I hate seeing attractive single women at church.

I can't defend a claim I never made. I don't know what to tell you other than you're digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole.

 

"Carry each other's burdens. And in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2

You'll see how silly this all was later. If you don't already.

 

Agreed. Some people just can't handle that people who disagree with then might actually have brains too, so they just have to assume that you're just saying stuff to "fit in" or because you're being fake somehow. A lot of false assumptions and judgements. But I'm with ya, dude (well, except for the Trump part... lol). Don't let the negativity get you down.

 

I've already shared my views on a lot of these things, and neither of you seem to acknowledge that or care. So why would anyone else continue to try to explain something that you clearly have no interest in trying to see any differently than you already do?

 

You have shared your views and I appreciate that, however, every time we were getting somewhere you would deflect by saying we're going off topic, but not before you put in your last word. Sorry, but what you're saying is a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

If I'm asking him to explain then clearly I have an interest, right? I don't see how you get to assume something about me and then claim you're justified in thinking that way when I've shown no indication that I'm closing myself off from seeing your viewpoint.

 

Lmao, so he gets to insult other people, call them cucks, and make false accusations and you tell him to not let the negativity get him down?

 

Not intentionally. Point taken, too. Even though the Apostle Paul does write some things you've quoted, I do think they are taken out of context and only intended as commentary for missionaries in the ministry and not as whole-life commitments. I like that you are reading and quoting the good word. How far can we go wrong if we stay close to God? Hopefully not far, and hopefully we all remain friends as we strive to love one another.

None of us are "good" men. All mankind is fallen. Like all Israel went astray.. right? Sinners. But, still brethren. I do not believe saying a mother or father is a good calling in marriage, and that a ministry without marriage is better still. Nope. Nothing can convince me that the entire design of Adam/Eve and all of 'nature' is wrong. I noticed you didn't respond to that concept about being commanded to bear fruit. Even the trees and anything living must procreate or it will cease to exist as a species.

 

Hey Vx. No hard feelings man.

I think you seem to have read 1 Cor 7. You've definitely read my comments on it.

With that in mind you can rightly conclude my stance on God's command for Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply and God's good pleasure in his original design of procreation.

I think 1 Cor 7 sums up the accurate Christian perspective. I think consensual sex is perfectly good and holy in marriage.

But I think celibacy in a pure pursuit of Christ is objectively better. Though it's clearly not required by the text.

It intentionally prevents more distractions from receiving and sharing God's spirit and both Jesus and St. Paul say it's perfectly ok to choose celibacy for that reason.

Look at what Job's wife said to him after God allowed Satan to ruin their family and home. Imagine if Job obeyed her over his faith in God.

Imagine what Mary must've felt when Joseph at first believed she lied about being a virgin yet still pregnant with Christ. Imagine how she must've hated hurting him because of following her faith.

Look at how Eve was tempted by the Serpent and Adam was then tempted by Eve to disobey God in Eden.

There are times when married men and women should disagree with their spouses and go against their wishes if they believe they do so for the greater good. The will of God.

Celibate believers, male and female, don't face that problem. They don't have to waste time on issues like that.

Most obviously, look at our Lord and many of his disciples who never married yet lived happily on Earth and live happily for Eternity with him and in him now.

Heaven and the coming new Earth are far superior to this current fallen Earth according to scripture. Eden was perfect but our first parents ruined perfection and we are living in that ruined perfection now.

So I think it's better, I think scripture plainly states this, and I think I've stated logical reasons for thinking this.

All that said lifelong celibacy is no goal of mine for now. My previous posts show this lol.

I'm just admitting what I clearly see in scripture regarding it.

 

But your views seem to be more in line with the Acts of Paul and Thecla rather than actual scripture. It seems to me that you're really bitter and are taking out all of your anger on women. The idea that all 'beautiful' women are vain is a complete generalization. I think it's unlikely you've met every 'beautiful' woman in the world.

But maybe I should stop calling myself a Christian since I don't believe in everything in the Bible since some historical findings cause me to doubt certain scriptures.

 

How so? I acknowledged the points you made and countered them. You ignored mine completely. We are not the same.

I still don't understand why you think this. The only thing in the Word that supports that idea is Paul's words, which are very clearly just his opinion. If you would say that this is your opinion, then fine. But to say it is objectively better and try to claim that Jesus himself said so, is simply not true.

I completely disagree. Being married has changed my spiritual life so much, mostly for the better. To learn how to love someone unconditionally in the realm of marriage gives you so much more of a clearer understanding of God's love. I would say the same of having a child, although I don't have children. I would imagine the love of a parent and child is the closest we could ever come to understanding how God loves us. I think that's immensely valuable, and something you wouldn't have if you remained single. Not that I think there's anything wrong with remaining single. I just disagree that it's "objectively better" than getting married. For some people it is better, which is what Paul is saying, but it's not "objectively better," period.

But he didn't... because clearly it's possible to be married and still have a good relationship with God.

And then that situation worked out for the betterment of BOTH of them, and Joseph was able to be a part of something amazing. And Mary was able to have a supportive husband help her raise a child, rather than being alone. You're cutting out the rest of all these stories, and the rest of the stories are incredibly relevant.

First of all, who's to say that Adam wouldn't have been tempted by the serpent himself if Eve wasn't there? And secondly, bringing up Adam and Eve just makes me think of my previous point, which was ignored, that God specifically created Eve because He said it was not good for man to be alone. So how does that support your theory that it's better to be single? If that were true, why would God have even created Eve in the first place?

I agree. And they are capable of doing that.

That's true, but who's to say that's better? Is it better to never face trials? I would say, in a situation in which my husband is saying one thing and God is saying the other, praying over the matter and seeking God for clarity and ultimately choosing His will over my husband's would be an incredible growing experience. I would imagine I would be even closer to God in the end. So how is that worse than being single, and just not having to deal with that? More importantly, how is that a "waste of time"?

Yes, that's true. Because for some people, celibacy is the right way for them. Nobody here is denying that.

Also, you have no idea if they were happy. You have no idea if they wanted wives and struggled with the loneliness of being celibate. Hell, maybe some of them even struggled with masturbation, due to a lack of sexual outlet. Obviously thus is just speculation, but the point is, you don't know that their lives were happy.

You think it's better, yes. You have given some valid reasons for thinking its better, yes. But you absolutely have NOT given evidence that "scripture plainly states" that celibacy is better than marriage. And in your search for proof that you're opinion is correct, how many verses about marriage have you glossed over? From my view of reading scripture, marriage seems pretty dang important to God. So I can't see how anyone could read His word and come to the conclusion that celibacy is better than marriage. Which one is talked about infinitely more often? That, alone, should be a sign of its importance and value to God.

It's funny you say that, given the judgemental spirit you seem to have for people who disagree with you on this. If you truly believe that celibacy is the better way, for everyone, including yourself, why wouldn't you pursue that path? That doesn't make much sense.

Exactly.

 

Well as Shefali Tsabary said having a child is one of the greatest spiritual disciplines. I've also heard people say that they didn't realise how selfish they were until they got married.

 

I can definitely relate to that. Being married has opened my mind so much to how God loves us, and to the meaning of unconditional love and love being a choice, a commitment, not just a feeling. I think those lessons are incredibly valuable, so I can't see how someone can claim that being celibate is objectively better than all the great lessons and spiritual growth one can experience from a marriage. Then again, it's worth noting that I don't think this person is married, so perhaps he's just speaking from ignorance of the spiritual benefits of a marriage.

 

Please show me which points you countered and which I ignored. From the discussion I can see we both made points, we both countered each other, and when I would counter you, you would pull the off topic card.

 

CassTeaElle. I've admitted more than once here the holy, good, perfectly acceptable choice to have consensual sex in marriage and you've seen that. That is reason enough for me to want and try to attain it. It makes sense.

Even if I never attain it due to my own mistakes.

"I think 1 Cor 7 sums up the accurate Christian perspective. I think consensual sex is perfectly good and holy in marriage.

But I think celibacy in a pure pursuit of Christ is objectively better. Though it's clearly not required by the text."

I agree with what St. Paul (who wrote much of the NT by himself), most prominent theologians, the East and Western Orthodox and Catholic churches, and even many Protestant pastors openly, blatantly teach concerning marriage as being Godly and great, but virginity being greater.

Praises for celibacy are present in other chapters and verses. Revelations 14 and various verses in Proverbs.

My initial statement concerning the vanity of beautiful women is what has upset you.

Let me clearly state the Bible says nothing about all beautiful women being vain. Let me restate the fact that I corrected that opinion later. You saw that.

The Bible does say that beauty itself is vain in Proverbs 31. But nowhere does the Bible say that beautiful women are all vain and I never said it does in case anyone is confused about this.

It was a personal opinion that my experience from dating 2 particularly beautiful, church going women and dealing with many other non-church going women in my (weak) PUA days led me to believe. But it occurred to me after reviewing these things last night after work that I was just as vain in other ways and I'd probably be vain about my body if I was a beautiful woman too.

I believe you've gone out of your way to neglect sharing my praises for marriage. I believe you were still angry about my initial mistaken comment when doing so. I believe you've encouraged some unnecessarily foul language in this thread. And I believe you understand yet aren't sharing the many, many merits of intentional celibacy.

 

Well at least you're finally admitting that it's simply an opinion and belief, and not at all something Jesus himself said is the right way, as you orignally claimed.

Praises for celibacy do not mean that celibacy is better than being married... It simply means that it is also an acceptable, respectable choice. Aside from Paul's opinon, I have not seen anything in the entirety of the Bible that would lead me to believe that celibacy is better than marriage.

Why are you bringing this up? This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about. Yet again, you're acting as if anyone who disagrees with you must be doing so because they're just secretly irrationally still mad about something else that's completely unrelated. Not the case. I disagree with you because you're wrong in claiming that the Bible says that celibacy is better than matrimony. Not because I'm petty and can't get over your insults to women.

Because those praises are meaningless when you still claim that the Bible says celibacy is better. I understand that you think marriage is good and that the Bible says marriage is good, too. That is irrelevant to the issue I have with your statement. I'm "ignoring" that because I'm trying to stay on topic of the part that I actually disagree with.

You can believe that if it makes you feel better, but it has nothing to do with my disagreement with your claim of the Bible saying celibacy is better than marriage.

Okay? Your point? You have said some pretty awful things, and I don't think you're a particularly great person either. But that's not relevant to this discussion.

I literally have never said that there are no merits to celibacy. Your entire comment to me just now is completely made up of strawman arguments. None of it is relevant at all. I never said there aren't any merits to celibacy. Of course there are. I haven't brought them up, because yet again (how many times do I have to say it?) It has nothing to do with the statement you've made that I disagree with. The only issue I have here that is relevant to this discussion and worth talking about, is the claim that "the Bible (or God) says that celibacy is BETTER than marriage." Not that celibacy is good or acceptable, but BETTER than marriage.

You know how to read. I'm not going to waste my time showing you things you're capable of reading on your own. If you don't understand the points I've made that you have ignored and not addressed, fine. This conversation with you is going nowhere, and it is a waste of my time. You can call that deflection all you want, I don't really care. I'm done wasting my time arguing over who didn't address what and who ignored whom, etc.

 

Here's how it is, @EyesToSeeEarsToHear... you've made a claim, and therefore the burden of proof is on you to back up that claim with facts. You claim was that the Bible makes it very clear that celibacy is a better choice than matrimony. That's your claim, and you need to prove that. Every verse or portion of verses you have given to back up that claim have fallen short. In Paul's case, that is very clearly his opinion and not meant to be taken as a direct word from God, to all or humanity. And in every other verse you've provided, it says absolutely nothing of celibacy being BETTER than marriage. Nothing at all. They simple say that celibacy is also an option and is also good. So I don't think it's on me to continue to try to prove you wrong, when you still haven't even succeeded in proving yourself right.

So, unless you can actually provide evidence that the Bible clearly states that celibacy is better than marriage, you have to concede that that is merely your opinion and Paul's opinion, and rescind the claim that the Bible clearly states it as fact. I don't need to continue to try to counter your argument when you haven't made a solid argument in the first place. There's nothing wrong with having the opinion that celibacy is better than marriage. Personally, in my opinion, I don't think we can say either one is better than the other, and I think it depends on the person and the situation and that each have their own share of pros and cons. That's just my opinion, and there's no issue with that. There IS, however, an issue with claiming that your opinion is God's opinion, and you know that for a fact because it's clearly stated in the Bible, without being able to actually provide any evidence of it being "clearly stated" in the Bible.

 

How do you think clothes like this inkprofy com/church-outfits/ can be acceptable for church? If not, can you show what do think we must to wear to church so as not to disturb your comfort?

 

We disagree. Completely. Best wishes.

 

Read his post again. He never said anything about how a woman dresses for church. Nor did he blame the woman at all for that matter.