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Why Men Objectify Women

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Limeaid, May 17, 2015.

  1. Limeaid

    Limeaid Guest

    Thanks firdi! I agree completely! I also do not define femininity as pole dancing or overt sexuality but I do see femininity in part (the part I am talking about that leads to objectification) as sensuality in all that this encompasses. Dancing sensually to music for example in different ways. Iit is done in all cultures by women. I took a red tent course on the subject and this topic came came up as many women are afraid of their own sensuality and sexuality because of the shame and degradation surrounding it....because of pole dancers and porn and sexual abuse. We have taken something sacred and turned it into something more vile. Of course femininity is much more than this and although women can be "strong" true femininity is vulnerability. Being open emotionally to others to share love and affection. I agree that most women define femininity as sexuality or clothes or makeup and although this is part of it it isn't the whole picture, those are just feminine "markers".

    In my above post the men I was talking about said they went to strip clubs because the women were nice to them and they got to talk to women and experience feeling "cared for". I mean it is fucked up when you think about it but it is also really sad. They simply wanted to be around women and didn't feel like they could get that in their regular life. This is not to say that all men go there for that but it is shocking that some do! I always thought it was about T&A.
     
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  2. Limeaid

    Limeaid Guest

    I requoted this because at some level I really don't want to believe this to be true. I cannot live sanely in a world like this :( I just want to stay in my bubble of "jerks are jerks" and "nice guys are nice guys".
     
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  3. Bale

    Bale Fapstronaut

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    Has anyone ever heard the expression "object of a desire"? In every interaction language makes it clear that there is a subject, which is the source of the interaction, and an object, which is its destination. If I feel desire for my wife, then she is the object of my desire. Does it mean I consider her as an object? Of course not.

    I believe there is a confusion between these two definitions of the term "object" and we should be careful about what we call objectification. I am pretty sure women will always be the objects of men' desires and vice versa. Objectification, I believe, is the fact of systematically reducing the interaction between men and women to the sole aspect of physical desire. It will be no surprise if I add that both men and women are responsible for women' objectification. I take as a context local social conventions, which correspond to a set of implicit or explicit rules or behaviors associated with a particular place and time. For example, for a woman living in a muslim country, not covering her hair is breaking social conventions and there will be sexual connotations to the way she is dressed. This is why I think today's feminists are totally wrong when they call upon muslim women to make them abandon their traditions in the name of their freedom. Western conventions are not muslim conventions. However conventions evolve with time; there is a general movement towards more freedom even if it might sometimes go backwards temporarily.

    When I hear the most activist among feminists, it sounds like feminism is the new machism: the present revenge for centuries of male domination. This feminism is as brutal as castration. If women are objectified, machists say it is the fault of women, and feminists say it is the fault of men. Both raise valid arguments, but both also fail to reach a satisfying compromise. The truth is, there is no way of thinking separately about sexuality and social conventions. Both are intrinsically linked, until - and this is purely theoretical - a society manages to ensure the absolute emancipation of every individual. I believe the real problem today is that social conventions evolve too quickly and remain implicit or hidden for the most part. Society as a whole is responsible for blurring the barrier between the object of a desire and a sexual object.
     
  4. rich

    rich Fapstronaut

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    One of, if not the, most insightful thing I've seen on here...I strongly suspect I have been guilty of exactly this.
     
  5. Sorry Limeaid. I don't want to live in that world either. I can't believe that I once saw that sort of thing as normal. Men are really in a very very bad way in regards to their views of women. I guess you can take comfort in the fact that while some of the "nice guys" might be fantasizing about you, they still have enough of a consciousness left to prevent them from becoming jerks and to show you outward forms of respect. And where even a small sliver of consciousness is, there is hope. Most guys don't want to be like this, Limeaid. It is so tiring to be constantly thinking about sex and to be unable to have a conversation with women. I truly believe that we ache for intimacy.
     
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  6. Knight Solaire

    Knight Solaire Fapstronaut

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    It's is so hard not to blame all of the worlds problems on society. Everywhere we look there is something else smacking you in the face, saying just how horrible we all are.

    I'm so tried of the fact that I can't even watch the new fucking SpongeBob movie (just one example out of so many in my head right now) with it having triggering and objectifying content. It made me so sad when I found this out that I literally started to cry.

    This social sexual perversion has a firm grip on everything in the media. It scares me for the future.
     
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  7. himmelstoss

    himmelstoss Fapstronaut

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    Then would you say that compared to women men are not as human, perhaps more like objects?
     
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  8. Knight Solaire

    Knight Solaire Fapstronaut

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    I believe that to be jumping to conclusions. He was simply stating that women actually should get much more respect then they currently get.
     
  9. himmelstoss

    himmelstoss Fapstronaut

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    And how did you get that from much more respect than men?
     
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  10. Knight Solaire

    Knight Solaire Fapstronaut

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    Being a smartass have never done anyone any good so please, be serious here. I think that it scares you and anyone else for that matter that have a problem with @firdi 's statement that it might just be true that women aren't lower than you. Otherwise, what is the point of making such a statement about literally bringing the victimization back to men.

    Men have stumbled over women since the Stone Age. We have spit on them, degraded them, and treat them completely unfairly since whenever the hell this world was created. I know everything I am saying will probably fall on deaf ears, but I'll be damned if I set by and let the wonderful woman I love and women on here ever be criticized for just being women.

    I would like to mention that I didn't actually mean that you were criticizing, but it is pretty obvious that he didn't mean "let's make women better than men". I hope you can see my point and avoid being a smart ass this time. If you take me as rude, I apologize. I don't have patience for smartassery.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  11. beauty

    beauty Fapstronaut

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    I believe it is quite alright to admire a beautiful woman, no matter what the circumstances are. It is ingrained within our DNA, and a product of natural selection. The male counterparts of most species have survived by procreating with as many fertile females to ensure the greatest chance of the survival of their respective genes. Needless to say, porn is the greatest objectifier of both men and women on this planet, and the industry proceeds to grow by each passing day. So is it really a surprise to anyone that there is more objectification going on in today's world than ever?

    Perhaps I am simplifying this entire discussion, but it just seems so straightforward to me.
     
  12. I really like this definition of objectification. I would add, however, via mimetic desire, that the kind of desire and lust we find in objectified relationship is always provoked by the desire of another, the other being here a generalized male or female called the model. The model increases increases the desirability of the object. I don't think men would objectify women half as much if they didn't have a vague sense that another man might get her which in turn reduces her to her most desirable attribute, her sexuality. You start judging yourself against the supposed superior attributes of the model, a gorgeous accountant you could never approach in desirability. Thus you start to self objectify, depreciating your own looks and judging your life fully by your physical attributes. And of course since the model is so much superior to you in the art of getting women, the woman who was the object of your original desire becomes unattainable and so you resort to PMO so as to still be able to enjoy her.

    The problem is that this mimesis snowballs and more and more men desire women and become rivals to each other and start to threaten violence. They become antagonistic to each other and violence lurks. They look and see women as the cause of this violence. They then log on and watch pornographic videos of women being raped all while fapping. They orgasm, they feel better, peace has been restored. The woman in the video was the sacrificial victim. She was both the cause of the conflict and the bearer of the prodigious power to defuse the crisis and bring peace. The violence they were going to unleash upon each other they brought down upon her instead. That makes her sacred, otherwordly, somebody you could never relate to. She was the scapegoat.

    Thus violence against women is perpetuated because they have become the unattainable: an ultimate otherworldy super-concentrated object of pure pleasure. When men find that women don't live up to this image we have of them, they punish them for being the cause of the desire they can never fulfill.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2015
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  13. firdi

    firdi Guest

    Nice guys objectify women as much as the jerks. The problem with the nice guys is they believe the romantic movie love story themes fed into their minds and start thinking they have to 'court' a woman to seduce her. In their approach they will not show sexual interest at all, not have a sense of humor and hide the most attractive parts of their personalities and replace it with supplication. They think that buying expensive gifts for the woman will make her appreciate the provider part of their persona and they will brag about their achievements. Then they will try to buy affection by doing the household chores. They will tolerate her unjustified nagging and tantrums. All this is done for the same purpose - to get the object of desire into bed. But done through manipulative means akin to bribery and ensnarement. It hardly ever works because the feminine also includes a sixth sense to weed out losers. Sadly, almost all men are emasculated after marriage in today's society and loose their natural game. I think they go to strip clubs to regain some of the power lost because of how their wife treats them. At the same time, the woman gets the justification to go to the charming jerk, who's always on the prowl, for a one night stand.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2015
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  14. firdi

    firdi Guest

    @himmelstoss in case you've forgotten, it was a woman who carried you in her womb for nine months. Then loved you like nobody else ever will, sacrificing everything. This is why you respect her more.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2015
  15. Bale

    Bale Fapstronaut

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    You are talking about preselection here. Preselection also exists in the case of men, in the sense that a man is more likely to be desired by a woman if she sees him in company of other women. I wouldn't say that being in company of men makes a woman more attractive in general. It might make the act of seducing her more exciting though, because then you know you are competing more or less directly with one or more other guys.

    So you are saying that porn is the instrument for world peace. Should I jump to the conclusion that you are defending the porn industry?
     
  16. Knight Solaire

    Knight Solaire Fapstronaut

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    What is going on here? How did you get that? I don't understand at all how anyone thinks it okay to jump to conclusions. I have lived a long period of life jumping to conclusions and having them made about me so I have come to hate that notion.

    Where did world peace come into this? In no way was he defending porn.
     
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  17. Bale

    Bale Fapstronaut

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    Perhaps the phrase "instrument for world peace" was purposely exaggerated. When I read this paragraph from mumchance's post I read the transpiring idea that "porn is useful to society". I have given him the benefit of the doubt from the start and would like to hear his own explanation on the matter.
     
  18. Jay435

    Jay435 Fapstronaut

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    Men and Women. Neither of which deserve anything. Just because you are born one way or the other does not change that or automatically mean that one gender is inferior or more deserving than the other. It is about having a mutual respect for one another. And every single human here today man or woman can be whomever they want to be and they should be themselves. Not everyone is going to like you and you're not going to like everybody else. I've met many girls who are 'Tom boys' and are some of the coolest girls I know. Not every guy likes that in a girl, the same way not every woman likes a man who is very in touch with their 'emotional side'. It all comes down to the individuals mind set. And how YOU view people. If you have a mindset which creates a gender stereotype which belives someone is excpected to be a certain way based on their gender or any other pyhsical defining attribute of your current beliefs then you're already guilty of causing inequality. People should have the freedom to act and express themselves in what ever way they would like too aslong as they're not taking or harming the freedom of others.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
  19. Moxie

    Moxie Fapstronaut

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    Yes. History tells us societies have long idolized men with extreme ambition, drive for worldly prestige, victory, success, with scant regard to what we would think of as ethical norms. The ancient Sumerian myth of Gilgamesh tells of a bull-like man with no rival who slept with any young women he wanted to:

    "In Uruk the Sheepfold he would walk about,
    Show himself superior, his head held high like a wild bull.
    He had no rival, at his pukku
    His weapons would rise up, his comrades have to rise up.
    The young men of Uruk became dejected in their private quarters.
    Gilgamesh would not leave any son alone for his father.
    Day and night his behavior was overbearing. . . .
    He is the shepherd of Uruk the Sheepfold,
    Powerful, superb, knowledgeable, and expert,
    Gilgamesh would not leave young girls alone,
    The daughters of warriors, the brides of young men.

    The same Sumerians worshiped the moon god Nanna-Sin, and goddess of love Ishtar. Both male and female prostitutes from the temple priesthood were used in sexually charged ceremonies. The moon temple had female priests, who would stimulate a young male volunteer with titilating dances, caresses, and coitus. In Ishtar's temple, male priests would perform a similar ceremony with a young female playing a role as sacrificial victim. Sumerians were not above human sacrifice in the name of agricultural fertility and procreation. After the ceremony the "scapegoat" would sometimes be killed. The Sumerians believed that like the moon cycles, human beings returned to live many lives, which is why they were disposable.

    The ancient Jews sacrificed animals to receive God's forgiveness, instead of humans because they believed in the dignity of the individual human soul. They believe in one birth, life, and death.

    Christians believe Jesus was the one, ultimate sacrifice for all of humanity's sins, which is why we receive holy communion every Sunday, instead of sacrificing animals.

    Blood sacrifice is historically ingrained in our human cultural DNA. It makes sense that we have a built in ceremonial sacrifice setting in our daily routines. The Jews, however, were the first people to believe in the dignity of the individual soul, and the personal spiritual journey of the individual. They are the ones who institutionalized marriage of one man and one woman, and fidelity between the couple, and the metaphysical consequences of disobedience.
     
  20. DannyCool

    DannyCool Fapstronaut

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    There seems to be a cycle of anger and desire. That is what Mumchance is saying me thinks. If you reduce anger desire is easier to break. Even the most rich people in the world cannot satisfy their desire. You are basically trying to find something that is not there. The alchemist is a good book about this. Finding gold at the end of a rainbow. If you are angry you keep using the anger to find that happiness that is not true. The women is trapped and the man is controlling. I have been there myself.
     
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