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Some constructive criticism for everyone.

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Invictvs, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Invictvs

    Invictvs Fapstronaut

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    I am back here because of a pretty bad relapse, but I did manage to quit PMO for quite a long time several years ago. My first experience was tough, as is this one....but it is doable. All of this is doable.

    I've seen a lot of off the wall posts on this forum. I also see a lot of people hurting and in pain....I see many self-defeating posts and I've seen a lot of posts with guys waaaaay overthinking everything. This is a simple formula: quit PMO for 90 to 180 days....replace PMO with 'healthy addictions' (diet, exercise, social life, hobbies)...and then either find yourself a significant other or improve on a relationship that already exists.

    I see a lot of "I can't stop".....you can. I did and am and I'm probably one of the most severe cases here. You can stop if you really want to....it sucks...but you can. It's your responsibility to do it, so man the hell up.

    I also see overcomplication of things. "What about if I do xyz"....."benefits of semen retention"...."I thought that masterbation is normal". I'm not going to dog on personal belief systems. But I will say a few things. People need to stop overthinking this stuff...because it means you're thinking about it Don't worry about the flatlines...don't worry about if your dick will work better...don't worry about dating. Quitting PMO is step one and you have to worry about step one before the rest. Take this thing one day at a time, and don't let yourself get caught up in the mistake of nofap becoming central to your daily life. There are too many other things in life to worry about....and I've spent plenty of days here...posting...questioning...being right in the same place on the same device that my habit occurred on. And then a relapse occurs because I was thinking too much about nofap...hence I was thinking about my addiction.
     
  2. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I'm afraid it's not that simple for many of us. Brain scan studies have shown that people who have been compulsive binge masturbator for a long time (German study I've read included make subjects with long term problematic compulsive masturbation behaviour) have reduced gray matter volume in frontal lobes (this weakens ability of self control). They also measured downregulation of D2 receptors (causes clinical depression and anxieties). Now this study didn't answer the question if measured reduction in gray matter was a result of long term excessive (P)MO use or if it was preexisting condition, but the fact remains that observed test subjects had similarly changed brains as long term substance abusers (be it heroine, cocaine or alcohol). Brain scan studies based on substance abusers have shown that average time needed to regrowth gray matter volume in frontal cortex to baseline for substance abusers is between 6 and 11 months on average and up to 17 months in most extreme cases. So 3-6 months of abstinence just won't cut it if we presume that long term compulsive masturbators don't have preexisting lower gray matter volume in PFC to begin with (it that's true then we're fucked but luckily new evidence on brain's high levels of neuroplasticity point into other direction). I've had problems with near daily compulsive masturbation for 25 years and can confirm that I needed 6-7 months of complete abstinence to get out of major depression and general/social anxiety and to get occasional feeling of what normality feels like plus additional 4 to 5 months on top of that to consider myself regaining some mental balance and self control in my life on more stable basis. That's exactly inside 6-11 months gray matter regrowth period most long term addicts need to physically recover. Outside of the duration of recovery I agree with every advice you've given.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  3. Invictvs

    Invictvs Fapstronaut

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    Oh I'd never disagree with that. Some people definitely need more time. It wasn't until I was over a year when I quit before that I felt out of the woods completely. Even then....I did end up relapsing after two years of abstinence from porn. It's definitely not easy...it was the hardest thing I ever did. I'd been addicted to cybersex for 15 years...and averaged probably 20-40 hours a week on front of my computer. Definitely very unhealthy levels of edging and MO as well. I did it though.....I'm just saying there's not magic formula. The formula IS quitting and abstaining completely from PMO....and it is possible to do it.
     
  4. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I agree 100 %. It can be done, but it's far from easy that's why I understand people having problems with it. I even opened similar topic titled Do people really want to quit almost two years back arguing that most of the people on this forum are not serious about quitting, but I've changed my opinion since then. I realized that not many of forum members have developed as problematic compulsive (P)MO behaviour as we had and some of them who are in a deep hole already just haven't realized yet where they are and how difficult it will be to get out of it. I don't judge anyone anymore. when I see a forum member honestly asking for help, I try to help him or her to the best of my knowledge, because I got help when I needed it the most from fellow NoFappers and other mentors, but I also learned to ignore posts that are not serious.
     
  5. Invictvs

    Invictvs Fapstronaut

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    I think something that was key for me was accepting that this is my fault. It doesnt matter how bad my childhood was and how vulnerable and young I was when I started. It was my responsibility to man up and fix things. I think it's important that people accept that they did this to themselves...and that they can change many many things about their life if they can drag themselves through things. People might feel out of control, but in reality they are still behind the driver's wheel.
     
  6. Invictvs

    Invictvs Fapstronaut

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    The biggest thing is that you accepted responsibility and laid out a path to fix it. Be willing to be adaptable...and be willing to change your approach. Think critically about whether or not your plan is working. I had to constantly add or subtract things to finally get on a good long streak. My biggest was recognizing that willpower alone wasnt enough...so actively worked to ensure I wouldn't be put into a situation where I relied on just my willpower. Good luck my friend. I think yoga is probably an excellent idea. I don't know much about it, but I think I should look into adding it a couple of times a week into my schedule along with meditation.
     
  7. Invictvs

    Invictvs Fapstronaut

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    I think that's a good approach honestly...after thinking about it for a moment. Really 'addiction' or 'compulsion' are linked to the idea that you are sick and have an illness. Well....sure. But that is also an idea that too many people use as an excuse: "it's not my fault...I'm just ill...its just a condition I have that's out if my control."

    A thirty year smoker who gets cancer....still has an obligation to his friends and family to seek treatment to try to defeat his illness. Doesn't matter how unfair it is...or that he can no longer control the fact that he's sick. Same idea applies, only PMO and its effects are even more within someone's control.
     
  8. fredisthebes

    fredisthebes Fapstronaut

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    Great thread. it's helpful for me to think of pmo as (just) an unhealthy habit because, although I still struggle with pmo, I have changed several unhealthy habits successfully over the past year. So I have already proved to myself that I can change my habits if I approach them right and if I put in the right amount of effort.
     
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  9. tbird

    tbird Fapstronaut

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    You can call it addiction, bad habit, obsession, loneliness, or whatever, as long as it prompts you to take action and break the PMO cycle. Don't take it too seriously by dwelling on it and punishing yourself for failure. Instead get serious about filling the void with other thoughts and activities. I think that is the hardest part, when we have all this new extra time and don't know what to do with it. Its a more acute problem if you're an introvert. I've gone out with a plastic bag and picked up trash, and got more involved with my wife's social activities as positive ways to change. Joining a local Rotary or Lions club can keep you pretty busy too.

    Then there's the matter of getting to bed instead of habitually staying up late and getting distracted during what is supposed to be your sleep and recharge time.

    I have no position on masturbating occasionally, but if you wanna quit forever good luck. The shrinking brain story sounds scary enough, but I've also read seemingly credible advice that orgasms multiply brain cells. Sounds similar to the benefits and risks of drinking red wine. Learning the facts, your educated brain can make an educated choice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  10. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Very interesting read, thanks for posting this information :)
     
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  11. "The biggest thing is that you accepted responsibility and laid out a path to fix it. Be willing to be adaptable...and be willing to change your approach. Think critically about whether or not your plan is working. I had to constantly add or subtract things to finally get on a good long streak. My biggest was recognizing that willpower alone wasnt enough...so actively worked to ensure I wouldn't be put into a situation where I relied on just my willpower. Good luck my friend. I think yoga is probably an excellent idea. I don't know much about it, but I think I should look into adding it a couple of times a week into my schedule along with meditation."​

    Thanks for your reply, Invictvs. Yes I've definitely had the tendency in the past few years to just do ONE thing, looking for one activity or lifestyle change that I can every day that will replace porn. So I would do Bikram yoga every day but not speak to other men in recovery. Or I would go to SAA meetings every day but stop exercising so feel shitty in my body. But getting over this should be about life expanding outwards in many different ways. There's no one solution.

    Also, regarding yoga, the three strong schools of yoga that I'd recommend to try are Bikram, ashtanga, and kundalini. The first two are more of a work-out. But as I said, for me I think I needed to do other things too, like healing massage, some kind of loving-kindness positive affirmation practice, and 12-Step meetings.
     
  12. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    Addiction is not a disease. Former addict and distinguished neuroscientist Marc Lewis wrote a book on this topic The Biology of Desire: Why Addiction Is Not a Disease explaining why the "disease model" of addiction is all wrong. He argues that addictions are nothing more than deep learned behaviors. Basically highly dopamine rewarding behaviors that get stored (after many repetition loops) and processed in our midbrains instead of prefrontal cortex (in charge of rational thinking) to save on energy consumption. No neuroscientist disputed his claims up to date. He argues that any behaviour or substance intake that results in high dopamine reward if repeated frequently enough will get transferred to midbrain and thus become automated excluding frontal lobes of the brain. The only way to put autopilot to stop is long term abstention (in many cases for life) of deep learned behaviour to put this neurological pathway in dormant state and develop new highly dopamine rewarding behaviors instead of the old one (addiction) and repeat them over and over to become deep learned behaviours, replacing the need to wake up old neurological pathway (addiction). That's why you can see so many long term successful former alcoholics or drug users become ultra marathon runners etc. Lewis argues because it works and makes perfect sense, but former addict still need to work on addressing underlying issue(s) that brought in to addiction and find long term meaningful goals that give your life a purpose and inner joy or you risk waking up old addiction every time shit hits the fan in his life. Addiction was our was of coping with builtup stress. For Lewis it was studying and becoming neuroscientist to help other people suffering from addictions. When something bad happens to you, like your parent, partner or child dies (these are the worst ones), your brain remembers and wants to wake up old neurological pathway (addiction) it used to use to ease the inner pain. That's why we are most prone to relapsing during difficult times.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  13. Awedouble

    Awedouble Fapstronaut

    The overcomplication thoughts you mention is really more rumination than thinking something through. Whether it's taking someones word that something has benefits or MB is healthy and maybe should not be given up completely is not the point, it's that the individual himself doesn't know and hasn't investigated and paid attention to their experience, and that will forever remain speculation and an open question that doesn't lead anywhere - even when someone contributes to the thread with more specific information they may not even really read it.

    The one thing about "this is a simple program" whether PMO reboot or traditional 12 Step is people are treating it as an algorithm. It isn't an open system where you continually take into account your experience and input, interact without trying to be agreeable, or if it is it's in a very limited way, in the way it is practiced. So you end up with people saying "I did it for so long and it doesn't work." Well, people don't think about how things work and are only judging it in terms of whether they got the laundry list of promised benefits, and don't qualify for other context and different circumstances so of course. You don't even need to know a lot to look at how things work, you just have to pay attention in your life from day to day, and maybe reflect on your past a bit if we're looking at the the bigger picture over the lifetime.
     
  14. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    You're welcome. I have read it 3 times and it was an eye opener for me. Here's the recorded lecture he had on the topic at The Royal Institution:
     
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  15. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I put Lewis' advice how to recover in practice and in my case it worked. I experienced countless tries and failures before that. I basically did hardmode in combination with setting 6 goals based on dr. Ilardi's book The Depression Cure: The 6-Step Program to Beat Depression without Drugs (1. Physical Activity (Exercise), 2. Omega-3 Fatty Acids, 3. Sunlight, 4. Healthy Sleep, 5. Anti-Ruminative Activity, 6. Social Connection therapy, ) and focused on achieving them religiously on daily basis for the first 6 months. Then I discovered Ryan Donelly and Tim Johnson and gradually widen my recovery/growth goals. I still follow "my" daily 6 steps program, but after a year I became so preconditioned that I don't have to think about or journal steps anymore, I just do them on autopilot. I realize this program is probably not for everyone, but for me, life long depression/anxiety sufferer and 2 decades long addict, these two 2 books were a godsent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  16. fedmom

    fedmom Fapstronaut

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    There's a thread in my profile for femdom addiction.
     
  17. Invictvs

    Invictvs Fapstronaut

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    Really good stuff. I've been somewhat on the front lines of the opioid epidemic where I work. I see a lot of addicts being treated like they are cancer patients. Their family treats them like they are just sick. That is soooooo freaking enabling. The whole model of addiction as disease is incredibly enabling. I'll check out the book when I get a chance and thanks for sharing.
     
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  18. Pathofsuccess_1

    Pathofsuccess_1 Fapstronaut

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    Critism appreciated.

    I’m aware that I’m capable of doing nofap and completing it. But more about But I always stress out about the little things that I think could be defined as a relapse, and probably aren’t.

    Like rubbing my penis against something on accident. (Then it happening again because I wanted to legitimately make sure it did not give me pleasure (reassurance))

    I feel fine right now.

    I feel like I would be feeling different if I actively seeked pleasure and in the worst case, for a long time (which I did neither)

    It’s just a have to stop worrying.

    Advice?
     

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