I used to like Ellen Page... But now i'm conviced she's a moron.

Hi,

Just on the above quote, I disagree that religious influence on legislation is a direct encroachment on the rights of others, at least in a democratic republic.

I made the point in my previous post that if when churches have influence, it’s because they have followers, who voluntarily buy into their message and value system.
If some of these voluntary adherents vote for representatives that will vote for legislation that aligns with that religon’s ideas then I fail to see how the rights of the non religious are being infringed upon. In a democracy their votes matter just as much as the votes of religious people.

There is no usurpation of democracy taking place here. Especially in places like the USA where you’ve got a carefully designed balance of powers so as to ensure that the 51% can never tyrannize the other 49%.

By the way, it’s worth noting that although I have no problem with laws having a religious motivation, they must have a secular rationale.

 

Thank you for your reply. I have not taken offense to anything you've said and you have not come across as someone who is looking to offend. I also like talking about world views and ideas. The trouble is, talking about almost anything in a meaningful way on the internet has become borderline impossible. I am trying out the strategy of erring on the side of overtly and exceptionally civil. If I am going to learn anything while I figure out how to live without porn, proper forum etiquette is probably a good place to start. Thank you or your civility.

With regards to the "whataboutism" I think you are correct. While I stand by the notion that any organization of humans will be prone to covering up their follies, it is important to stick to one topic at a time, in this case the topic of churches. You aren't at all wrong about defending and protecting sex offenders. In fact, I agree completely on that point. What I think is dangerous is tarring an entire organization based on the behavior of a minority of bad actors. When you say churches, which denominations are you talking about specifically? The Catholic church is probably the most well known organization associated with these sorts of scandals, but they certainly aren't the only organization of churches in the world.

 

That is well said and I absolutely agree. I like your approach of trying to improve the internets tone of debating

I tend to agree with you here in general although in this case there is a "but" following now... every organization chooses to present itself in one way or another. The catholic church for example chooses to present itself as kind of a moral compass, declaring whats "good" or "bad" to have or do in life. In my opinion if you want to be seen in a certain way, you have to be upright and consequent with it. The catholic church failed to act this way and did so repeatedly. At one point or another the organization has to be held responsible.

That does not mean, that I believe you could ever guarantee that none of your organizations members will "step out of line". But this does mean, that if you want to be perceived as upright and consequent with your chosen image you have to defend it if your members don´t support or even damage it with their actions. The catholic church did not by any means show, that they are ready to be upright and consequent in handling their members in that regard.

In germany there were several cases where proven sex offenders wouldn´t even be send into court just because they happened to be pastors - as punishment they would just be shifted into another village, mostly small and remote ones to "atone" for what they did. By doing this, the church did not only not defend it´s image and made itself look hypocritical, it managed to raise itself above applicable law which from my point of view is absolutely unacceptable for any organization. Not even mentioning what message this sends to the offenders victims...

You are right and it is is actually the only one I should refere to... guess I shouldn´t generalize the way I do.

(Aside from that I realized that I started a conversation about a topic that doesn´t even have anything to do with Ellen Page. Sorry, OP, for hijacking your thread.)

 

Christianity and gay stuff dont go together.AT ALL. If people would read bible and Gods words they would know that already.

Just read the bible. See what God has to say about sodomy/homosexuality. It's clear as water.

Now if you think it's correct for people to modify and tweak Gods original words as they like,create all kind of churches( which are there for money and to please the people ),then i dont know what else to say.

You can be gay all you want but you can NEVER call yourself a true christian. You are definitely not one in Gods eyes.

And I didnt come up with all this. Its just Gods words,plain and simple.

 

Just read the Bible. See what God has to say about pork/shrimp. It's clear as water.

You can eat pork or shrimp but you can NEVER call yourself a true Christian. You are definitely not one in God's eyes.

And I didn't come up with all this. They're just God's words, plain and simple.

P.S. Also, if you work on Sunday, you'll get the death penalty. Really.

 

Yeah, right. Invite me in if you talk to him next time. I´d like to get to know him...

You read a book. You liked it and you chose to believe in the theory that those human-written words somehow came from a form of supernatural existence you call god - because the very human-written book you read declares this theory as a fact.

Sorry for my sarcasm, but it´s exactly this kind of presumptuousness that makes christianity so unbelievably unsympathic for me.
I don´t mind at all if you say you believe in god. But acting as if his (or her? or it´s?) existence were an universal and undebatable truth is just stubborn.

(Damnit. I just continued to hijack this post... I will stop here now. If anyone feels the need to continue this further you are invited to PM me.)

 

I don't practice Christianity because the Bible is the supposed infallible word of god and there is a lot in the bible that doesn't sit right with me. Mostly the old testament laws. It also seems pretty obvious to me that the bible was written by people. And it is a historical fact that people decided what would go into the bible and what would be left out. And there are different collections of books that make up different bibles within different sects. All that said, I grew up going to church, some of my close friends still go to church, and as an adult I've settled into a religion on my own. I understand what it means to take a leap of faith and find that I have a lot in common with the Christians and Chatholics I know personally for that reason alone.

I'll let that be then end of my contribution to the high jacking as I am clearly at fault on that front. Most actors bother me for their loud proud and hateful leftism. Chris Pratt is a breath of fresh air in my mind.

 

In the West in our current time, this is true. This wasn’t true in the 1500s, nor is it true in other places like the Middle East. When people start caring about what man considers them, rather than what God considers them, then religion is destructive.

 

Actually, everyone, it looks like Chris Pratt and Ellen Page agree on the issue of homosexuality... as he said in an Instagram post: "I am a man who believes that everyone is entitled to love who they want free from the judgement of their fellow man".
Here's the instagram post:

 

I have to say that as someone who is a defender of the the Biblical view on homosexuality and hates when new progressive churches twist scripture to suit their purpose, I disagree with your take that gay people can never be true christians.

It’s true that in God’s eyes they are most certainly committing a sin by engaging in homosexual activity, but it does not follow from this that God has turned his back on them or for that matter that they have turned their back on God. There are actually devout Christians out there who are sexually attracted to men and make a concerted effort to reconcile this with their christianity.

Despite the fact that people commit sins, I think God really is rooting for people to be more holy and less sinful.

 

Well okay, this was not my perception. I certainly hope your perspective is widely shared.

 

Sure they're not under any obligation to listen to the church but they will if the church has a significant influence on society, culture, the legal system etc.

 

I think you're downplaying this too much. It isn't certain groups, it's the majority of protestant groups. The Reformation began with the idea of Sola Scriptura.

Who's we? If we is all Christians everywhere then you are greatly mistaken. Every Christian I know would say without any doubt God dictated the whole Bible. In my old church, I would have been rebuked if I had said God didn't dictate the Bible. Any professor working in an evangelical bible college that comes to the same conclusion as you do would be forced to resign or end up getting fired because such views are unacceptable in evangelical Christianity.
That's why I said you have a liberal interpretation of the Bible.

Also, let's not be so harsh on atheists. The reason why many say this is in response to evangelicals. I've heard a number say they have no problem with Christians who don't take the Bible literally.

 

What do you mean? Bible thumpers are very serious.

 

There is a différence between living and fighting sin. If someone called himself gay, christian and he is proud of it, there is a problem. But you can be a true Christian and fighting homosexuality, it is like me fighting porn addiction. I won't accept my struggle defines me ...