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P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. TheRetainer

    TheRetainer Fapstronaut

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    Day 113. I had a Really good week From 100 and since then I’ve slumped. Have been trying to work out why. Was it the alcohol I drank, was it that I’ve been edging during sex two time’s? Was it my return to work... Or is it just flatline returning. It was the longest good window I’ve had, usually only lasts a day but I felt good for several.

    I’m not as bad as I was before. My main symptom is physical exhaustion and tiredness. Tinnitus is louder and constant. Lost most of motivation. Slowly spending more time in bed and isolating again.

    my voice is noticeably deeper, especially in the mornings at the minute.

    frustrating I was doing really well and looking forward to future. Then for no Apparent reason I’ve just sunk right back down.
     
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  2. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    So almost at 17months, with two isolated relapses (no binging, and 2nd relapse was sex and MO).

    It's almost 3 weeks since last relapse, and in a pretty hard flatline, although mainly just anxiety/stress, and the brain throbbing. I had for the first time a shortness of breathe and anxiety when faced with a semi-intense convo, Ive not had this type of anxiety in 6 months or so, indicating CNS stress and damage from last relapse. It's completely nuts how semi-intense convos are sending me into sheer panic, maybe its karma; 5 years ago I could have public debates, and now I get panic when having to speak 121.

    I genuinely believe im one of the worst cases, I've had a continuous 24/7 daily brain throbbing for nearly 17 months now. Life is manageable you kind of just get used to everything.

    Still optimistic within the next 3-6 months things will change for me, just my intuition on my journey. Will keep checking in to give you guys updates. Currently rocking monk mode again.

    I can only say extreme monk mode is the best most holistic way for me. If you give in just 1% it just subconsciously creeps up on you month by month, you really do have to go the whole 9 yards. Over the past 17 months I've had monk mode streaks of 8months and 5 months or there abouts, and they were mentally the most peaceful parts of my journey.

    You have to be militant; no insta, you have to ignore girls who msg you, as it will eventually lead to sex thoughts and fantasy in my case, and just let go of all lust for the opposite sex in everyway

    Ill keep you all updated on my journey, my theory is there is a micro and macro element to this recovery, and small relapses only effect the micro conditions (temporary anxiety stress etc), and only slightly increase the macro (overall recovery goes form 18 months to 19 months for example). This will be a good test, as Im 3 weeks from last relapse, and by the time I get to 90 days Ill be around 18.5months in, and we can see the rate of progression/recovery over the next 9 weeks.

    Just want to note Ive not had erections in 6-8 months. Thats what kind of caused my last relapse, just despair of not knowing a way out
     
  3. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    It really depends on where your symptoms are coming from. It sounds like they are coming from PMO still. The tinnitus you are experiencing is from stress, though it could also be unrelated to PMO.

    Definitely stay away from edging if you can, especially to pornography.

    Hang in there.
     
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  4. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Was your relapse with P or without P?

    I have had the shortness of breath and extreme anxiety all throughout my reboot. It is still there and it is a horror to deal with.

    I had the exhaustion, lack of motivation, social anxiety, depression and most of the other symptoms well before i even started nofap. For me the flatline kicked in very early on in my addiction so it has lasted 8 + years at this point. Right before i found nofap i was at my worst. I didnt have PIED, but i did have all of the withdrawal symptoms common on here now. At my most desperate point in life i found nofap and finally everything clicked. I saw multiple doctors and spent thousands of dollars trying to find what the cause for my symptoms were and everything checked out fine, so i took matters into my own hands and here we are. After a week or two on nofap my symptoms got significantly worse and thats when i was introduced to depression and man was it rough. Physical withdrawals were brutal and i had all the common withdrawals mentioned plus even more that i had not seen before. My first year was full of relapse and relapses just seemed to make my withdrawal more painful and even longer. I started to get longer streaks, but relapses after a long streak made my withdrawal even worse again. That brings me to where im at today. Ive never been out of the flatline/withdrawal (coming up to 4 years since i found nofap), except maybe for a few days over the last 4 years. Except now where it feels like my flatline semi-ended this month, though i don't know what that means for my remaining symptoms.

    I believe most of us on this post are the 1% of rebooters who have had the roughest time. We are the 1% of the 1% as i like to think of it.

    I agree with you that social media is a big no, especially within the first 6 months i would say. our brains are so sensitive in those initial stages that it is very difficult to just overcome a triggering image.

    There is a way out my friend you just have to keep hanging in there. If we do the right things then eventually we will see results. Stay away from P at all costs
     
  5. Indurian

    Indurian Fapstronaut

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    I've followed this thread closely for a while, and it's a great reference where longterm symptoms are still present. Some people in the PAWS threads are virtually recovered, while others are still struggling with various symptoms (despite long term abstinence). With respect to my own situation, from a near daily habit in my teens and 20's I've gradually tapered off my porn use, and fortunately haven't touched it in nearly a year and a half. While I do still experience symptoms they have lessened a lot.

    For my own reference I've rated below my various symptoms on a 1 to 10 basis (10 being worst), contrasting how I was at the peak of my porn use / suffering, and how I am now. Progress is sometimes very slow and it can be difficult to identify improvements in our lives. I've done this in the hope that it demonstrates that I / we are on the right path. My life is not perfect but you can definitely see a fairly dramatic change in most areas. It hopefully also acts as concrete proof re the veracity of Nofap.

    The categories listed seem to be common to everyone who has had a problem with porn / giving it up.

    Anhedonia. Before 8. Now 3.
    General anxiety. Before 9. Now 4.
    Social anxiety. Before 10. Now 2.
    Anxiety talking to women. Before 9. Now 0.
    Anger. Before 10. Now 3.
    Depression. Before 7. Now 2.
    Lustful thoughts. Before 8. Now 2.
    Hypochondria. Before 9. Now 3.
    Racing thoughts. Before 9. Now 3.

    I guess these are all subject to change depending on what life throws at me, but I would say they are a fairly accurate baseline representation.

    One caveat. I don't think that giving up porn, lust and masturbation are the sole cause of these improvements. I've made many other changes which have helped. I do however believe that being free of porn is integral to mental, spiritual emotional wellbeing and I wouldn't have seen these improvements by making lots of other lifestyle changes while retaining a porn habit.
     
  6. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Congrats on your success. It must be a hell of a thing just to get rid of most of your anxiety, especially talking to women.

    Can i ask how many months you have been PMO free? Also has there been any slips during that time?

    Progress is certainly slow and it can be difficult sometimes identifying any progress at all. It is easy to lose hope when you feel like no progress is being made. Progress, in other areas of life gives us motivation to keep going. I think we are entitled to lose hope from time to time, but not to give up. There is a big difference there.
     
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  7. Indurian

    Indurian Fapstronaut

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    Been PM free for 17 months. No slip ups fortunately. I would say that I property started trying to give up in about 2013 and had numerous relapses for a good few years. I never discovered nofap until early 2019
     
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  8. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    My last relapse was basically 2 days on tinder, a lot of dirty talking and fantasising, then had a girl over didn't actually have sex just foreplay (MO), then the next 3 days 3-4x MO to fantasy (less then 1-2 minutes masturbating) out of despair and frustration, decided I don't even like MO that much and literally don't care if I ever orgasm again and then back on monk mode.

    I much prefer the chase with real girls, the dirty talk, sexting etc to porn or orgasm. I should say I was a massive sex addict as well as porn addict (300-500 sexual partners), so my battle is both virtual and real.

    I guess thats what its reduced down to now at this point in recovery, it always starts when I start to feel better, Ill start talking to girls etc which leads in one direction. Gotta stay strong until fully recovered.

    I haven't had a full 90 days monk mode in like 4-5 months, just streaks of 40-60 days then like 3-7days talking to girls, tinder, etc which causes fantasising, and then Id stop and go monk mode again, but all this talking to girls, tinder etc would make my symptoms temporarily worse

    There's not a shred of self doubt or hatred, I have done the best I could do, and continue to do so, whatever will be will be, still confident I will heal, but just not sure when. Im back on the horse now, and will track recovery progress over next 3-6 months.
     
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  9. Mr. Kruger

    Mr. Kruger Fapstronaut

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    The elites love caffeine because it's a drug that keeps the wageslaves productive, but is very unlikely to kill you.
     
  10. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    I think that in your case tinder may be doing more harm than good, especially since this addiction is potentially linked with sex addiction.

    The one thing i find strange is that even people who have sexual experience seem to still get these symptoms. If anything regular sex alongside a P addiction may have made things worse. It seems so in my case that's why i decided to go full monk mode.
     
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  11. TheRetainer

    TheRetainer Fapstronaut

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    Each of us seem sensitive to different things and react differently to various paths to perhaps a humans ultimate reward which ultimately is orgasm.

    How we have come to acheive orgasm and be addicted to it seems to vary. Most people on here watch porn to start the process of being aroused, to masturbate and then acheieve the ultimate evolutionary goal of orgasm. These people feel symptoms just thinking of porn, or just looking at it for a few moments.

    There are addicts who associate engaging in face to face contact with women to the dopamine fueled path to orgasm.
    Some just need to swipe on tinder to get that dopamine feeling which drives us to orgasm.
    There are strange people in the world that get the same feelings when looking at children, even some which are aroused by inanimate objects.
    Some look at men and get on the sex pathway, some women.

    Personally, I feel Ive been addicted to orgasm my whole life. Without ever really having a libido. I have no arousal pathway. I Can look at porn, feel nothing, have a hot girl all over me and feel nothing. My whole childhood I simply mechanically masturbated myself to orgasm often completely flaccid. I did it just to achieve that final reward - orgasm. ORgasm feels better than any drug or experience to me. It feels like a itch in my crotch that is pleasent to scratch but doesnt really involve other people, attraction, porn, etc. IT is just how I have been programmed to achieve that reward.

    In my opinion (as it currently stands) it is acheiving the ultimate reward of orgasm to often that damages us. We all have different reward pathways, and it seems porn and its never ending novelty is the most common and damaging. From a human perspective it makes sense that we are driven to orgasm, it makes sense that we are driven to orgasm with as many different partners as possible to populate the world. Any of us that have been in long term relationships will know that sex gets boring with the same person, we are attracted to someone new, and that is part of our biological drive. It is why porn is so arousing to most. Novelty, endless new partners. This pushes most to keep on getting the dopamine that leads us to orgasm, over and over.

    Porn is the ultimate dopamine fuel, but I beleive its more the orgasming to often which is causing the damage.

    I trained myself to enjoy orgasm with basic fantasy just to get hard then mechanically stimulate myself to orgasm. Often with no fantasy. I dont get horny just this weight in the crotch, that leads me to masturbating to release. But with my mildly obbsessive personality I kept on orgasming over and over damaging myself with no porn. Orgasm through sex, masturbation with or without porn makes me feel the exact the same.
     
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  12. TheRetainer

    TheRetainer Fapstronaut

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    The one thing that is notably improved on now day 115 is my voice. Before nofap, it would go deeper after regular orgasms, then go back to being nasally and weak. In the last few weeks ive noticed it is deeper more often. It seems to go back to nasally sometimes usually after exercise or maybe eating alot. It is nice to be able to see something that is a definite improvement.

    I would say im in a similar place now with ZERO orgasm and little sexual stimulation to what I was before NoFap with regular sex and masturation a few times a week. Thats good I guess that I have a bareable level of well being without having to orgasm. When I was doing regular MO, I was up and down alot much like I am now, probably with lower lows, but also higher highs. From the start of Nofap everything crashed, with only very small windows of relative greatness. Since passing day 100 I think my baseline dopamine or whatever it is, is averaging similar to when I started. But without having to rely on MO (my drug) to get by.
     
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  13. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    I agree with most of your post, especially the part about novelty.

    I have to disagree with this statement though. For the vast majority of us on here P is our problem and not masturbation or orgasm. There are some struggling with just masturbation addiction, sure but just remember that nofap and related sites are P addiction recovery sights and have no problems with masturbation or orgasm. There is a good reason why sites like yourbrainonporn.com offer so much research into P addiction, rather than focusing on the M or O.

    You can overtax your body by to many orgasms, for sure. The physical recovery from that is much quicker than you would think. Just a few weeks and the body can return to normal. What takes longer is your brains ability to balance itself out back to what it once was, hence why we see these long reboots.

    These days an orgasm has little affect on me. Maybe ill be tired a little for the next day but i am no longer being sent into a dreadful flatline after a wet dream. I know it would be different if i were to persue P again, even without M or O i would guess. Im not going to find out.
     
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  14. A lot of people on this site refuse or in denial that they have an issue with masturbation and orgasm instead of porn only. If p is the bigger problem, why people who work inside a pornshop or a people who distribute porn catalog never have or report any problem relating to dopamine.

    I could watch p I I want to... However the moment fluid start coming out, brain fog intensifies and back pain start getting worse.
     
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  15. Porn is the issue for most. The chemicals come from the novelty that porn provides. Dopamine is a seeking chemical, not a satiation one, meaning that we're hooked on finding that "perfect video", or, as our brains perceive it, that perfect mate. If we weren't wired to seek girls out, then we would be biological failures, because we'd have sex with one girl, feel satisfied, and be done with it. That's like a tree only dropping one acorn--it's not going to survive as a species. We, as humans, are hardwired to shoot off acorns all over the place, because that gives us a better chance at successful reproduction. Dopamine is the crux of the matter, and dopamine is all about that search. Gary Wilson talks about this at length at yourbrainonporn.com. Reading that site is a must in my book.

    Edging is a more detrimental action than having an orgasm when it comes to this addiction because we are keeping our dopamine levels high as hell for extended periods of time. It's like a three hundred foot line of coke that we snort without breaks in between--just one long inhale. It's about having 20 tabs open at once, and cycling through video after video after video. Our brains are cooked, or at least mine is. I'm over 9 months and still feel like absolute shit for most of the day, every day. And it's because of the porn.

    For those who believe otherwise, then God bless. But I don't think it's fair to make your claims and act as if science is an ugly girl at the party that we can ignore. Our boys in the white house have already got that shtick covered.
     
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  16. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut


    please look for your arguments elseware.
     
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  17. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    To throw in my 2 cents, from my own experience in the last few years, I do think you can have a serious problem with MO even if you are porn free. I knew I had a porn problem for a long time that actually affected my health to some degree (12 years ago), but was in denial about the fact that I also had a MO problem until about 3 years ago, and even then it took a while to accept. Apart from anything, I could edge for a fair amount of time without porn (and had been since I was a kid), and this (IMHO) is what really fries the synapses. Porn just makes that easier to do, and internet porn even more so, for far longer periods of time, which makes the problem more obvious. Maybe for some people just quitting porn is enough for them to see the improvements they need. I now know, for me at least, this isn't enough, and I need to go hardmode.

    Part of what helped me understand this was reading "Cupids Poison Arrow" by Marnia Robinson (aka Mrs Gary Wilson!). This really highlighted the negative effects that orgasm alone can have, even in moderation, in women as well as men.

    I wouldn't go so far as to describe Gary Wilson's work as "pseudo-science" or "bunk". I just think that in Gary's case, he is focused on porn because that's what people were flagging up to him as being a problem 10 year ago. I'm pretty sure, given what Marnia writes in her book, that he is aware of the potential for non-porn MO to mess people up. And on YBOP he seems to be working very hard on using peer-reviewed journal articles to back up his ideas (for example, specifically on withdrawal: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...-reporting-withdrawal-symptoms-in-porn-users/ ). This work does focus on porn rather than MO, but give it time - I think the scientific consensus about the potential harm of compulsive orgasm / edging will change in the decades to come, if the right people start asking the right questions. At the moment what seems to be preventing that is that there is too much taboo and shame (oh the irony!) about questioning a pro-sex or P/MO position, so the science hasn't been done yet.
     
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  18. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    This is very confusing...
     
  19. AspiringVitality

    AspiringVitality Fapstronaut

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    I am def not addicted to sex :emoji_joy:
    Thats for sure

    It is a very personal thing, some people have more problem with the dopamine/edging/porn. Others have more problems with orgasms/MO/testosterone. The mix between these differs per person.

    I can masturbate and edge to kinky stuff for many hours nonstop. I don't want the orgasm, I want to delay it as long as possible while keeping myself just before that point of no return.

    Other people orgasm 3-10x per day because thats their addiction.

    C'mon guys we all know this already.

    Acknowledge each others experience. What do you try to accomplish by saying "this or that is bollocks"..? We don't have to endlessly repeat our own views. One time is enough. This thread is about PAWS
     
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  20. You're just one of those guys
    I'm with you on acknowledging each other's experiences, but I'm not going to allow people to spread misinformation, because the correct info is straight up POWER. Knowing what's happening inside of our brains is a tremendous advantage in this battle--it allows us to eliminate the seemingly esoteric nature of this addiction. With knowledge, we realize that it isn't some demon, or ghost, or unknowable entity. It's pathways in the brain that have been deeply sensitized. And yes, orgasm is part of it, but the porn is the shit that's causing the PAWs. People with regular old sex addictions do not get PAWs like I do.

    There's also science behind pornography's use of elements that are bigger, longer, more violent, weirder, more disturbing, shocking, etc--all of which tinker with the release of dopamine. There have probably always been men who have been addicted to orgasms throughout history, but never has there been this new, PAWs-riddled, frighteningly seductive version of sex addiction until recent times, and that's because of porn. It fucks with our brains in ways that we can't handle. It hijacks our reward system because we were wired to kill animals from the movie "Ice Age" and to spread our seed when we could. It wasn't meant to watch a double feature of quadruple gang-bangs and whatever other disgusting shit is out there (sorry if this is triggering).

    And I'm willing to stake my life on the fact that most people on these forums and subreddits are here because they can't stop watching porn, not because they can't stop jerking off to SEARs magazines or fantasies based on their own life experiences.

    Porn is the main killer here, and there is a lot of science to back that up. And I'm not going to budge on that, because I truly want other people to succeed in this fight, and they need to know what is going on in their own heads. Our brains are organs, and there is a rhyme and reason to our issues.
     

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