Question for atheists

That book was distributed in 1513 AD. Moses lived in about 1500 BC.

 

Art of war was written in 500 BC why don't you mention that book Also when was the bible written.You are mentioning moses for no reason there is no proof that he existed.

 

I've never read the art of war so thats why I didn't mention it. What language was it written in, by the way? Have you translated it? I'm mentioning moses because we are talking about mosaic law, obviously.

 

Better question: why do so many religious people think their version of morality is so special that ordinary people must be lost without it? It really isn’t that special. In fact, I’d say it’s one of the most common, ordinary things in the world (at least Abrahamic religions. I don’t have enough experience with Pagan religions to know whether that’s true for them or not.)

In my experience with Christians, the dominant religious followers in my area, they tend to be mostly ordinary people with mostly ordinary senses of right and wrong. They believe killing, stealing, raping, etc. are wrong. They believe that being kind, selfless, respectful of others, etc. are good. I’ve certainly had some bad experiences with Christians too, such as the time two of them screamed at two girls from my high school holding hands that they would go to Hell (to which my classmates responded with an improvised “Hail Satan” sign they began parading around in their viscinity), but these have been few and far between.

There are some beliefs that are more common in Christians, like the idea that sex about be saved for marriage. And I can see the wisdom in that, though I don’t really agree with it. But I have also met fellow atheists who believe the same things. Then there are those who try to use the Bible as an excuse to oppress other people and force them to conform to what they believe the world should be. Many homophobic, transphobic, and anti-semetic people try to do this. But let’s be real here. These people would be doing these things whether they were religious or not. If they actually cared about what the Bible said, they would be going after people in the McDonald’s drive through before even considering gay people. Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins if memory serves, and yet most of them ignore it because it does not bother them personally. Don’t blame Christianity for people being awful. People have been awful since before it existed, and if it were to disappear, they wouldn’t be any better or worse.

When it comes down to it, I really don’t see much difference between religious people and atheists. The main difference that I do see is that religious people tend to be more sure of their beliefs, and take comfort in the idea that they will be reunited with their loved ones in Heaven. Atheists can’t do that because we don’t believe there’s a Heaven to go to. We just go out like a candle, and that’s it.

To answer your question specifically, I would say atheists tend to hold similar beliefs to Christians, or whatever dominant culture they are a part of. It also depends on who they are as a person. I’ve noticed a lot of people who are LGBTQ+ tend to not subscribe to most traditionalist views, which isn’t surprising since that way of living often comes into conflict with what allows them to be happy.

But for me personally, what I like to do is to imagine that I’m not part of whatever situation I’m in. That I’m an observer watching the events play out. How would I judge myself for each decision? Would I consider myself a good person, or an utter monster?

This is how I eventually talked myself out of killing a very dangerous person who had hurt me. A person who said that raping another, smaller boy was “The greatest experience of [his] life.” I wanted to make this person die. I wanted to keep him from ever hurting anyone else ever again. But eventually, when I forced myself to take a step back and think from the perspective of an observer, I realized that all of this was motivated by fear. I wasn’t planning on doing this for any greater good or anything like that. I was doing it because I was afraid of him hurting me or someone else. My point is, we don’t always need to look to a book to tell us what is right or wrong. Sometimes we can just know.

 

Does it really matter what language it was written in ?Stop changing the subject when your claims are challenged

 

Ummmm...are you sure about that? The New Testament, yes. Old Testament, no. The books of the OT strictly speaking aren't even Christian, they are the holy books of Judaism, a completely different religion. Judaism does not acknowledge Jesus in any way and neither do their books. Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Chronicles etc... pretty much 99% of OT books make no reference to Jesus. As far as I know, the only OT references which believers claim to be about Jesus are some very, VERY dubious claims about messianic prophecy, Isiah 53 for for example - which i believe to be pure fantasy.
So no - the whole Bible is most definitely NOT pointing to one person. New Testament, yes, whole Bible - no.

 

Waste of time! - Arguing back and forth in threads like these.

 

Morality is based on whether actions objectively enhance or harm the well being of individuals and society. But we have to agree on what "well being" means, which requires a consensus that is based on subjective standards.

For example, most people would agree that killing someone harms their well being, so killing is immoral.

 

We are talking about translation of old books and you say the language it was written in doesn't matter. Really? I think you can easily see that language is very significant to the translation of old books.

 

Here are some references that the old testament makes to Christ (note: I did not write this):
Did you know that the ancient Hebrew writers tell of One that will be born of a virgin (Isa 7:14), a descendant of Abraham (Gen 12:3), Isaac (Gen 26:4), Jacob (Gen 35:11-12), Judah (Gen 49:10), Jesse (Isa 11:1) and David (2 Sam 7:12, Isa 9:7). He will be born in Bethlehem (Mic 5:2, Isa 7:14) but somehow eternal (Mic 5:2, Isa 7:14, Isa 9:6-7). He will be preceded by a forerunner (Mal 3:1) and His birth will be marked by a star (Num 24:17). He will have a relationship with God from the womb (Psa 22:9) will be like the Son of God (2 Sam 7:14) and He will even be called God (Isa 7:14, 9:6). He will be a prophet (Deu 18:15), a priest (Psa 110:4), and a king (Gen 49:10, Num 24:17, 2 Sam 7:12-13, Isa 9:6-7, Mic 5:2). He will be sinless (Isa 53:9) but will end up being counted amongst sinners (Isa 53:12). He will enter His kingdom humbly on a donkey to the joy of His people (Zec 9:9, Mal 3:1), but He will then be rejected (Isa 53:3). He will be betrayed (Psa 41:9) for 30 shekels of silver (Zec 11:23). False witnesses will accuse Him (Psa 35:11) but He will remain silent before His accusers (Isa 53:7). He will be beaten, mocked, and taunted (Isa 50:6, Psa 22:7), pierced (Psa 22:16, Isa 53:5, Zec 12:10), and surrounded by His enemies (Isa 53:16). They will gamble over His garmets (Psa 22:18) and give Him vinegar and gall to drink (Psa 69:21) yet He will not have a bone broken (Psa 22:17, Psa 34:20). In His death He will take the sins of the world on Himself (Isa 53:4,6,8,12). He will be buried in a rich man’s grave (Isa 53:9), raised from the dead (Psa 16:10), ascend to Heaven (Psa 68:18) and He will sit at the right hand of God (Psa 110:1). He does this to set captives free (Isa 61:2a) so that He could be our intercessor before God (Isa 59:16). He will not just change how He deals with us, He will change US (Jer 31:31-34) and for a time Gentiles will come to know God through Him (Psa 22:27-31). But He will not be done with the Jewish people (Eze 37:1-14, Zec 12:10). His righteous will be conferred to His people, thereby justifying them (Psa 22:31), He will crush Satan (Gen 3:15) and He shall rule over His people with justice and righteousness forever (2 Sam 7:13, Isa 9:7).

 

Choose anyone of those references, and lets discuss it in more detail. Lets see if it's a bona fide, nailed on prophecy, from one of the books of the prophets - or if they are simply parts of ancient narritives which are vaguely similar to things Jesus did or elements of his life and claimed (falsely) to be prophecies.
Lets go!
Oh and - i know how to use Google I challenge you, you go to Google, find something that you think passes as a response, you c&p text or post links, im not interested in what other people think, im interested in what a typical every day christian like yourself thinks.

 

Ok sounds good. There are apparently 330 phrophecies so its kind of difficult to choose one, here are 44 of them: https://www.learnreligions.com/prophecies-of-jesus-fulfilled-700159

Edit: Wait, are you saying do or don't use links? I took it to mean do but I might be wrong.

 

Dont. Im saying all you do is post links. I am essentially arguing with the entire internet.
So i will take youre example and just post this from Wikipedia which is generally reliable:
The New Testament frequently cites Jewish scripture to support the claim of the Early Christians that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah, but only a handful of these citations are actual predictions in their original contexts.[1] The majority of these quotations and references are taken from the Book of Isaiah, but they range over the entire corpus of Jewish writings. Jews do not regard any of these as having been fulfilled by Jesus, and in some cases do not regard them as messianic prophecies at all. Old Testament prophecies about Jesus are either not thought to be prophecies by critical scholars (the verses make no claim of predicting anything) or do not explicitly refer to the Messiah.[2][3][4][5] Historical criticism is simply unable to maintain that Jesus was the Messiah because he would have fulfilled messianic prophecies—as such it isn't a historical claim.[6]

 

Surprisingly, some people manage to be good without having studied either religous or philosophic texts. Also studies on animals have revealed that they can also be quite altruistic to their fellows. In my view "goodness" is much more a state of being, easier to teach children (help your fellows, do break stuff, etc.) than reason out from first principles. Plato tried but he did not succeed in my view.

 

I can't help it. Playing Age of Empires made me believe converting anyone is possible.

 

Huh? Wikipedia is not a reliable source at all. Anybody can go in and edit the information you're looking at, which means that any information at any time could be flawed or incomplete and this could remain unnoticed for days up to years. Because of that risk, it's not reliable for anything talked about here. I could go in there right now and edit everything you just posted from Wikipedia. Hell, I could've done it before you actually posted it.

I mean, the site itself tells you that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source

I'll have to agree with your overusage of links point, though, despite you literally having just posted something from said link. Using links or content presented in links to argue your stance just means you don't understand it enough to present it yourself nor is it likely you have the knowledge and the know-how to back-up said links. And if you don't understand what you're arguing, then you have to ask why is that person arguing at all.

...And I just realized your opponent got suspended. I guess "you win", then.

 

I cant see that he said anything in this discussion to get suspended. Did i "win"? Nah. Believers hold some pretty incredible ideas about the nature of life so when i come across them Im curious to hear what they have to say for themselves, to see if their ideas stand up to scrutiny. But a place like this probably isnt the most ideal place to have those conversations...

 

Yeah, I'm confused as to why he was suspended too. Mods might've removed the post(s) in question.