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A very STRONG question to all the women on this forum

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by The Strategist, Jun 8, 2018.

  1. KAD234

    KAD234 Fapstronaut

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    I agree. I found it sort of funny that he could keep lying to my face when all the evidence was in front of him. I honestly thought he was the one person I could trust and all of this did come as a big shock to me. Since I didn't think he was like that at all.
     
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  2. TryingHard2Change

    TryingHard2Change Distinguished Fapstronaut

    Great point .. and it's worth reiterating: abstinence is not recovery.

    "Simply" stopping is not recovery .. Recovery for the PA involves transformation, some of it internal / some of it external .. Recovery for the SO (which the PA contributes to) involves making amends .. Recovery for the relationship involves rebuilding trust, which takes a lot of time.

    Any PA who thinks they just stopped, cured themselves, and everything is fine -- "Why doesn't life just go back to normal now?" the instant, self-healed PA thinks...that person is in denial.
     
  3. Jennica

    Jennica Fapstronaut

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    To the point about about the PA being proud on days clean, I do agree it is a red flag. Doing so, showing pride in an accomplishment is one positive “sign” and I have seen it with my hubby. The opposite is part avoidance and deflection tactics when hiding and lying about things. The avoidance, the lack of positive statements is to not bring attention to the negative activities even through positive statements. They are afraid to bring any part of it up so you don’t ask questions and avoid conversations.

    I was very relieved when he notified me of his milestones. He also wanted to let his best friend and wife know at the 6 month milestone while having dinner, because he sees it as positive achievement for himself. It certainly did relieve any suspiciousness because of it for me.
     
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  4. naonaise

    naonaise Fapstronaut

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    This is something I’ve been thinking through the past week or so with him having his first relapse since starting this whole thing. I love this man. I want everything with him. But there will come a point in time, a point I cannot measure this early in the relationship (2 years) and this early into the program (nearly 3 months) where I simply cannot take it anymore. There have been some night where I have stayed up just staring at the ceiling wondering if my love is enough. I have wondered whether choosing to stay this far has been a waste of both his time and mine. There are many people in my life who seem to just be waiting for me to get rid of him. As it stands right now, I cannot honestly not accurately put a measure on how much patience I can have with him, since for the time being it seems I have an ample enough supply of it to keep coming back. Maybe one day I will run out of it and he’ll be rid of the hindrance I am to him in all this.

    I cannot put a measure on how long I’m willing to suffer while I wait, I know that I probably would not accept a lifetime addiction and it would ultimately lead to a breakup or, if we even get that far, a divorce somewhere down the line.

    That being said, I know that this is a man I will always care for. This is a man I will always hold near and dear to my heart. This is a man with whom I want all there is to have in life and a partnership. This is a man I will always and forever love.

    But love is not enough.
     
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  5. BetrayedMermaid

    BetrayedMermaid Fapstronaut

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    I changed a question but here are my answers:

    Yes, I can accept the possibility that he might never fully overcome this addiction because this is the truth but this means I will be distant to protect myself. I've already made the decision to break up with him (legally separated) we don't live together, our blended family with our 4 kids is demolished. We are still in daily conversations and I'm his distant cheerleader. (although I do get close from time to time). I'm very clear and open about where I am emotionally, he doesn't have to guess.

    This quote from TheMightyQuinn described what I'm going for:

    I'm a little different than most the SO's I think... and it's probably because of the "stepdaughter" issue.

    I'm needing a complete do over. I'm getting to an emotionally safe place, going to recover from betrayal trauma while he works on his recovery and THEN make a decision on if I can handle STARTING a relationship with an addicted partner or not. He gets his time to do as he will, the motivation to be back with me I think is helping him to recover.

    How much time will I need to feel like I can trust him again? Answer: As much time as I need. If he isn't willing to wait the time it takes to earn my trust, he is already free to leave.

    I kind of feel like I have some sort of control this way... NOT control of his recovery, that is ALL on him. He knows what I expect (full honesty and always striving to overcome his addiction). If he wants me, he can figure out how to come get me. He knows I love him. If I'm not sought after with honesty and patience, I will divorce and live happily ever after either on my own or with someone else. I'm not in to wasting time. My perspective because I'm an oncology nurse and I see people's lives changed in a moment with that cancer diagnosis... and people dying... I'm not going to waste time. I'm going to heal ASAP and get on with my life, and he'd better keep up!! :D
     
  6. Wow. Coincidentally, this is the very question I've been asking myself lately, and finding the answer is my current struggle. We're 25 years into this relationship so I guess you can safely say that I'm not one to just bail at the first sign of problems. I suppose it would also seem like perhaps I'm the type to just tolerate anything and everything that could be thrown at me, too. In fact, I think my PA husband has convinced himself that this is the case, right about the same time I've decided it is not.

    The whole situation is so complex, really, and my ability to see/think clearly has been greatly affected by years and years of gaslighting/lying/deceiving. But, the one thing I do know is that, although things are not as bad now as they have been before, they still aren't right or like they should be. And, though I'm willing to give my all to fight for our marriage (as I always have been), I'm no longer willing to fight alone. It's taken me a very long time to realize that, if we don't fight together to make things right, all my efforts are wasted. I (erroneously) believed that if I wanted it badly enough and fought hard enough, I could make it happen.

    My situation is similar to what @Hella described...he's gone back and forth in admitting it's an addiction. Several times he's said it's 'like' an addiction when trying to explain away relapses, and other times he's called it a 'bad habit' that's hard to break. The most recent rationalization is, "It can't be an addiction if I can go for awhile without doing it." So, the biggest obstacle in it all...he won't accept that this is an addiction. Before I learned so much about PA, I, too, thought recovery could equal going for a few months without acting out so there have been many times when I believed he was 'recovering.' During those times, things would just seem to go back to normal, but I never could figure out why I couldn't get past it or stop hurting. Then, I finally started learning all about PA, and I realized there was much more to it.

    With more information and a better understsnding of both our sides, I believed I'd found the key to fix this mess and finally get our lives back on track. I talked to him numerous times about everything I'd learned and explained how PA is not usually the root of the problem. He read about betrayal trauma (as i asked him to), and he agreed we both needed to work together. So, for about 3 years now, I've been steadily trying to get him on board with me to fight this thing together. But, as always, now he's backed off and claims he doesn't need to do anything to recover because he just doesn't PMO anymore. I do believe he rarely watches P anymore if at all, but I also know that there are plenty of Psubs and still some M. He doesn't think Psubs are a big deal but still feels the need to lie about them, and he always lies about M, too.

    All this addict thinking has, of course, contributed even more to the betrayal trauma. He seems to think my healing should just happen because he says he's clean. Obviously, that's never worked any of the other 257 times, but "this time" is always supposed to be different. So, your question is my question...after all this time, the devoted effort, the learning, and the heartbreaking pain...can I stick around and keep hoping he'll suddenly see the light but knowing this may never end? Or, do I throw it all away and try to heal on my own, knowing that, even though I'm alone, the pain won't continuously be reinflicted? I just want to be able to feel sure about something. Just for once. Being in limbo sucks.

    PA is such an ugly M*$!+&F@#$ !!
     
  7. TryingHard2Change

    TryingHard2Change Distinguished Fapstronaut

    These two sentences really stuck out to me. I think they are a great realization of where things currently are .. and where they should be ... "I'm no longer willing to fight alone." -- I absolutely love how you put that. I hope your husband recognizes your desire FOR the marriage---all you are looking for is for him to recognize his problem, acknowledge it, and fight alongside of you.

    ..

    YES! Such great progress for you!!

    ..

    He is still in strong denial. I went 20 years never admitting it was an addiction. I HATED the word addiction. I told myself to use the word addiction is a cop out -- it relinquishes my responsibility; therefore I'm not going to consider it an addiction.

    But that is wrong thinking. He. Has. To. Give. Up. His. Pride. ... And admit it's an addiction.

    Here's the thing -- YOU cannot convince him; you should not even try to convince him. He has to discover it for himself / he has to do his own research on PA. He has to want to begin to change, for himself...then maybe, that desire for real change will lead him to the reality of his addiction.
     
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  8. I really like what @TryingHard2Change pointed out. That was the part that first stuck out for me as well. I think you'll see real change in your with that view.

    So, I'll just tell you what I was thinking when I read your post, not saying it is true, it's just what I would be thinking and feeling.

    I do think a certain amount of pride is involved. But I see it more nefariously even if subconscious on his part. Since he has relied on you to take the lead and put in most of the effort and be the fighter for the marriage, he seems to be testing you on the minimum level you will be willing to accept. When you ask for more, he knows he needs to put in more (for a while) and then he backs off to see what he can get away with. He's always looking for that set point where he can just coast. He's been doing this for years so he probably figures he can keep doing it.

    That's what jumped out at me. That's the way I would feel after being rubber-banded back and forth so much. Actually being strung along is more like it in my view. He is placating you just enough to avoid change one way or the other.

    Peace,
    -Quinn
     
  9. He is walking the tightrope of

    keep my addiction | keep my wife

    A balancing act that eventually leads to a fall.

    -Quinn
     
  10. The Strategist

    The Strategist Fapstronaut

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    It would be amazing to reach this point with porn or sex addiction.

    When I see women in tight dresses or gym clothes, I always get an urge to check (and stare) at her body parts.

    What's the best way to handle that?
     
  11. Do you know about the three second rule?

    If you believe in G-d or have a higher power, say a prayer for that person. If you don't, say a positive intention for that person, acknowledge their humanness and wish them peace and prosperity.

    Peace,
    -Quinn
     
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  12. The Strategist

    The Strategist Fapstronaut

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    I can do that, but it feels like I'm depriving myself of checking girls out. It feels like I'm going against my nature. It feels like I'm a weirdo. It feels like I'm making a sacrifice that makes no sense.
     
  13. BetrayedMermaid

    BetrayedMermaid Fapstronaut

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    Why does this piss me off so bad?
     
  14. TryingHard2Change

    TryingHard2Change Distinguished Fapstronaut

    It absolutely should.
     
  15. Because the concept that men feel entitled to women, that women are their given right to ogle or touch or possess, is infuriating, disgusting, and downright offensive. It also seems quite prevalent among PAs (and to be fair, society), but carrying on with such objectification is detrimental to any type of PA/SA recovery or any hope for an egalitarian society.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-tangled-wing/201210/misogyny-chauvinism-sexism-or-what
     
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  16. The Strategist

    The Strategist Fapstronaut

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    When you take away the drug from an addict, he will feel that he's being deprived of something. The reason most addicts can't quit is because they believe they're "giving up" something, that they're doing some sort of "sacrifice".

    From your perspective, the man is being disrespectful and unfaithful. From the man's perspective, he's being deprived of a need that he believes is necessary.
     
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  17. BetrayedMermaid

    BetrayedMermaid Fapstronaut

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    I mean... at least you can admit it and see that it's the addict feeling that way... but you know it's not right, right???
     
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  18. The Strategist

    The Strategist Fapstronaut

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    But, isn't it natural for a man to want to have sex with different women?

    Go back 3000 years. Were men purely monogamous and faithful back then?
     
  19. TryingHard2Change

    TryingHard2Change Distinguished Fapstronaut

    My CSAT therapist calls it stinkin thinking -- and it permeates the PA brain. Part of recovery is learning and then slowly internalizing right thinking and letting it transform your mind, thoughts, actions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  20. BetrayedMermaid

    BetrayedMermaid Fapstronaut

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    Not to be rude, but why are you on this relationship thread then? Go do as you'd like, it's your life. Go be polygamous and be "natural" then... this thread has hurting SO's on it, ya know?
     

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