Looking at women = objectifying women?

This is interesting for sure.

1. Physical attraction can't be considered wholly evil. It's natural. Research shows that on average people are attracted to people that are about as attractive as themselves.

2. Women dressing to get attention is common knowledge. Women themselves say that the strongest among them find their confidence from within rather than from attention from men.

3. Objectification is a word that gets thrown around a lot. It just boils down to using another human's image for your own benefit. It dehumanizes them regardless of how benign your use of their image may be.

Some questions

1. If a girl you don't consider to be physically attractive hits on you and wants to date, should you turn her down (even if you like her personality) because you don't feel physically attracted to her? The only alternative I see here is dating her out of guilt- which is much worse.

2. Should you avoid dating plus-size women because you aren't attracted to them, even though it is in some sense superficial? (Their lack of effort in controlling their health could play a part.) But what about men who are attracted to big women, can they be considered superficial because they won't give skinny women a chance? Can people be denounced for having preferences?

3. Is finding beauty in women's faces (rather than the typical boobs/butt) less objectifying or as objectifying as boobs/butt?

4. What if you do notice boobs and/or butt? (Viscerally, as in automatically.) Should you feel ashamed?

 

I like the insight. I think it also was different before nofap, at least for me, when I really overvalued looks and ignored personality traits, while being fairly insecure about myself.

Good question, I think it goes like this for me:

1. If you feel like giving it a chance, then go for it. Mind you, if you feel like giving it a chance, then you are probably attracted to her in some sense and should probably ignore the societal pressures of only choosing hot women.

2. I am just not attracted to plus-size women and this necessarily includes the physique factor. I can say that they're not keeping themselves healthy (which is part of it), but also they just do not appeal to me. But personally I enjoy working out and athleticism so even skinny girls who don't exercise fall outside of my preferences (for dating at least).

Note: I think it should also be remembered there still is a societal component here. All throughout history men have been attracted to bigger women (not morbidly obese, but chunkier), and apparently their attractiveness goes up when economic times are harsh.

My point is that preferences exist, and you can't erase them. I agree with much of what Benignintez said but some of what he's saying seems to discount this, or at least make it seem morally corrupt to even acknowledge that physical attraction plays a role in male/female relationships. Again, this is a subjective concept, and I hope I'm not misinterpreting his statements.

3. I think the face is somewhat less sexually powerful as the rest of a woman's body which must be covered at all times. I think this something I focus on more but I find women's faces to be quite beautiful. Perhaps this is why some Islamic cultures force women to cover their faces up.

4. I think it's natural to "notice" women's body parts- like you said we're hardwired to want that, and that is what we strive after instead of porn here. I think it gets problematic when you ogle for too long and make the person uncomfortable. I don't try to actively stare at girls like this, and I'm usually staring at their faces more anyway. Like I said, I "notice" these things.


I think there's something romantic about going through nofap and noticing girls like you never have before. Remember though, that this is actually the natural state of things, and only 50 years ago would likely have not been the case for you. Just because you're starting to feel attracted to girls again doesn't means everything's hunky-dory in terms of your relationship with them. I still have plenty of stuff I need to work on, I knew this even when I was 80 days in.

But it is worth it.

 

lets bring back this old forum

 

What? Why revive a thread from 2013?

 

Depending on what you mean by "plus size" I would say this. If your ultimate goal is to raise a family with a woman you love, then you should find a virtuous woman. If a woman is obese and refuses to put in the effort to live a healthy life, then they are a lot like a porn addict who refuses to leave porn behind. Both are the result of self control issues, and sensible mature man and woman would want someone mature enough not to get stuck in a miserable state. Let's be clear here, after a certain weight on a certain body height, your fat and muscles will start to do damage to your bones and joints. I would be happy to marry an ugly virtuous girl and have in fact invited ugly girls on dates before. (Before you freak out I do believe in objective beauty, so you can have an ugly girl with a good heart). However, past a certain weight it's easy to tell when a girl's own body is hurting her slowly. I don't want my future kids thinking that's normal.

 

I recommend a switch to bulleted lists. It might be more confusing but it's more aesthetically pleasing. Form over function.