This video is more dangerous than you think!

I've seen this video a couple of times around the forum passed on like the holy gospel and I think it deserves its own thread.
This video is not helping anybody. On the contrary, it's spreading misconceptions based on half-truths, and some of the statements are outright lies.

I shouldn't have to say this, but I hope you read my whole post before commenting. Healthy debate is welcome, but I'm sensitive to any attacks against my persona and will report such messages without hesitation.


Men spend money to look at naked women.
Women don't spend money to look at naked men
Why?
Is it because men are socialized to viewing women as sexual objects?

Dennis Prager debunks the theory by telling us that it doesn’t explain why gay men like viewing naked men.

I find this statement naïve. Only because one can’t explain something with a certain theory, it doesn’t mean that the theory is wrong. It only means that the theory doesn’t apply in that certain situation.
Gay men like viewing naked men because gay men are interested in men, not women.
Just because gay men like naked men doesn’t mean that society wouldn’t teach us to see women as objects. Sexual orientation does not matter in this question.

Even women themselves are socially conditioned to see themselves as sexual objects. It’s not uncommon for especially young women to define their self-worth through their attractiveness.

To answer his own question, he states the following
Men are programmed by nature to respond to the visual
And then continues
It’s impossible for a woman to truly understand this.
Well, I’m a woman. What was it that was impossible for me to understand?
Is it the fact that Prager is only concentrating on the biological aspect of human behavior?
The biological factors influencing our behavior would be for example hormones, DNA and brain chemistry. While these are things humans are unable to control or change on willpower, they are not the only factors that are at play when we act the way we do. If there was nothing else, we would be slaves to our impulses and instincts.

The magic of choosing our behavior lies in the psychological and social factors, but to understand human behavior, we have to examine it from all these three aspects. So:

Biological=hormones, DNA, brain chemistry
Psychological=conscious and unconscious mind, schemas, mental self-regulation
Social=social stimuli, culturally inherited values, worldview

All these three factors combine into our personal motives, emotions, and cognition and we behave accordingly. Human sexuality (and addictions too, btw) cuts across all of these three factors, so it’s completely pseudoscientific to examine it only from the biological point of view.
Over-simplifying things result in wrong conclusions and in this case that’s dangerous.

I’m not arguing that there isn’t a biological instinct for men to view naked women, but it’s archaic to assume that men would be at the mercy of those instincts. For decades we have been aware that humans are free to self-regulate and choose their behavior even when facing external challenges.


Men get aroused by any sight of any female flesh on almost any woman
This is a very exaggerated statement. I’m curious to which study Prager is referring to? I wasn’t able to find any scientific data that would justify this horrible generalization. If someone is, I’m interested in seeing that.

Or is this only his personal opinion based on his personal experiences?
So, if we’re sharing our opinions, mine would be that this statement is complete bullshit.
I assume Prager is talking about sexually healthy men, so I would bet on it that a woman’s age, appearance, and physique have an influence on individual male preferences. As do a man’s emotional experience on a certain woman or a type of woman.

If we approach his statement from a sexually addicted man’s perspective, it’s quite possible that any sight of any woman’s flesh will arouse the addict. But if so, we’re not talking about sexual male instincts anymore. We’re talking about the addict getting his dopamine hit, which is an entirely different topic.


Women are not programmed to get it, they are just so different from men.
Actually, us women with our lady-brains and all, are in fact programmed to get it. Women are not able to experience it but that doesn't mean it's something that women cannot understand.
Every healthy human being, man or woman or something else, is capable to absorb new knowledge and as a result, learn new things. Therefore, it's not a question of being a man or a woman. Once again, Dennis Prager makes the mistake of not understanding the big picture, failing to take mental and social dimensions to account. Biologically men and women are different, not so much psychologically or socially.

-----------------------------

This video is more harmful than it appears. There are things said in between the lines that are outright dangerous equally to men and women:

• The phenomenon of men objectifying women is only natural and therefore acceptable
• The instinct is so powerful that normal men cannot help themselves
• Women cannot understand, so they have no say in the matter

On the video, you see simplistic relatable visuals and highlighted keywords. Those are the same tricks advertisers use to make their message easily conveyed to masses.

Prager is talking emphatically and in an assertive manner. He’s wearing a suit and is an older male, commanding authority. He’s doing a good job appearing like he knows what he’s talking about and seeming trustworthy.

Most importantly, what makes Prager’s message so easy for men to regurgitate, is that it is exactly what men want to hear. Humans are creatures who constantly try to find a way how they can use as little energy and resources as possible. We love it if we get a free pass, and on this video, Prager provides it.


After over four minutes Prager finally says something I waited the whole time to hear.
He takes only eight seconds to say:
None of this is in any way meant to excuse inappropriate male behavior
Now I’m confused. That’s exactly the message conveyed.
Men must always control themselves
So, for almost for the whole duration of the video Prager goes on minimizing the problem of objectification, shifting the blame on “nature’s” shoulders, and so on. That’s a slippery slope.
A brief mention such as this doesn’t weigh much after implying it’s natural for men to be controlled by their urges.


…aaand then he follows with a BUT (always another good way to minimize what you just said):
To deny the power of the visual on men is like denying the Earth is round
I absolutely deny the POWER of the visual on men. I don’t deny that it’s a part of the whole, because it absolutely is. But not more powerful as the rest of the whole.

And actually, Earth is not round, It’s a geoid.

 

Yeah. Many times it's wise to just ignore stupidity if no-one is getting hurt.
In this case, since this video is already being posted on the forum by some members as an absolute truth and has raised some heated, but not very constructive conversations, I think that it's very important not to ignore this.

 

They undeniably are. Like I mentioned, from the biological point of view, men and women are different and that it’s not possible for women to experience the male instinct.
Even though men are the more visual sex it doesn’t mean that the power of the visual overpowers all other inducements to their behavior. I know you didn’t claim it would, but I think this was important to point out in this context.

Yes! I couldn’t agree more! It's a shame that Prager didn't mention this in his video.

 

That's correct

I think you are misunderstanding a few things here.

Socialization= process of an individual adopting the prevalent beliefs, ideas and norms of the surrounding social environment
“power of the visual”= in this context, Prager is referring to an instinct that nature has programmed in men. In other words, biology (DNA, hormones, brain chemistry)

Biology and socialization are two completely separate factors and it’s impossible to change biology with socialization or anything else for that matter. So, I’m not sure what you mean with “socialized with this power of the visual”
While we can find strong biological reasons why men like to view naked women, we cannot exclude socialization (or psychological reasons) as an equally strong one.

Prager is literally telling us that men are not socialized into viewing women as objects and so are you.
It simply is not true.

• Scientific studies prove that humans as highly social beings tend to internalize ideas and attitudes from their peers.
• Scientific studies prove that in addition to conscious human perception, subconsciously perceived messages like pictures or attitudes, shape our views and beliefs.
• We all know how porn shapes our minds. Porn is a social phenomenon, and there are studies on it too

Our society is filled with explicit pictures of women, (micro)aggressions against women, and so on. It is a fact that men and women are socialized to viewing women as objects regardless of their sexual orientation. It’s unavoidable.

There is science behind the statement that men have an instinct to watch naked women. My argument was that Prager is examining the topic one-sidedly failing to see a human as a whole.

I have no reason not to believe you. That’s your perception.
But perceptions are not facts and should not be generalized.

None taken.
I think this is a very important thing you just said.
I don’t see this as women versus men -situation. I see this as a huge problem for everyone.
I do have a problem with the message conveyed by Prager and I cannot accept it.
Quoting myself here:

• 
  The thing is, I don’t think ANYONE should accept this.

If you exclude the psychological and social factors on human behavior, as Prager does, there’s nothing left but the biological side.
If there would be nothing else, we really would be slaves to our instincts. So, it is said. Not directly, but it is said.

I can’t claim to know how each individual interprets Prager’s message, because that’s subjective.
However, I find it concerning that many men and boys may take it as a permission to objectify women.

Good! I hope this would be the case with everybody who watches it.

That’s why videos like this are dangerous.

 

I think so too

Ditto. Although I do understand why emotions run high on this forum sometimes. Many things hit so close to home for people who are already in pain.

This video was much better. It actually made me rethink my stance on my husband "accidentally" looking at other women and that's good, but my zero tolerance on ogling still stands.

Just like in "men and the power of visual" he leaves the viewer thinking that there's nothing men could do to change their habit of ogling because they don't have enough willpower.
He's right about the willpower point:
Willpower works in short bursts and it makes us achieve goals that don't take too long to complete. So It allows us to power through difficult tasks that last for a couple of days, but after a week or so our willpower has degraded because it takes up a lot of energy.

BUT. This doesn't mean there wouldn't be other options. Willpower is not the only force at play here.
For instance, practicing willingness would be a great way to change deeply rooted behavior without having to fight yourself.

Hmm...yes. It failed miserably though.

Men absolutely are smart enough to figure anything out! Same goes for women.
All it takes is awareness and a bit of healthy skepticism toward the information we receive.

 

It helps people with other addictions, so why not PA as well.
One thing I know for sure. It won't help if it's not given the chance it deserves.

 

I'm glad you see the importance of this discussion and I wish more forum members would too.

Objectification of women is a huge problem and when someone says that it's only natural it brings a sense of acceptability towards the whole thing. When that is combined with the porn addiction's tendency to escalate, the possible results are frightening equally for both men and women.
So thank you for bringing a healthy male perspective to the discussion. It's as much needed as the female perspective.

You are right. Having the right mindset makes a huge difference. It's crucial if anyone wishes to actively become a better person and It's what separates those who succeed and those who don't.

As a side note: I believe that it's the mindset that makes the difference between PA's remission and recovery. For anyone wishing to learn about different mindsets, I recommend reading "Mindsets: The New Psychology of Success" by Carol Dweck.

Yeah, I've experienced that and it feels disheartening. Unfortunately, that's not a phenomenon that's only happening on this forum. That's everyday life for many women, including myself.

Keeping that in mind, I've tried really hard to not be labeled as some crazy lady who's just hysterically ranting about the dangers of the ideas that the video is fueling.
But I know that the fact that I'm a woman might diminish my credibility in the eyes of some men.

I agree. The key is opening a dialog between men and women and trying to react with kindness and understanding.