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P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Svabo

    Svabo Fapstronaut

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    And another MAYOR factor causing low libido is Adrenal Fatigue


    Think about it: what causes you to become excited in the first place?

    Problem is that watching porn causes adrenal rush and therefor an excitement and erection where RL situation usually causes stress (at least in my case) cause you have to get out of your comfort zone (approach anxiety, sexual anxiety). Those states are very stressful if you aren't experienced and actually don't give a fu*k about the result. Also RL situations aren't exciting as ones you watch in porn: girl usually doesn't act sexual or if she does, it's very very light, like she wants to kiss while in your brain situation in which you desire is her saying dirty stuff and you start acting all horny and sexually aggressive and sh*t which is actually causing you adrenal rush. So it's normal that RL situation doesn't excite you andt the problem is if you act different that your body asks from you. So try to balance your aggressive rush because that turns girls on (just look how really successful pickup artists approach - they are all cocky, and secure, and kinda edgy but acting relaxed but I can guarantee you that under that facade they are like "I'll break this girl with my co*k!". And they all advice that you should picture fu*king girl in your mind while talking to her. Why? Cause it causes you to have adrenal rush and to become excited and causes arousal and girls feel your arousal subconsciously, same like when you know when people smile while they talk over the phone)
    Conclusion is that there are more factors involved in cause of flatline: higher dopamine requests by the brain and higher adrenaline rush (explains why straight guys get addicted to gay porn - cause it makes them feel super excited by seeing all that excitement by bunch of horny guys which causes adrenaline rush, same as when you play team-like sport and all the guys are heated over victory - it excites you). In my case, only amateur porn with super excited girls would turn me on cause I could relate to the realness of the situation, where with commercial porn I couldn't, so that causes that effect of searching even more explicit clip - cause new one will trigger higher adrenaline rush and higher adrenaline rush will cause more excitement and better orgasm and therefor more dopamine rush

    So if you are healthy and have morning boners, you are probably just stressed out and being edgy without an orgasm makes you even more stressed. That also explains the "Chaser effect" - when the body finally does get relaxed because of an orgasm, that relaxation increases libido. But trap is that if you overdo it, you just stress out the body again and it becomes depleted and out of energy, so the circle closes and once again you get dopamine drop and flatline and start feeling like sh*t
    So the answer is BALANCE!
    I think it's ludicrous not to fap for YEARS and declaring people who do it pioneers, like it's a good thing - it's not, your body doesn't function that way, you should have an orgasms regularly and if you can't, it's a symptom which cause you have to find
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
    hsb0617, Phoenix Beyond and el_bsln like this.
  2. clapas

    clapas Fapstronaut

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    I think you underestimate the damages that PMO can cause. There are accounts of people who took 30 months to recover from PMO addiction.

    Besides, and this is just my personal opinion, when you come to control your sexual desires, like many people here do, there is nothing left out of scrutinity regarding your habits and personal problems. For many of us, NoFAP is the tool of last resort, and we arrive here out of desperation.

    I started very skeptic, but more and more I tend to believe that PMO is the culprit for many issues here discussed: ED, anxiety, depression, brain fog, clumsyness, insomnia, skin issues, hair loss, etc.

    I am getting ready to battle long term if so required, because I listen to the testimonials of those long term warriors.
     
    pesadilla, hsb0617, taikuri and 9 others like this.
  3. I know this feeling too but I think we would have to go through PAWS no matter how long we've been pmoing. I went through PAWS when I was 19 years old. However I was functional. I used porn and masturbation for 3 to 6 months, it wasn't heavy because of lack of internet and activities back then. I used to experience some PAWS symptoms mildly but didn't know it was caused by porn. Once I came to the US, things got out of control. I even spent a lot of money to the doctor back then because of PAWS symptoms(mild). If I knew it was the porn i would never become an addict in the first place. So damages already been done by now, no choice other than finish with the reboot.
    One more thing, I think we're not supposed to feel lust. I think it's caused by the pmo. We supposed to have sex drive or libido to pursue the opposite sex.
     
  4. Svabo

    Svabo Fapstronaut

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    I've been PMO for whole my life and I'm 39 now. That's around 25 years of PMO with having first sex at 24 with my ex wife and my second sex partner with 38 when we've divorced cause of my PIM. My brain is pretty PMO fried...
    But I'm also very self aware so after all this years of fapping and now a year long searching for cure, the thing I've found is that solution isn't black and white as just quitting PMO completely cause it's like trying to kill cancer by starving yourself where the solution would be much simpler like just regulating your diet and let your body have time and rest to recuperate. And I'm saying that based on my experience of deep self examination where I've figured out that PMO was a symptom, not the problem it's self. And the reason why people succeed when giving up on PMO is that they also change the root cause, sometimes on purpose but mostly unaware that it was related.
    For example, I've managed to notice that my PMO was caused by adrenaline fatigue which is hard to diagnose by itself especially if you are used to live like that for years. So when I've started to change my lifestyle and nurture by body with cutting down P and drastically reducing MO, my body became rested and fatigue was gone and with it need to have an O to feel relaxed and my libido returned to the normal point for my body and it shows signs of improving when I've found right sexual partner

    So problem all those years wasn't PMO, it was lack of confidence, self care, weak personal borders and being surrounded by toxic people and enviroment that caused me to search relieve in PMO, same as other addicts search for that relieve in alcohol or drugs or unhealthy food...

    Also just for info, i highly recommend CBD drops as great help for relieve of stress and anxiety BUT with notion that you must work on yourself as there's no point to take medicine if you continue to do stuff which cause you damage
     
  5. I used to wonder the same thing when I just started the reboot or saw other rebooters took so long to get well. Now I just go with the flow from paws(13 mo). Each month I make a lil bit of progress. Also when PAWS symptoms strike, it can feel as if i have a reset.
     
  6. green_frog

    green_frog Fapstronaut

    I was wondering about that sort of stuff, too. Mainly because I was quite active - and compared to others my recovery process is almost like a Sunday afternoon.

    Here's the missing puzzle for me.
    You don't have to buy it, but for me that's the missing information:

    You know, if your interested in my story just check out my journal and/or my posts in my profile.

    Or better: directly turn to Jesus.
    Say you're sorry for the things you've done
    and ask for help. Once you have said the surrender prayer, you've got the power to ban evil spirits in the name of the Lord.

    It it's not demonic - well maybe really seeing a doctor and getting help is a good idea.

    I don't want to discriminate those, who really suffer from paws, depression and so on. But I didn't want to not share helpful information.
     
  7. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I'm bumping this topic up again, because I see that lots of people is interested in this subject. I was deeply in PAWS (depression, anxiety, fatigue, mood swings...) when I created this threat and I'd like to confirm that things do get better if you stick with a "prescribed" routine (daily aerobic exercise on fresh air, proper diet, supplements, Wim Hof).
     
  8. AspiringVitality

    AspiringVitality Fapstronaut

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    Are you able to describe in percentage where you are now compared to before you got PAWS or even before the pmo habit got serious?
     
  9. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    It's hard to describe where I was before (P)MO got serious because it has been serious for the last 25 years (38yo now). So there really was no normal for me. There were only bad and worse periods. If I compare my current physical and mental state with where I was 2 years ago, with 2 longer hardmode streaks inbetween (6 months and the current one approaching 11 months), I'd say I'm seeing 80-90 % of improvement. Chronic major depression and social/general anxiety are mostly gone (I still do get dark days and occasional anxiety, but it's measured in days not months and years anymore), mood swings are gone (going from euphoria to depression), insomnia is gone, morning woods are back. Anhedonia is still here but is slowly getting better. I'm also so preconditioned by now that I do things I know are good for my health even when I don't feel like doing them.
     
    pesadilla, Arnulf, Randy83 and 5 others like this.
  10. Arnuld

    Arnuld Fapstronaut

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    The first two weeks are always such a nightmare (dopamine cravings, porn flashbacks, restlessness, anxiety) most of the time I cave. But the longer you go the easier it gets. The times I made it 60 days (twice but it’s been awhile) you almost can start to talk yourself into thinking that you don’t really have a problem anymore and you can use porn casually. But of course that’s bullshit. If you can make it past the worse of it stay the fucking course and never go back.
     
  11. Bull87

    Bull87 Fapstronaut
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    Thank you! This is encouraging. I am on day 190. I’ve had really good days but hella bad ones too. The past two months have been pretty consistent. But two days ago anxiety and trembling came back and it hit my like a brick wall. I was so confused. But I could recognize that these symptoms were the same I felt in the beginning of my journey. And reading some of these comments only confirmed that my brain is still healing and my body is still wanting what it so easily had in the past. Knowing that makes it easier to continue to stay disciplined and it also helps me to fight well.
     
    pesadilla, ibi, marr708 and 3 others like this.
  12. 4eyedfox

    4eyedfox Fapstronaut

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    Eating Good and Exercising (Beating your bodys ass) not just going to the gym and slinging around 5 pound weights really helps.
     
  13. Your not the only one wondering, This entire thing is absolutely insane. I started experiencing severe withdrawals that i outlined in another thread that i made if your interested in looking at that, But after all these began i started doing research into the matter and the only thing i could find that was researched in a lab setting that offered some insight into this is this https://psychcentral.com/news/2018/01/13/dopamine-withdrawal-is-difficult/10721.html The long and short of it is patients with PD were using drugs known as Dopamine Antagonists to help alleviate there symptoms of PD. And all these dopamine antagonists do is stimulate the dopamine receptors in the brain, Meaning, That if the patients experienced withdrawals then it was clearly dopamine related. And sure enough this is exactly what happened they experienced but not limited to anxiety, panic attacks, depression, sweating, nausea, generalized pain, fatigue, dizziness and drug cravings. I think the main reason some Fapstronauts experience this and others don't is related to how long they would watch porn and masturbate for. A recurring thing i found in my case and the case of other people with these symptoms is that most of them had watched porn for HOURS not minutes. And the thing with masturbation is the dopamine is released DURING the chase not after, meaning? If someone masturbates for hours on end there going to stimulate there dopamine receptors to a ridiculous degree compared to normal guys. Something that was relatively concerning to me that i found recently was this... https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...8149AE290E0617B5212D544743D764BE/core-reader# If you don't want to read it ill sum up the concerning part for you "This article relates the case of a 64-year-old man who experienced impulse-control disorder (ICD) while being treated with dopamine agonists, developed DAWS upon discontinuation of dopamine agonists, and remained off dopamine agonists for 7 years, despite presenting symptoms that significantly impaired his quality of life." That being said, Yes, He experienced withdrawals for 7 years but it's worth taking into account he's in his 60's and his recovery ability is probably not on the same level as some of ours, But its still concerning none the less. Another part worth noting is this... "He was then taking rasagiline 1 mg once a day and a total daily dose of 900 mg of L-3,4-dihydroxyphenylalanine with carbidopa (L-DOPA). Unified Parkinson’s Disease Rating Scale (UPDRS) part III score was 45, assessed 2.5 hours after the last L-DOPA dose. Upon questioning, it appeared that the symptoms of pain, apathy, anxiety, and depression had remained essentially unchanged since pramipexole and ropinirole were discontinued, despite therapy with rasagiline and incremental doses of L-DOPA." What this essentially means is that for the people with severe withdrawals dopamine precursors aren't going to cut it for alleviating the symptoms and you shouldn't waste your money on them. The final interesting part of this article is here... "Three months later, under rotigotine 3 mg/24 hours, UPDRS part III score was 25, assessed 3 hours after the last dose of L-DOPA, the DAWS symptoms had disappeared and the patient had developed interest in social activities." So essentially meaning that, Once the the dopamine levels were brought in high dosages to the brain his seemingly "chronic" Symptoms completely disappeared the only problem with this is it seems the only way to do this is with SPECIFICALLY dopamine stimulating drugs, Which for obvious reasons we would never want to do because it would bring everything full circle and put us back at square one in our recovery. But at least this study shed some light on the whole matter, Honestly i just want to be healed from this crap already like i'm sure everybody else does.
     
  14. MikeyRamirez

    MikeyRamirez Fapstronaut

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    why is it so?
     
  15. AspiringVitality

    AspiringVitality Fapstronaut

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    Endorphin resistance. And it creates havoc in more than 500 functions in the human body..

    Endorphin resistance and dopamine resistance go hand in hand and will also create insuline resistance (pre-diabetes) in the long run.
     

  16. I'm just not buying it dude. If people can recover from years of methamphetamine to almost baseline homeostasis then wacking off excessively is a walk in the park.

    My opinion is that recovery doesn't happenen because our body's, minds, lifestyle, diets, stress levels, negative obsessive thought patterns etc etc have knocked our body so fucking far out of homeostasis it doesn't know how to go back, the mind body connection is a real thing whether people believe it or not.

    Even the act of coming on a forum every day and telling yourself that you are broken while freaking out is keeping the body in a state of fight or flight.

    I suggest everyone read the book "you are the placebo " by Joe dispenza. It will blow your mind. It's not some typical hippy vegan shit about energy so don't dismiss it so quickly, it uses real science and facts.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2019
  17. Most people recovering from dopamine agonists (anti parkinson drugs), opioids or stimulants recover within months to a year. It could last way longer for a minority of people and become protracted sufferers. Same happens to benzodiazepine withdrawal. I abused high doses of all kinds of benzos for a year and quit cold turkey from a 30mg+ Xanax (alprazolam) habit (I also kindled). It was the worst psychotic withdrawal hell on earth. But for me it took 6 months to recover (All I have left is visual snow, but it's liveable). I was active on benzobuddies and a small amount of people were still suffering after 6+ years while they were using much lower doses, only used them for 2 months and did not abuse them like me. I also abused pregabalin (took like 5 grams every other day) and withdrew from that. This psychotic withdrawal lasted about 3 months. Some people can suffer years, but most will heal within 6 to 18 months and some don't have any symptoms or just suffer a few weeks. It all depends on personal chemical and genetic makeup. In the beginning when I started nofap I needed 150 days to feel healed, now after many relapses and kindling, I still was not healed after 280 days. Too bad I relapsed multiple times and have to do this shit all over again. Untill now, I still have not experienced severe withdrawal symptoms (only extreme anhedonia, insomnia, social anxiety and fatigue), lets hope it stays this way and gradually get my feeling and motivation back without getting massive anxiety, tremors and the over 50 other hellish symptoms.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
  18. atub

    atub Fapstronaut

    Earlier on in the thread there was some talk about cardio exercise vs. yoga, and some debate as to which was better for mitigating PAWS. With the time that has elapsed, does anyone have any further thoughts on this? Is one better than the other, or maybe do both?
     
  19. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I found out that combining the two works best for me, but I do not exaggerate with yoga part.
    I practice 2 rounds of Surya Namaskar followed by 5 tibetan rites daily after waking up.
    I do full body dynamic stretching & finish with 2 rounds of Surya Namaskar (Sun Salutation) and 40 breaths of Nadi Shodhana Pranayama after finishing weightlifting sessions (3x a week).
    I always end aerobic exercise (3-6 times a week: walking/running and cycling for at least an hour) with Win Hof breathing (3 rounds of 40 breaths)
     
    atub likes this.
  20. atub

    atub Fapstronaut

    Thanks for the links on those forms. I'll study up on them. For the moment my schedule is shot until the end of the year, due to the holidays. But, once we get back, I'll look into getting into a yoga class, ASAP.

    tl;dr aside from exercising for the benefit of NoFap, I have a number of other issues related to former injuries from when I was in the service that I need to start developing a routine around. I've never really "looked down" on yoga, but it's always been something that "other people" did. The more I read into it, and talk to people about it, though, the more I think that it sounds really nice. I wish there was an active Tai Chi group around me as well, but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be one.
     
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