DnD character. The Toxic Masculine.

The character should wear "threatening clothing" especially ones advocating for 2nd amendment gun rights, the Gadsen snake or some other gun shirt.

 

I don't think that's toxic masculinity. That's just someone being a conservative.

 

Many people on the far left would consider that one and the same.

 

K, I just said that I don't think it's the same. And obviously you don't either, so idk why you would write it in the first place

 

Only leftists use the term "toxic masculinity." Imagine thinking masculine males are the toxic ones when the majority of men found guilty of rape in the MeToo movement were leftist male feminists. Doing "nice" things for women and expecting things in return, isn't nice, it's manipulative. Weaker males, cucks, male feminists, "nice guys", are the only form of toxic masculinity I can really see. Less masculine males may always play the victim, but they're the real problem. Feminists are just nice girl/ femcels, so I really couldn't care less if I piss them off.

 

I wrote it precisely because many people on the left consider it one and the same. It's not about what I think about it if the goal is to antagonize others who hold opposite beliefs which is why he has a Toxic Male character in the lineup.

 

I understand what you mean but a burger is a physical thing whereas masculinity is a set of values. You can't compare them 1 to 1.
In the same way it doesn't make sense to con something "dishonest honesty" or "cruel compassion" it doesn't make sense to con masculinity with the prefix "toxic" because the values masculinity instills in men are to respect others, to be humble, to not be swayed by impulses and emotions, to take responsibility, to protect etc... these values masculinity teaches men are exactly the opposite of behaviours someone would describe as "toxic". What's happening is that some people are mis-identifying and mis-interpreting masculinity with toxic behaviour and go on like "oh that's toxic behaviour. and he's a man, so that's toxic masculinity."
Also, in western culture there are no real variations of masculinity, either you embrace values that are considered masculine or you do not. there's no cheese-burger masculinity + hamburger masculinity + big mac masculinity.

Sure some people may embrace some toxic values and some masculine values, and thus may behave toxic at times. However, that doesn't make masculine values themselves toxic.

Simply said: I reject the notion that traditional male values are inherently toxic.

 

Yeah, that's the point I'm trying to make, not all traditional male values are toxic! In fact, the ones you listed, "respect others, to be humble, to not be swayed by impulses[...]to take responsibility, to protect" are in fact GOOD values, and are therefore not part of the subset of masculine values that are toxic.

Masculine values that are toxic - that is to say, unhealthy or not helpful or actively damaging to society - are things like, "If you get hit, hit back," "don't be gay," "make fun of anything different" and "women are objects." Some values like "always be in control/always have power" seem innocuous at first, but if you always must show strength, and always must project power, then you will unnecessarily dominate and belittle those around you, while missing out on any contributions they might bring and pushing people away. Even the one you mentioned, "to not be swayed by impulses and emotions" is unhealthy for humans as, surprise! - we're impulsive and emotional creatures! To tell men that you have to lock that shit down and never express how you feel is destroying them from the inside out and results in higher rates of loneliness, depression, and suicide. You, as a man, have the right to feel sad, happy, confused, frustrated, joyful, vulnerable, and angry and should be able to express them in constructive ways. The other problem is that the value "to not be swayed by impulses and emotions" carries with it the connotation that women are easily swayed by impulses and emotions and are therefore weaker, which kinda flies in the face of respecting people like you mentioned earlier.

The next time you hear something about "toxic masculinity", maybe it would help to think of it as "Don't be a dick!"
Three college guys sexually assaulted a girl because she was drunk and couldn't make an informed decision? Guys, don't be a dick!
A director thought he deserved sexual favours from women auditioning for a role? Hey Weinstein, don't be a dick!
The guys on the football team are making fun of someone for running "like a girl"? Don't be a dick! (Seriously, why are women seen as "lesser"?)
Some girl danced with you all night, came up for a drink, and now you are angry and grabby when she says no to sex? Don't be a dick!
Or maybe a family member died and you're really sad, but you can't cry or talk to someone because that's not "manly" - dude, why are you being a dick to yourself?

 

Look man, I perfectly understand what you are trying to say. And I don't disagree with that the things you described above are toxic.
Take for example "women are objects". In the history of western civilization for masculine men "women are objects" has never been a mindset they followed.

"The next time you hear something about "toxic masculinity", maybe it would help to think of it as "Don't be a dick!" "

Yeah maybe it would help to think that way. But you can't equate being a dick with toxic masculinity. Being a dick means being a dick. Inventing words like toxic masculinity means insulting peoples values that are different from your own. It's no better than "manspreading" or "mansplaining". Insulting good people's values with words like toxic isn't in good faith. I wonder how people like you would start to react if people started talking about "toxic islam" or "toxic christianity" or "toxic femininity". You simply don't condem a whole mindset or system of values because of individual behaviour. It's generalizing to a point where it's hypocritical.

Three college guys sexually assaulted a girl because she was drunk and couldn't make an informed decision? Guys, don't be a dick!
I agree, however sexually assaulting a person doesn't make someone "a dick" it makes them a criminal and you can't use criminal behaviour to make a point for the whole general population. Or are you one of these "drunk sex is always rape" advocats? In that case, we have a whole lot more to disagree on.

A director thought he deserved sexual favours from women auditioning for a role? Hey Weinstein, don't be a dick!
Again, don't use criminal behaviour to make a point in regards to non-criminal people. Also, going by Weinstein - I am not all that well read into what happened and it's also of no interest to me. However, the gist from what I got is that Weinstein gave actresses roles in movies for sexual favours? While this is indeed a dick-move and a deplorable morality. However, these women who actually prostituted themselves for fame and success have no right to complain. They took the easiest way to reach to reach their goals and fully understood what they did by consenting to it. It doesn't matter that they regret their decision afterwards. And it's laughable that they claim "sexually assault" when they just sold their bodies willingly like any other hooker on the street. I still believe in something called "personal responsibility". And while I agree that Weinstein is a primitive pig and should be removed from the scene permanently as well as the possibility of such incidents recurring should of course be prevented, as long as he didn't actually force them or black-mail them he didn't "sexually assault" them and as long as the judges don't convict him that's what I will go with. It may be oldfashioned but I still believe in the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. I'd rather have a legal system based on logic and facts rather than accusations taken for granted and "just believe me" madness.


The guys on the football team are making fun of someone for running "like a girl"? Don't be a dick! (Seriously, why are women seen as "lesser"?)
Feminine women feel offended if they are called men and maculine men are offended when they are called women or girls. This is because femininity and masculinity are opposites to a certain extent. And people will of course be insulted if you attribute them the opposite of what they aspire to be.
Women being seen as lesser is only your own flawed interpretation.

Some girl danced with you all night, came up for a drink, and now you are angry and grabby when she says no to sex? Don't be a dick!
I don't pay drinks for girls. On top of that, what you describe here is typical "nice guy"-behaviour. And nice guys are known to be some of the least manly men to date.

Or maybe a family member died and you're really sad, but you can't cry or talk to someone because that's not "manly" - dude, why are you being a dick to yourself?[/QUOTE]
Funny that you mention that, a family member really did die 4 months ago and exactly as you described it, I didn't cry or went full depression mode. However, of course I did talk with family members about it, in a manner that allowed them to process it. Sometimes masculinity is about making sacrifices, especially for your loved ones. And what people need in dire times is a pillar of support they can lean on. A pillar they know, won't just randomly cave in or break. And a crying mess of person won't be able to fit that role. Holding in your feelings and emotions doesn't mean that you are unable to. Masculine men do this voluntarily and are well capable of processing their emotions in a healthy way. Some do this with sports, others with work, others with grabbing a beer with their boys and many other ways. However, seemingly you and parts of society, try to apply female standards on male physiology and psychology and that is why even that very concept is eluding your perception.

"The other problem is that the value "to not be swayed by impulses and emotions" carries with it the connotation that women are easily swayed by impulses and emotions and are therefore weaker, which kinda flies in the face of respecting people like you mentioned earlier."

Not at all, these men train themselves mentally everyday to obtain a certain degree of stoicism, should it be needed. It's fair to assume that the vast majority of women (and a good deal of men nowadays) don't do this. Rather than it being disrespectful to women, it is seemingly you and people like that are disrespectful to these men by disregarding their efforts on top of totally dismissing the reality of things. Biology does matter to a certain degree, ask male to female transgender people how estrogen affected them. No manly man is going to throw people things in their face but that doesn't mean they don't accept the reality of things. And on average women being more emotionally volatile is a matter of factual reality. Of course, there will be women that train themselves in stoicsm but there won't be a lot of them in comparison to the whole female population and they still hold a hormonal disadvantage in the same way men hold a biologial disadvantage in regards to being able to express themsevles verbally and "verbal-IQ". Women hold, by virtue of their biological structure and genetical-makeup an advantage in this regard on average. You can claim that nature and reality are "sexist" or "disrespectful" but excuse me, that won't fly with me.

"Masculine values that are toxic - that is to say, unhealthy or not helpful or actively damaging to society - are things like, "If you get hit, hit back," "don't be gay," "make fun of anything different" and "women are objects." Some values like "always be in control/always have power" seem innocuous at first, but if you always must show strength, and always must project power, then you will unnecessarily dominate and belittle those around you, while missing out on any contributions they might bring and pushing people away. Even the one you mentioned, "to not be swayed by impulses and emotions" is unhealthy for humans as, surprise! - we're impulsive and emotional creatures! To tell men that you have to lock that shit down and never express how you feel is destroying them from the inside out and results in higher rates of loneliness, depression, and suicide. You, as a man, have the right to feel sad, happy, confused, frustrated, joyful, vulnerable, and angry and should be able to express them in constructive ways. The other problem is that the value "to not be swayed by impulses and emotions" carries with it the connotation that women are easily swayed by impulses and emotions and are therefore weaker, which kinda flies in the face of respecting people like you mentioned earlier."

I don't know man. I understand that you are a good guy and want the best for everybody and I appreciate you sharing your opinion and I only can assume as I don't know you personally on top of not knowing you at all, however it seems to me like you are projecting your own negative stereotypes of what masculinity is on masculinity and thus assume these things are toxic and negative in a sense. You can't equate emotional retardation with masculinity. Hitting back when you are hit can either be a matter of survival or not. Ask prisoners, to name one of myriad examples. "always must show strength, always must project power" strictly speaking aren't traditionally masculine values. I also disagree with that humans are victims of the whims of their impulses and emotions and unable to exert willpower and force of reason over them.

I honestly doubt that we will come to a mutual agreement on this topic here because our understanding of masculinity and what it encompasses is vastly differing.
You are free to judge masculinity or aspects of it as toxic and whatnot but then you must also accept these masculine men judging you for making this judgement. We live in a free world after all.
Again, I appreciate you voicing your opinion and if you are overall happy with yourself and the way you are thinking then that's a good thing and I won't want to change that or your opinions. Just know that there are opinions in opposition to your own and that they also seek everbody's well-being.

 

Yup. Read all about it from Rollo Tomassi.

 

I don't believe in toxic femininity.

 

Make him say "Chad". Cannot get lower than that.