porn scenes in your own mind starts becoming the center of your imagination, to which they affirm that masturbating to pornographic thoughts is as bad as masturbating while watching porn, it doesn't say anything about one's actual proper sexual thoughts being a substitute for porn because the "thought" or "desire" isn't artificially created by super stimuli, which is porn in this case, instead it manifested through your own sexuality. If you masturbate to your own sexual thoughts (again, non-pornographic related) not only are you re-affirming that you can masturbate without the aid of porn, but you can actually picture yourself with another person.

 

Very interesting, I liked to edge for as long as I could and I've had prostate pain at times since 2018 even if all tests were ok. I actually thought the opposite, that the more I edged the less discomfort I'd get, how wrong I was... So good to know, another reason not to PMO, thanks for linking that article.

I have a doubt though, I've recently started and my penis became really really sensitive to the point at night I'd get erections and pre-cum just with the rub of the clothing. I can't help but kegel (contract the penis up) to alleviate the urge by leaking a bit. I don't touch it and I do my best to avoid dirty thoughts. Would that count as edging or is it just a normal urge? I fear that just by leaking brings back the prostate discomfort.

 

Sexual thoughts and feelings are normal and healthy. It's about whether or not you start to "obsess" about them. In any shape or form. Whether that is someone relentlessly and furiously masturbating to porn and unable to help themselves or as a righteous zealot that demonizes any and all sexuality except for the one and only circumstance.
Learn to enjoy your sexuality again instead of obsessing about it. If you obsess about it you are not free. Freedom simply can't come about by obsession.
Observe it while it lasts, let go of it and just accept it as a natural part of your body. Whether that's simply an expression of your sexuality or your mind and body working through the addiction. Keep an eye on the prostate pain and if it returns, then you do something about it and adjust your actions.
Hope that helps. Best wishes

 

Thank you. I definitely feel the crave for the dopamine rush, and being in bed at night alone is tough business! At least starting off from regular (even if not compulsive or anything) PMO.

 

You are welcome.

Sometimes, the right course seems counterintuitive. So websites like YBOP and scientific editorials are gold dust.

 

Sorry for the almost double post, but you know, it's crazy that nobody tells you these things. I remember being very young at school and they showed us a video about masturbation and that it was perfectly natural and safe to do as anyone wished. And I'm just now thinking that the urge is natural but masturbation is not, animals don't masturbate at all.

And all things oversexualized in life really: tv shows, internet, commercials, movies... It's like everything pushes you to compulsive sex and masturbation without limit telling you it's fine and even healthy. Not only sex but with other health issues as well like nutrition. Sad world we live in.

 

Yes, it is very true. I believe porn is not healthy in any form. But there is no doubt that it's most damaging form is viewed via high speed internet porn. It was when this emerged that young men - even teenagers - came forward in larger and larger numbers with ED (erectile dysfunction). As with many things in the past, the medical community is very sluggish in changing their view. I agree that a crucial way forward is education. It is far too simplistic to state, as the authorities do, that "masturbation is healthy". Sex education is very, very poor even in so-called developed Western countries.

Society has been more than just sexualised. It has been pornified! This all contributes to a fundamental disrespect between people for each other. Human beings have been relegated to pieces of meat to be penetrated. It is very sad.

 

That's not correct. A number of animals have been documented masturbating in the wild.

Of course, the differences are that they don't do it to porn; they don't do it addictively or obsessively or for hours on end; and they don't complicate things with shame, judgementalism and the like.

 

Well some like monkeys might, but yeah.

 

Not just monkeys
But I get what you mean.

 

if you play with fire you always get burned

 

I like how you cut out the most informative part of my post. I never mentioned anything about consuming porn, I was talking about how an individual can masturbate without porn once a week or however many times to choose, note the word individual.

Just because you have a problem with your porn consumption doesn't mean every individual out there has the same problem, there are people out there who watch porn once a month, hell probably even once every 3 months, i mean, do you know the population of the entire world? Are you saying that someone watching porn once every 3 months doesn't exist?

The point of that post, apart from saying that masturbating without porn is possible if you're healthy in mind and body and actually take care of yourself, was to bring awareness to the fact that your porn consumption isn't the thing that you should blame but instead the thing that you should be blaming is yourself. At the end of the day porn is a form of entertainment, I'm not saying that it's a good thing. I'm just saying that it is a form of entertainment just like how movies and stand up comedian shows/festivals are forms of entertainment albeit knowing what happens behind the scenes in porn is unsettling when you really know what's going on. But at the end of the day it is a form of entertainment, if it wasn't then people wouldn't be watching it or using it as a sexual outlet.

Also, telling someone that they can't control their porn consumption is the weakest argument you can come up with, there's a reason why discipline and moderation exists, there are people who can't moderate their use of things and there are people that can, and if you think that such a thing doesn't exist, not just for porn, then you're delusional as fuck.

Read and understand the point of the post before trying to construct an argument and telling me that I can't do this or can't do that like you know me better than I know myself, maybe you'd have a better chance of constructing an actual valid argument instead of a weak one.

 

@MangoDude , I also had interpreted your post somewhat differently from how you've explained it, so thank you for the explanation.

I beg to differ with your comment, "It's just a form of entertainment…"

Porn is a form of entertainment, yes, but it's not "just" a form of entertainment.

It's a supernormal stimulus ("superstimulus") that affects your brain in a powerful and negative way that ordinary entertainment doesn't. As this forum is primarily for porn addicts, this takes on a special emphasis. If this forum were specifically for adult non-addicts who truly did use porn only on the odd occasion, maybe a few times a year, your arguments would hold water. But not on a forum for porn addicts and including children who have been ensnared.

There is, of course, another aspect why porn isn't just a form of entertainment, and that's the unscrupulous actions of the business.

First, the way in which actors are used — porn harms not only its consumers but also its actors. I don't think that I have to elaborate here, as the extensive problems are well-known.

Second, the industry's attempts to block government legislation to prevent access by minors. This has been most noticeable in the UK, where the government has been attempting for a few years to get porn websites to block access to minors. Instead of cooperating, the porn industry has so far been thoroughly successful in preventing the legislation from being enacted.

 

What's wrong with coveting things?

 

It leads to a lack of contentment with what God has given you. Every possession we have is from Him, so to wander off coveting things, you are essentially saying that what you now possess is insufficient.

 

It leads to unhappiness. Attachment to material things, which in this context includes other women, is a source of discomfort or distress.

Aiming for something ethical and realistic is somewhat different, and can provide a goal and powerful motivation, as long as you aren't attached to the outcome.

If you aren't happy in your relationship, the right thing to do is to terminate it gently and with love. But be aware that if you think that changing or gaining a relationship will make you happy, it won't. You need to be happy in yourself first.