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Second chance at life

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by Banjaxed, Sep 24, 2018.

  1. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    I have real trouble telling my parents or my sisters “I love you”. I do, I think, but I just physically can’t say it. The feeling that stops me is embarrassment I think. I need to think on that some more.

    As a family we’re not close. We get on, I dot bear them any ill will or anything but it’s not the easy cosy relationship I witness in others. We don’t have any family rituals or special holidays. I was always jealous of people who did have those. I can and often do go months without speaking to a member of my family. In truth, I barely think about them most of the time...but still, the “I love you” thing, it’s weird. When I do speak to my mum on the phone I start to panic when we get to the end if I sense she’s going to say to me, how i’ll have to mumble past it. It gets stuck in my throat. I dunno

    Day trip to The city today. 14 hour day and was super tired, a big trigger for me and fantasies were way too prevalent again. I actually caught myself zoning out in a meeting and fantasising about something or other, missing half of what was said. Not cool. I’m hoping an early night should help

    Had time for a Brief exchange with wifey but she’s away from tomorrow until Sunday so I won’t really see her until then. At the moment we we passing like ships in the night - hopefully she’s finding the space useful to process, but I’m going to be brave and instigate some meaningful conversation on Sunday evening if we can

    disappointed that my counsellor has postponed tomorrow’s session for a week so no session tomorrow. I’ve ordered the book he suggested so will send the time getting into that hopefully

    Time? Who am I kidding. I want my life to be less busy. Something to work on
     
  2. Hi Banjaxed,

    Your story seems really tough to me. I really hope things get better with your wife. I'm not in that situation, myself, though my sex life has a long way to go.

    Let me recommend this series by Athol Kay - which was recommended to me by Mark from NoFap Academy. It's specifically targeted towards sexless/low-sex marriages. Really great stuff, some of which has already made a huge impact on me. The first two talks are free - give it a try:

    https://vimeo.com/ondemand/marriedguycompleteseries/134570450

    He's not specifically looking at the betrayal trauma angle, but there is a lot of fantastic advice in here. Great insights on how female sexuality works.

    I think, in your situation, you are talking about pursuing your wife, and trying to get her to fall in love with you all over again. Not an easy thing at all, but I think this material can help.
     
    Banjaxed likes this.
  3. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    Thanks Lavrans, I will take a look

    There are two things at play here. My wife is traumatised, she is hurting, grieving. SHe does not carry this lightly, it is written all over her face.

    The second is that she comes from an environment where problems are very mech kept private, not discussed. Her natural tendency is to stick her head in the sand and avoid difficult issues (we all do that to some extent). Her brother is an alcoholic but has never been to rehab, gone into AA. It’s always been the family’s (her mum’s) way to argue that this can all be dealt with at home, by the family. Well now her mum is gone and she’s lost even that.

    My approach has therefore been to remain present as best I can, be consistent, be patient. Crucially put zero pressure on her whatsoever. She keeps asking how I feel about her being undecided - I just say she should take as long as she wants, that I am not going anywhere, that I will just keep trying to make her want to stay (I’m not doing very well on the last thing, I need to get much better. It’s difficult when we’ve barely seen each other lately)

    I’m now wondering if I’m being too passive, not affirming enough. Reading lots of SO journals here and it seems like even when they are being their most hostile, most distant, they want positive affirmation. Maybe I’ve been giving my wife too much space. I don’t know
     
  4. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    So much to report, which i will later when I have some more time.

    In the meantime it’s enough to say that my wife was away for most of the weekend and I had zero desire to look at P. It barely even occurred to me. Also minimal desire to M.

    I’ve had some emotional conversations with my sister and wife over the last couple of days. They have been hard, but good. And it seems that no matter how hard the conversation, no matter how unpleasant the topic or the depth of feeling that they stir up, I always feel better afterwards. Lighter somehow.

    I must remember that whilst I am feeling this relief that my secret is out in the open, and excitement that I am finally learning how to be open and honest, my wife is not feeling positive at all. I must be gentle, I must be kind, I must be consistent, I must be there.

    Edit: I see NoFap has bestowed on me a “Can’t Stop” award. This is erroneous and offensive :p
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
    eash860531, Br1 R1 and Trappist like this.
  5. My SO is pretty private and quiet.
    Hard for her to open up. She’s a tad bit of a rebel, however, which is a plus to recovery and trying new things.

    We have watched videos mentioned here and we refer to them when we find ourselves doing the (wrong) things that they note.

    Half the time she talks, its to herself so then I can discount. Sometime she’s in another room and I have to walk in and say are you talking to me again from another room? And We start laughing as that was from a video. This helps us entrain on the same track.

    Edit (would add she isn’t showing much BT, though, as far as I can tell.)

    Maybe the shared recovery vids might help; you have a full schedule and kids....rooting for you so that intimate building block of life you want grows.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2018
    Banjaxed likes this.
  6. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    Oh you sneaky, sneaky bastard. This addiction is relentless, waiting until I dared feel a little comfortable in my sobriety, still vigilant over P, P-subs and M, but spending far too long browsing “helpful” and “healing” threads and journals here on NoFap. Surely I would feel safe here? Not when I find myself reading journals of female fapstronauts, not when getting triggered by said journals and certainly not when going looking for triggering journals. Fuck. A moment of weakness recognised before there could be even the hint of a reset or relapse, but the pattern of behaviour was there, something I’ve not experienced since the bad old days. *shiver*

    Never let your guard down, remain ever vigilant.

    Much has happened since my last post so I’m just going to post some highlights.

    Wifey was away for two days but temptation to indulge was zero. In truth I was so frickin busy there was little opportunity but I’ll Take any sober day I get.

    My secretary of 5 years left and we had leaving drinks for her. Another of the secretaries whom I know has a soft spot for me got drunk and was very flirtatious and, i’ll Be honest I initially enjoyed the attention from someone 15 years my junior. Then I got moody because the whole “making myself feel better” was exactly how my wife explains her EA, and I got triggered.

    Speaking of whom, this guy is everywhere I go because he also has kids of similar ages with similar interests. In fact his kids are good friends with mine. Took my kids to swimming on Saturday morning and I was terrified of bumping into him. Took my kids surfing on Sunday and who should paddle past in the lineup. He fucking haunts me. My wife asked why I was scared of bumping into him and it made me think - aside from the obvious, he’s good at what I want to be good at (surfing), seems to have slept with half of the women my age I know, and seems very confident in himself and his masculinity. Men like that I have always found intimidating. His wife doesn’t know anything about what has been going on and he’s on thin ice with her (more on that below) - there is a temptation to drop him firmly in the shit to be honest, but I never would. His kids are lovely and they don’t deserve that. And if he’s trying to cheat on his wife he’s unhappy enough at some level.

    I say he’s on thin ice because about a year after getting married he did have a physical affair - with my sister. This was ten years ago and she was single but it maybe helps explain why I hate him quite as much as I do. I mean two women in the same family?

    Every cloud - I use these feelings to remind me of what my wife is feeling every single day as a result of my betrayal. Everytime doubts surface, everytime I feel myself getting angry, everytime I start to justify or play the victim. I harness these feelings to remind myself I have no right to do that.

    I’ve mentioned before that my family is not that close - we seem to have a problem communicating with each other (it’s not just me, hurrah! :rolleyes:) Anyway I had my sister round for breakfast with her kids, took a big swallow and told her I loved her and was very proud of her - something I don’t recall ever saying in over 30 years. I told her about my PA and compulsive eating and we just had a good talk about my family. She’s 5 years younger and it’s amazing just how different of an upbringing we had from each other in terms of the relationship with our parents. It was just so great to start to really connect after all this time, and I was proud of myself for being brave enough to make myself vulnerable in front of her. Seems crazy to say that, my own sister, but it just shows how high I had built the walls around me.

    Conversely my dad had popped round the day before after a long trip and I couldn’t even look him in the eye. I’m going to need a lot more healing before I can open up to him I feel.

    Whilst my wife was away she sent me a 50 page pdf on PA from Fight the New Drug, and said she’d been reading up lots. I was so happy to see this positive engagement from her and when she got back we had a number of constructive talks:
    - she describes her fear of physical intimacy as a mental block and keeps repeating that she doesn’t know how to move past it
    - she’s worried about what’s in my head, but is also deeply hurt that I could watch P knowing it would upset her
    - she is deeply unhappy about my Going to strip clubs on stag trips and getting private dances. She asked how I would feel if roles were reversed and I said I honestly didn’t know, because I knew how meaningless they were (and how drunk I was on every occasion). I don’t think that was the best answer but that was the honest truth.
    - she admitted that she hasn’t stopped contact with this guy because she still needs what he gives to her. I suggested that our relationship was not in a good place and I was feeling low so should I go out and find a little pick me up? She avoided that one. I also suggested that she was putting his marriage and family at risk, which she disagreed with. I think she’s being naive.
    - she blames herself, that’s her natural position for everything, and the PA is no different. She is starting to understand that I was PMO a decade before we even met and that it was nothing to do with her and everything to do with my deficiencies, but it’s a gradual thing. I’m hoping counselling will build on those feelings.
    - she says she can see the man she married, and the man I could become but she doesn’t know if she can ever see herself having sex with me again. She complained that someone else could get the best of me, to which I said she had right of first refusal for as long as she wanted it.

    It was a good few days of progress
     
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  7. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    Couples counselling yesterday, group therapy tonight. Was supposed to have my solo counselling too but he’s sick.

    We are getting used to being in couples therapy, it feels less cagey, more open.

    Talked about money first. I’m the money administrator in our relationship, and my wife has relinquished this to me over the years. I was interested to read that Intimacy Anorexics can sometimes use money to control their other halves, something I’ve been thinking about. I’ve always been slightly cautious but would always find the money to buy things I wanted, but then gripe about things my wife wanted. We run several joint accounts for things but each have a personal account - when I would transfer money to my wife’s account I would label it “pocket money” in a light hearted way (or so I thought), and when we overspent I would talk about “bailing her out”. I can see how the whole effect was to assert control. I acknowledge that I have financial insecurities. In truth I would love my wife to get more on top of Our finances and lighten the load. I have since arranged for my salary to get paid into one of our joint accounts to at least give her some visibility, and plan to sit down with her to explain the budget/system and ask her to take greater responsibility for it.

    The night before our session I had talked about taking some money we have an investing it. The difficulty is we are at a point in our lives where we really need to be taking some long term financial decisions, but we are also at a point in our relationship when we can’t be tying money up for the long erm. What if we have to divide it up, or find money for another house? So I started talking about how I was just going to invest “my half”, which upset her. She got worried about her own security and all my reassurance that it would be fine and I would support her whatever happened fell on deaf ears (most of my explanations do). Guess we’ve seen too many ugly divorces I’ve the years.

    It didn’t help that she borrowed my laptop and found that I’d been searching “divorce with kids”. In my less hopeful moments I’ve been thinking about it and how t would impact on children, and was just looking for pointers I guess. I reassured her that I’m absolutely not wanting to divorce at all, but that she can’t blame me for worrying about it as she brings it up all the time.

    The rest of the session really focussed on our communication problems, and feelings of resentment towards one another. The counsellor explained that it’s ok or me to explain my needs and ask for them to be met. I said that I didn’t feel that way when having 4 kids in 7 years (by 4 c-sections with associated health issues) and then when my wife lost her mum. But how I then dealt with that was completely unhealthy. It felt good to have the counsellor say how tough that must have been, but she might have just been being nice.

    Off the back of the money conversation the counsellor suggested that we might have a traditional patriarchal system in our marriage - my wife agreed but I did not. I feel that my wife has long made a lot of the decisions in our marriage: when we go out, where, where we take kids, the activities they do, even how any kids we have. Often without even consulting me (ok she might have mentioned the last one ;)).

    I was thinking this morning of how many friends my wife has discarded over some issue or perceived slight over the years. Best friends that she was very close to and now doesn’t speak To at all because she feels wronged in some way. This bummed me out predictably - does she have the capacity to forgive me for 18 years of betrayal? I can see that she is trying but I really don’t know at this point.

    Despite all this I felt pretty good yesterday. The beautiful weather continues and I felt positive for most of the day. No urges and sexual thoughts despatched swiftly enough.
     
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  8. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    I feel re-energised. My group therapy session last night finally started on some material I was not familiar with: healthy sexuality. I touched on some stuff that made so much sense to me - I need to do more work on this. I’m loving this journey of self-discovery so far.

    I mentioned in another journal my desire for equality in my relationship with my wife, always trying to meet in the middle. Trying to even find that middle, let alone make the constant adjustments necessary to hold us there is exhausting and ultimately doomed to fail. So much simpler and more rewarding to instead spend my life in service of my wife, loving her to the best of my ability.

    It was so easy to write down, not so easy to put into practice. Lately I’ve been feeling anger about her affair, her lack of communication on the topic, her seeming lack of guilt (or rather her ease at excusing it) her continuing interactions with this man and failure to do any kind of work to acknowledge my pain and reassure me that she is not going to ride off into the sunset with him. This anger has been magnified by a feeling that, as a PA, I have no right to ask for anything...that I deserve it.

    I realised that I have on occasion let this get in the way of my side of repairing our relationship - frankly it is difficult to tell someone how much you love them and show that in deeds when you are worried about whether or not they feel it back. I found I was protecting myself against the potential rejection and hurt. Thanks to @Strength And Light and his wonderful journal I am now aware of Attachment theory and can definitely identify with being Dismissive Avoidant, and protecting myself against such potential hurt came easy for me.

    The trouble with that, and with protecting yourself on the downside, is that you massively reduce your upside potential. I need to remember that my feelings are unconditional - unconditional love. I feel that naturally for my kids, but with my wife that needs to be a choice. And I’ve made it.

    From now on I will love my wife to the best of my ability, no matter what she does.
     
  9. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    I don’t know whether it was yesterday’s declaration, watching some of the “helping her heal” stuff on YouTube last night or reading snippets of journals of PAs in recovery and committed relationships, but my heart is almost bursting at the seams today in love and affection towards my wife. It’s actually physical, I can feel it tangibly. It’s uplifting

    And I have no idea what to do with it

    One of the recovery videos I watched last night talked about loving from a distance - giving the SO the time and space to process and heal. At the same time I have this strong desire to be emotionally transparent, and read constant exhortations from SOs to their PAs to be present, and “love like you give a shit”.

    It’s difficult to know how to “be” at this moment. My wife says often that she feels that she doesn’t know me anymore - not only because my behaviour did not fit her view of me (nor did it fit mine), but also because of how I have changed post D-Day. I must realise that she needs Time to get to know this new me, decide if she likes him, and decide if she sees a future with him. This will take time, lots of time, and I must be patient. And consistent.

    We have dinner together tonight so I’m hopeful we can have some meaningful conversations.
     
  10. Hi Banjaxed,

    I've read your journal from the start and have to say well done on the hard work mate. As a single guy, reading your story has really opened my eyes to how damaging PMO-use in a marriage can be. I hope I never bring into a long-term relationship.

    I too have trouble opening up to my sisters/ mother so enjoyed reading about how you opened up this week, I'm sure it wasn't easy. I've started reaching out to my mum more often, telling her I love her etc (I have to consciously think about saying it) and she really appreciates it.

    Your wife's emotional affair seems crazy to me (and more than a bit selfish on her part) but I understand your difficulty taking the moral high ground as a PA. Does she know about his affair with your sister? And all the other women he slept with (presumably before he got married)? I congratulate you on your restraint as I'm sure I'd have done something regrettable towards him already.
     
  11. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    Hi RW

    Yes, don't bring this shit into a relationship - you are better than that. Kudos to you for addressing your problems when single, you must possess self-awareness far beyond anything I can muster. That will stand you in excellent stead on dealing with the root causes of the PA.

    It's funny how we struggle to open up to our family isn't it? I admit I am harbouring some resentment towards my parents for my intimacy and attachment issues, which is completely baseless and unjustified. Even if it were true they were only ever doing their best. My mum is coming to visit next weekend so we'll see how strong my new-found resolve to be open and transparent really is. Her reaction will be telling.

    As for my wife, please remember that you are only getting one side of the story, and a pretty jaundiced one at that. I use this journal to pour out my thoughts at a given moment, and they don't always reflect a balanced view. My wife is a wonderful, beautiful woman, and although I never remember us being really unhappy in our marriage, in hindsight I can see that the last few years have not been the best - and the PA played a major role in that, as well as feeding off of it. The PA also had a seriously negative impact on my wife's confidence and self-image for our ENTIRE marriage. How can I blame her for falling for someone who made her feel attractive, desired, valued when I didn't? If I hadn't left the door open, he couldn't have walked through it, and I take full responsibility for that.
     
  12. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    The urges are strong today, not to watch P at all but just for a release - the fantasies are coming thick and fast and they are all about the simple act of release. I am aware of that part of my body in a way I am not usually, like there’s a certain weight there. It’s all psychosomatic of course and will pass in time. It’s just interesting to note and observe.

    topsy turvy weekend from an emotional perspective.

    In various conversations my wife reiterated that she can see how attractive she finds me, how much she loves me, but has a mental block about being physically intimate with me in any way, even a kiss or a hug. And she keeps saying that she does not know what to do, in a way that suggests she is looking for me to tell her (as if I have the answers). There are constant reminders on this site that it’s not my job to tell her how to heal (and I’ve pointed her to the SO section here, I’m not sure if she’s reading in) but by saying nothing, beyond reassuring her that everything she is feeling is a natural consequence of my behaviours, I’m worried that I give the impression that I don’t care. I do care, deeply.

    Her counsellor has been sick so she has not yet started work with him in any material way, and the kids are off this week so that’s another delay. I’m not trying to get her “better” and this isn’t about me getting my leg over, But when I see the pain she is in I can’t help but want to make her feel better. Living in this state of indecision is tortuous.

    Tortuous. That word probably best described what it’s been like to be married to me. I need to be there for her like she has been for me, I just wish I could help her more.

    I spent yesterday afternoon in a funk, feeling taken for granted around the house and with the kids. My patience and resolve is sorely tested in the face of rudeness and having my time allocated on my behalf. An example might be my wife getting a board game out for the kids, and then shouting for me to stop what I am doing (sorting the garage) and come and play it with them. I need to spend some time thinking about why that is, and how I can disassociate myself from those feelings (and maybe even standing my ground calmly, rather than doing as I’m told and seething internally). Communication I think, it all comes back to communication.
     
  13. Hi Banjaxed,

    Keep in mind that I'm no therapist, but I'll give you my thoughts all the same, as you may find them helpful.

    I want to reiterate my recommendation for the course above. I found the book it was based on incredibly, revolutionarily helpful. You can grab the book if that's a better format than a video course for you. Here were a pair of epiphanies that came out of the reading of it:

    Day 65: Realizing that I'm the one responsible to improve my sex life and improve myself, and that it doesn't depend on my wife.
    Day 67: Analyzed my porn fantasies honestly, and discovered what I'm truly longing for in my own sexual experience.

    So how do I think this is relevant to you? Well, I notice that you say your wife is frustrated at her own block at physical engagement with you, and is looking for you to guide her. I also notice that your posts are full of self-flagellation and guilt, and a bit of a "well, I just gotta be patient" sort of tone. These things together make me wonder if the solution for you might simply be to man up and sweep her in your arms and kiss her. Could she simply be waiting for that? Not a mopey self-flagellating, unconfident, tepid "whatever you want dear", but a confident kiss?

    It might be worth a shot.

    I do think that too much wallowing in guilt can really set you back. Are you religious at all? If so, have you thought of meeting with a pastor for confession, or setting aside some time alone for this very purpose? To receive forgiveness from God? If that's not you, have you asked your wife for forgiveness - I mean, real forgiveness? If she forgives you, then you need to forgive yourself, and be free to love the new man you can become. Be proud and happy of who you are, and then turn to her with confidence.

    I really really think you need to woo her. She wants to fall in love with you again. She wants for this physicality that is at loggerheads to break free. So see her as a woman whom you are trying to win. She's interested, but just doesn't have that flutter in the heart for you. So go charm the socks off her! Remember when you were dating - what did she respond to then? See it as starting over. Go get her, man!
     
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  14. Couldn’t agree more with the poster above.

    I won’t initiate with my boyfriend because I want him to do it. This addiction has destroyed my self esteem and I want more than anything to know that he wants me.
     
  15. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    Thank you @Lavrans and @Empty shell of a girlfriend, I really appreciate you stopping by. I found your posts very thought provoking, and that’s what I’ve been away doing - lots of thinking.

    I think you may be on to something here. In any event I like the idea that I might have a proactive role to play beyond working my recovery hard.

    I’ll report back later. I’m working through some feelings of anger and frustration at the moment. I’ve even had thoughts of chucking in the towel (on my marriage, not my sobriety). Nothing seriousLy entertained, but most unhelpful and unhealthy and I know they’ll pass.
     
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  16. Well, I certainly hope you'll try the video series I recommended before filing for divorce. ;-)

    Seriously though, I look forward to hearing your report. I hope I'm not recommending the wrong path, but I'm pretty confident that you can't go wrong pursuing your wife. Not that it will work necessarily, but that it's hard to imagine just waiting for something to get better on its own to work better than that.
     
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  17. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

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    Just a quick check in. I had been working through my feelings and felt I had come out the other side more positive, ready to reach out to my wife.

    I got home last night and found out that the man she has an affair with had been in my house, alone with her yesterday (and the kids). I only found out because when I asked my daughter why her room was such a mess she old me she’s been playing with his daughter there.

    My immediate reaction was to withdraw back into my shell, go quiet, rage internally. Am I really just a worthless PA with no rights? “I figured the kids would tell you” she says. FFS

    My wife has also changed the passcode on her phone.

    Am I nuts? Is this acceptable? Does a PA really just have to suck this shit up?

    I’ve just dropped my wife at the airport, she’s putting up her mum’s gravestone this weekend, her first time back to the grave since the funeral, so I know it will be an emotionally fraught weekend. She’s also celebrating her brother’s birthday, and he’s just been told he skin cancer Is back. So I was trying to be supportive when all I really wanted to do was get into a row. So I said nothing, gave her a card from the kids and me wishing her well.

    My mum is over this weekend, time for some hard discussions and even harder thinking
     
  18. My two cents: completely unacceptable
     
  19. Queenie%Bee

    Queenie%Bee Fapstronaut

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    Inappropriate. If you’ve REALLY stopped the PA behaviors and want to do the work to save your marriage /push it in the right direction , then your wife should be doing the same . You need boundaries too
     
  20. Is this even a question? I’d have the divorce paperwork all filled out and ready when she gets back, just waiting for her signature, and a list of boundaries for her to sign (including reasonably frequent sex and no contact whatsoever with this guy). She can decide which she wants to sign.
     
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