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Susannah's Going to Stop Trying to Control Things .....Tomorrow

Discussion in 'Significant Other Journals' started by Susannah, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    What is their motivation? What are they getting from it? Creature comforts? Satisfaction of manipulating someone into "serving" them?
     
  2. RUNDMC

    RUNDMC Fapstronaut

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    The nature of darkness is ultimately subversion and sabotage. Darkness will take whatever is whole, healthy, and strong, and weaken, twist, pervert and destroy it. It is anti-life. Destruction is the entire point.
     
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  3. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    Thanks - I'm giving this all a good think.
     
  4. Strength And Light

    Strength And Light Fapstronaut

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    Yes and thank you very much. I'm sure that was an effort and you were very forthright. Once again, I find this very admirable.

    I'll try to explain my motivation for the questions by starting with question #2. Not sure that this is the right word, but one of your "platforms" that's been repeated in your journal entries is that our culture disregards (sexually) women of a certain age and that men are shaped by culture and thus ruled by this societal law. I think it's generally accepted that our culture puts a lot of it's sexual value in youth. Biologically it makes some sense to do so, but our culture does seem to turn those few inches into a country mile, yes. But when I saw the platform repeated often enough I started to wonder if you believe that all or even most men subscribe to this. I started to hypothesize:

    Maybe Susannah's dad left her mom for a younger woman when she was a child. Lil Susannah developed a belief (conscious or subconscious) that all or most all men disregard women sexually after a certain age. So her behavior worked to serve a confirmation bias: She marries a man who's sexual desires abruptly cutoff when women reach their early 20s. Confirmations of her bias is in steady supply in her home whenever she needs it. But why does she need it?

    Obviously I was wrong about your parents marriage. But I still wonder about the belief and if it's being used as a confirmation bias. So new current theory: She needs the confirmation bias to keep her from putting herself at risk of being in a relationship with someone she can't control - she's afraid of repeating her mom's mistake(s). But how does the confirmation bias help with that? It allows her to carry anger, shit tons of anger. Anger is powerful and without that anger she feels terribly at risk of being taken advantage of like her mother, of being overpowered. Exhibit A: Her furious outburst at the fast food place about the sexualization of a young woman on a magazine cover last week had an ultimate result: Her husband weakly and meekly agreeing with her, in contrast to his own preferences. She has successfully evaded being controlled like her mother by doing the controlling herself, through anger, like her father. Exhibit B: Max wanders into her journal and sprinkles some benign, polite compliments. Her two responses to him were reinforcements of the age difference. His expressed polite fondness for her was a threat to the confirmation bias, and thus a threat to her source of anger she uses to soothe her deepest fears. So she reminds him of the age difference and chases away the compliments with teasing. The confirmation bias is now safe once again. The "security anger" isn't in jeopardy.

    I would like to take this sentence to say that I, real name Adam, have this working hypothetical theory at this moment but this has no bearing on what I think of "you". I think you are kind-hearted, brilliant, creative, loving, supportive and the bee's damn knees, even if everything I just guessed at were true. I say this because I know judgement is a concern, likely because of this:
    Judgement is a proof that you've been noticed, so I can understand why you may be conditioned to go unjudged. What I've written is not an assessment of you the person. It's a theory about some conditions you may or may not be in, based on my arbitrary personal hunches which are rooted and steeped in the conditions I absolutely am in. Long story short, please don't take my wild guesses as a personal attack. You are awesome and I will not be convinced otherwise! I'm also deathly afraid of your judgement.....

    Ok now let's go back to question #1, pertaining to your husband:
    A quick recap of the haystack we can't find this needle in:
    That last one is interesting because that puts your husband at around 10 years old the last time he saw his father - roughly the same age as his first molestation victim. What happened around age 9-10 in your husband's life that he was no longer in contact with his father? Was this his own personal wish? If so, was this wish maintained by him for the duration of his dad's life? Did this non-contact go against his wishes, possibly creating an anger or hatred toward his mother, a resentment?

    Me quoting all that stuff came off as kind of patronizing or sarcastic, so I want to point out that you absolutely did mention all those things in what you wrote here:
    Just cooling my jets before I start getting smug like I'm inventing the wheel. :rolleyes:

    There is likely an ENORMOUS guilt about the molestation of the cousin, which might be why he's so desperate for approval from young girls - a way to temporarily suspend the guilt. This young girl doesn't hate me so I can't be that bad. I'm safe, right? Right???

    Whatever happened when he was 3 is going to be tricky to evaluate or comprehend. This molestation of the cousin is significant. Underneath it is the bullying and some mom and dad stuff to resolve, but on top of it has to be a MOUNTAIN of unresolved guilt, shame and self-hatred. That mountain is where I'd place my shovel to begin uncovery. What actions can he take to begin to forgive himself for a crime he committed as a juvenile? He may have spent decades trying to uncover justification, but his efforts might be better spent working toward delivering his true remorse to the victim, if even in the form of a letter. That would be monumentally scary, but there aren't a host of better options to "pay for" something like that. Perhaps the victim may have a suggestion? There are a whole host of worst-case-scenario outcomes of taking this approach in apologizing and expressing his deep remorse to his cousin. As with all of us here truly working recovery, he may need to face his life's deepest fears head on, including all the worst-case-scenario outcomes, in order to recover his life from the grips it is in.

    With all of that said, I am really nervous about everything I just typed. I suppose it all comes down to intent. I'm confident the intent is there, I just wish I had ways to deliver my intentions without risk of offending or hurting people. A work in progress...
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  5. Strength And Light

    Strength And Light Fapstronaut

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    I've been squirming quite a bit about the audacious post I wrote here yesterday. You aren't the first person here to receive an unsolicited, back-alley analysis like this from me. Each time I've found myself motivated for something like that I begin to cringe, and each time I carry out with it nonetheless. It doesn't feel compulsive, at least not in any way that I've ever known. But I always wonder about my motivations behind it, because it's usually a bit surprising I'd imagine to be on the receiving end of it. It's like I'm inspired to paint portraits but I zero in on things that aren't usually flattering to the subject...but I'm making the painting for the subject. It's crazy.
    Am I trying to hurt people? If so why? And why my favorite people? Is this some type of intimacy avoidance, subconsciously designed to keep people at a distance? Am I trying to impress people with how special I am, like I believe this type of psychological profiling makes me really talented? Am I trying to "break people down" if I put them on too high of a pedestal?
    I don't know, but when I'm doing it it doesn't feel malicious. So I end up just feeling crazy for it and searching for answers why. It's gross and I'm sorry. You didn't ask for or deserve to be the subject of my weird projections. Maybe it's how I've been self-soothing? I project all the things I'm guilty of onto someone else to feel better about my own issues?
    And the aftermath is like quicksand. Anything I say or do seems to intensify the situation. Apologizing feels like I'm playing the victim. "Have pity on me, for me."
    Sigh. Hope I haven't tarnished your Hope Hope Hope.
     
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  6. kropo82

    kropo82 Fapstronaut

    Wow, what a thought provoking back-and-forth: your question @Strength And Light, your answer @Susannah, the analysis, and the meta-analysis. Amazing.
     
  7. fuzzywaz

    fuzzywaz Fapstronaut

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    This is so well put. It is shocking to me that the weeks of crying, months of depression and all the damage to my sense of self and reality that resulted from the first d-day weren't motivation enough for my husband to do everything in his power to never put me through that again. It is extremely demoralizing that after a period of time, it all apparently went out the window. Only an idiot would not take that as a genuine reflection of a lack of deep love, respect and caring....
     
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  8. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    Hi S&L
    Thanks for the explanation/apology. It means a lot. I admit I was confused and hurt when I read your reply, and a little bit ambushed. I had been drawn in to providing personal information only to have “AHA! That explains everything!” and suddenly we’re talking about something completely different. But that was only an initial response and calmed right down. It was replaced by frustration, since I felt I had no good way to respond. Your analysis didn’t feel “true” to me, but what to do about that?

    1) I could ignore, but that didn’t seem respectful. It would also feel like tacit agreement with your assessment.

    2)I could rebut. I could go point by point and present evidence and studies, as well as personal experiences, that are in themselves, perfectly adequate explanations for my anger and that do not rely solely on any predisposition/pathology/intellectual weakness/cognitive distortion that I may have. But these protestations would serve only to reinforce your accusations, “Well, well, well – I seem to have touched a nerve with Susannah.” So that was a non-starter. I began to feel trapped. Delete the whole god-damned journal! As a person who already feels “invisible”, the last thing I need is to be made to feel that phenomena that I (and others) have observed all my life also do not exist! But this journal is a valuable historical document for me. So, no. I couldn’t delete it in what would have amounted to a fit of pique.

    3) Well, then what? What about @Trynagetbetter response? He seemed to have my back on this one and I felt not just grateful for his backup, but that I needed it. Why? Because I respect him tremendously, his observations matched my own, he was empathetic, he’s someone who has written fearlessly and honestly about gender and race in his own journal (and mine), and (if I’m honest) because he’s a man, so extra credibility points for my position. (Ick! on that last part, but I won’t deny it. It was a thought that I had.) So all those reasons explain why I appreciated his response. But not why I needed it. The real question was: The quality of his contribution notwithstanding, why was MY say-so about this not adequate? Why do I need to bolster my own experiences and observations with those of other, more credible (read, male) witnesses, as if mine don’t matter? TBD – still thinking….

    4)Finally, I could go away and consider your words and see if there was truth to them. And that’s what I ultimately decided to do. Whenever I find myself having a strong reaction to a criticism (usually when it is from someone I like and/or respect), I pay attention to that and try to do some introspection. Sometimes I see some or a lot of truth in the criticism. Other times I exonerate myself, but believe me when I say that is not the goal going in.

    Funny, though – because this all loops back around to @Max Fisher 's original quote and the (as yet by me) unanswered question – why do I care if someone is/might be wrong about me? It’s tricky, because I do actually care about my reputation. It was very important when I had my business and it is now important because I need to be able to function effectively in my town government and volunteer organizations, etc. But this seems like a different thing. Not reputation – but more like a basic disconnect about me, as a person. Not so much about wanting to be accepted and validated, but more about wanting to be understood? Why? Because relationships are formed (for me) at least in part, by some sort of mutual “recognition” born of discovery and understanding. It’s a tough concept to articulate, but like porn, (haha), I know it when I see it. So in our specific case S&L, (I assume all other potentially interested readers have stepped away to retch by now) I think it is about wanting very much to maintain a connection I felt I had made with you and a sense of alarm that that connection was in danger. Alarm, not that you “got me” too much, but that you didn’t “get me” at all.

    Shorter version: Thanks, S&L! We’re good.

    Ps. I KNOW that @Max Fisher is a grown man, but my oldest daughter is closing in on 30, so sorry - 33 seems like a kid to me. Add to that his sense of humor and the “young man” profile photo he was using that day and it’s all I could do to not tousle his hair and give him a quarter for an ice cream cone. No offense was intended at all, Max.
     
  9. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    Yes. When I think of how much I would have changed, did change, am STILL moderating about myself and my behavior in order to best support him, all while receiving almost no reciprocation from him, I get a little sick. Right now, I'm deep in the process of trying to figure out why I did it.
    I think @RUNDMC may be on to something here (at least in my case). So, not only "an idiot", but also perhaps someone who is prone to project their traits onto others - someone who can't conceive of that level of callousness because they aren't capable of it themselves.
     
  10. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    Also, I'm so sorry you find yourself back here.
     
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  11. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    Thanks for your reply. I don't recall ever having seen this "biggest motivator" mentioned on these forums before. As always, I can count on you to be both honest in your self-assessment and humane and loving in your intentions toward your wife. And thanks for acknowledging that sexual attraction in aging partners is even a possibility. I can't remember who it was, but a 40- something on these forums once, while commenting about sexual attractiveness, said something like, "and in 20 years, it won't even matter." Umm. Really? Sexual desire and desirability automatically end at age 60 or at any other arbitrary age?
    Yes - thank you! Again, with the humane-ness!
    No doubt - but worth the effort, if for no other reason than to not give them (whoever "them" is) the satisfaction.
    Interesting. The perceived "missing out" may be part of it for my husband, but he has admitted more than once that he believes the most important factor is power. He has said that he targets young girls because of their powerlessness and claims never to have developed an attraction for any woman in a position of authority over him.
    I think Amy Schumer said it very well here:
    https://whohaha.com/inside-amy-schumer-last-fckable-day/
     
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  12. Strength And Light

    Strength And Light Fapstronaut

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    I'm almost certain this "sickness" you are trying to account for was the driving force behind my unskillful, accusatory posts. It might be a mechanism I installed long ago to try to "save" people from the type of unpleasant existence that my dad had that resulted in his suicide. Like in the way that the daughter of an alcoholic becomes a nurse. "Saving" people becomes a way to temporarily override feelings of low worth, a dependency of it's own. How absurd then to try to save you from feeling sick by delivering you to feeling attacked.

    I'm sorry Susannah. I could have saved you a lot of discomfort by simplifying to just this: Is it possible you've stayed with him all this time because his low self-worth makes him less entitled to act like your father and trigger fears of taking advantage of you like your father did to your mom?

    Boom. Easy enough question. I added in all the charts and graphs and video still frames and finger pointing and arm flailing and dramatic Johnny Cochran bravado because I needed to be right. It's my own co-dependency: the savior needs someone to save. I needed those things to be true because it makes me sick to not have control over saving someone from feeling bad. Fuck.

    That was a big realization I just wrote out that brought immediate tears. It's movement. I'm sorry it unfolded in your lap, but thanks for allowing it to fully unfold. Maybe this answers my question of why I only do it to my favorites. Because my favorites are the ones who are safe, the ones who will likely understand. THANK YOU.

    Switching gears. It's interesting about your husband and about @Trynagetbetter both sharing desires for much younger women while both also sharing experiences in their youth of being unable to date females of those ages. I have always been attracted to females right around my age - my wife is less than a year younger than me. As I've aged, so has the age of women I'm attracted to. Kind of like my taste in music. The stuff I liked as a young man just doesn't appeal to me in the same way that it once did. Important note: I've always had girlfriends, my entire post-puberty life. So I don't share this "missing out" factor. I can understand the appeal of clear youthful skin and body, but IMO your husband is probably right that there's got to be another element in play. I'm not saying @Trynagetbetter is a creep, not at all, but when he says he's using all his might and energy to try to transform his preferences, it's hard to believe that's all based on visuals. At least in your husband's case, it has to do with receiving intimacy without having to actually connect. This is done through power and influence. Much the same way a john uses a prostitute to receive intimacy without having to connect. It's done through the power of money.

    @Trynagetbetter I love you brother! I don't mean to associate you with someone who's an admitted child molester. Anyone reading this please don't make that leap!

    I've typed too much so I'll shut my yapper. Susannah thanks for your understanding. @Trynagetbetter you have a friend in me. @Max Fisher get back on your tricycle and beat it punk!
     
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  13. None taken. I felt like I got to sit at the cool table at lunch for a few day.

    Its a scooter these days grandpa...I have snapchats to do anyways.
     
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  14. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    I love this place....
     
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  15. fuzzywaz

    fuzzywaz Fapstronaut

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    Susannah, i just have to say i have so enjoyed reading your journal. You are a wonderful person and the compassion, intelligence and strength you have shown inspire me. I hope you didnt take my comment the wrong way. My comment is about my own situation and the fact that i feel foolish for having found myself back in this situation again. I wrote that during a bad night. The fact is my SO did relapse, lie and fall into old habits. I am giving him one more chance but i have learned a lot and i believe we are both going into it better equiped this time. Just didnt want you to think that the idiot comment was directed to your situation.
     
  16. Queenie%Bee

    Queenie%Bee Fapstronaut

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    :p
    Ya me too . Who woulda thunk NOFAP is good for a laugh on a really shitty day :p
     
  17. Strength And Light

    Strength And Light Fapstronaut

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    Thanks for the clarification @Trynagetbetter. I really had misinterpreted what you’d written.
     
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  18. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    Oh no! I didn't take it that way at all! And you are not alone. I think it's safe to say that we have all felt foolish from time to time. I am currently spending a lot of time trying to figure out why I tolerated things for so long. Sometimes I feel really blind, stupid, and weak - but most of the time I realize I am just kind-hearted, forgiving, and tend to think the best about people. It makes me vulnerable to the kind of hurt I've been through, but I still don't think I'd give up those qualities to avoid vulnerability to pain. I hereby extend a formal invitation to you to drop by here on any bad night you want!
     
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  19. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    I know my comment will be totally out of your context here, but the "see people as human again" struck a chord with me. One of the best outcomes for me of reading PA's journals has been the role it (and all of you) have played in my being able to begin to see my husband as "human again". There are so many of you that I really like and admire. I have come to think of you as friends - wonderful, funny, human, multi-faceted men, who happen to be suffering from an addiction. I admit, my husband has engaged in behavior that sometimes seems monstrous to me, but he is a human being, as worthy as any of us.
    I REALLY hope you feel free to keep doing this. Your comments here and in your journal have been some of the most valuable and pertinent to my situation that I've seen here.
    I've often thought about the hell all the folks here have been through together and how interesting it would be to have a big get-together sometime (I know this is a fantasy) just to see what everybody looks like, what their voices sound like, how they laugh - big hugs all around.:)
     
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  20. Susannah

    Susannah Fapstronaut

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    Definitely not ignoring you, my friend. Busy week for me so far and staying back at the house with my husband over the entire upcoming holiday weekend (!) Ruminating on your question.
     
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