PIED? or Low T

yes and we should also rewire with women in the real world as well

 

Yes, makes sense. Many people would think of T, but T levels are going to be stable across the development of an addiction, it is DA which is going to undertake major changes. You can see how in the image attached.

Consider sexual arousal is dependent and controlled by the dopaminergic system.
https://www.nature.com/articles/3900719

Consequently, when the sexual arousal centers, fueled by DA, are downregulated, the erection has less fuel and thus PIED unfolds.

Another explanation I have considered has to due with (trained or acquired) unconscious expectations. Through porn you are effectively creating expectations in your brain related to being sexually aroused. Being alone with the screen, having pornified sex, fetishes, "porn stars", etc. Nothing of this is real, it is a simulacrum, not reality, but now your midbrain conflates or confuses both, even if rationally (neocortex) you know the difference, as the training is subcortical in the brain. Porn is a simulacrum of sex but it is a close to sex as playing football in Xbox is to actually playing football, adding to that the unnatural scenarios, shock, etc., and it is a pathological brain trainer of expectations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation


When expectations are not met, arousal declines. Why? Because dopamine is a reward prediction error neurotransmitter. Meaning its signal changes from a baseline state when something is better or worse than expected. Since the normal stimulus of a partner cannot compete with the supernatural endless novelty of porn (Coolodge effect), that is a reward mismatch, thus, the dopamine system drops and so does your erection. Hence, when you form expectations, you are going to have a problem if they are not true (matched by actual physical experience), so you become dependent on expectations to be realized. I think many people copy what they have watched in porn with partners because they physiologically need to have sex in a certain way in order to function, it has been conditioned in their sexual templates.
On the other hand, our ancestors approached sex in an innocent manner (no previous expectations taught by porn, e.g. an erection that seems eternal, huge breasts, you name it), because they were tabula rasa, natural discovery of sex was the trainer, and none had "learned" dysfunctions (apart from organic conditions).

 

It really depends on several factors, but first, I want to explain why there is a flatline in porn recovery from a physiological point of view.

It has to do with a theory called opponent process theory. Here is a nice intro.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opponent-process_theory

The opponent process theory, in a nutshell, it is like old taosim, the yin and the yang need to balance. It states that for every physiological yin there will be an opposite yang, or viceversa. Basically this theory explains why after quitting addictions (reward activation) follows antireward or stress activation (withdrawals), or why people go to watch horror movies or jump in roller coasters (initial adrenaline->hedonic activation afterglow). It is like tasting a sweet food, but after finished, leaving the table with a bitter taste in the mouth.

The theory states that after repeated activations of process a (the drug, the porn video, etc.), this process (dopamine release) will lose steam, ie, will downregulate (explaining tolerance), while, vice versa, the process b (always represents the opposite of a, here if will be low libido or low sexual potency) gains momentum. I attach a figure you can download to watch it. The more the stumulus is repeated, the lower the physiological intensity of a, but the higher the intensity of b.

Notice the theory explains the trick that old stoics did of purposeful stress encounters. They might live for a couple of days as if they were slaves, deprives from their normal luxuries (stoicism was very popular in the last centuries of the roman empire, including emperors and the noblesse). They would sleep on the streets, fasting, and all kinds of moderately stressful things. Why would they do that? Modern neuroscience proves they were right, because the more they practice, the more downregulation or tolerance of process a (everyday stress, building stress immunity), while at the same time, the more upregulation or sensitization of b (everyday pleasures). After some days of stoic training, they would have resetted their brain thermostasts so eating again, sleeping again in a mattress, was pure joy. A way to both develop stress tolerance and fight hedonic adaptation.

What about today? It is the same trend that is getting so popular in Silicon Valley of dopamine fasting. Btw, stoicism is again popular in some sectors of big business (including Silicon Valley). Another example would be taking cold showers everyday for a month. I have tried it and I encourage you to do the same. It totally crashes my withdrawals from porn addiction. Modern studies poking into the topic have showed increased dopamine sensitivity after intermittent fasting. Trust the ancients, they were wiser, and we only corroborate their life style theories by modern science.

So back to the flatline. Process a would be your sexual arousal activation (you are sexually hot) and process b sexual arousal counteracting mechanisms (you are sexually cold). The more we have engaged in porn, the more has decreased a while increased b. So now you quit porn. Check out the image I attach. See what happens? You are not at the same state than before binging. So you have a deficif of sexual arousal (explaining in part PIED) and a surfeit of .. the flatline! That is the intensified process b, it is what people call flatline: broken or dead penis, low libido, low stamina.

Flatline explained, Q.E.D.

Now, as you see the modern hyperdopaminergic digital environment goes contra natura. Through the opponent process, you can deduce it makes you, paradoxically, less sensitive to dopamine (a dopamine diabetic, so to speak) while more depressed, burnout and lethargic. That is the effect of all this free porn on our brains (including videogames, social networks, etc.). What do you do after being stressed and dopamine insensitive? You consume more (high immediate gratification or delay discountung). So even more opponent process dynamics. And back again for another round. It is a self destructive spiral or vicious cycle, like a cybertrap for the brain.
This model perfectly accounts on the rise of depression in millenials that, not coincidentally, cannot function sexually. Both phenomena explained all at once. The digital cage is against the psychological health of our human nature, as I said.

So what can help you scape the trap? Disconnect and reconnect. Disconnect from screens and go outside, go to a park, go to nature. Green spaces boost creativity, working memory and mood. Practice stoic tricks to hijack your brain in your favour, instead of the usual modern opposite. Take cold showers, practice a bit of intermittent fasting. For sexual arousal downregulation, thus is what I do. I go to the beach, there are many naked women. If you cannot, try to be nearby girls as much as you can, it is therapeutic. A kind of implicit relesening. In this way you reeducate the brain, if you want sexual arousal, it must be TOWARDS REAL. So besides unwiring from porn, rewire yourself to be aroused by regular girls. You will see how you erections are stronger, trust, it is miraculous. That is the second part of recovery that you maybe ignored, the sexual rewiring, try it, you will notice you recovery goes much faster.

P.S.
If you want more info on the opponent process theory, download this article, ctrl+F opponen process. Koob (the author) is a genius in the field of addiction, you can trust his explanations.
https://www.nature.com/articles/1395603

 

I’m at 65 days and still in flatline since day 1 but keep pushing forward. It’s really quite easy because of the flatline.

 

This is one of the most insightful posts I’ve read. Thank you for taking the time to explain it all!

 

My pleasure. Some final thoughts for other people in the same situation.

In neurology there is a principle called hebbian learning (or hebbian rule), which states, "neurons that fire together, wire together". The opposite is also true, "neurons that fire apart, wire apart".

For our case, group cell P represents consuming porn, and group cell S, being sexually aroused. The fact that these two groups of cells activate at the same time means they are going to grow functional connections, like brunches of a tree, to physically connect S to P. The more the hebbian learning is repeated, the stronger the connections. Now, imagine a third group called N, which stands for natural (as opposed to digital) real partners.

Now, given this configuration, and our two rules, what are the consequences we can deduce?

1. Hebbian plasticity explains why you can get a strong erection to porn, but not to partners. Through compulsive P-S activation, the preferred path of electricity (action potentials) to follow, would be S to P, not S to N. You feed it to be like this, so with time (brain training), you get what you fed. As the philosopher said, "you are what you eat", true for neurology as well. Same reasoning explains being able to orgasm to porn, but having problems without it (in vaginal or oral sex, which has also been reported as impaired). And why PIED goes along a spectrum, a gradual process as the referred neural rewiring are continuous transitions in development, not overnight, but certainly taking a definitive goal (as far as your subcortical brain pertains, irrespective of conscious judgement).

2. Let's introduce some terminology. Lump heterosexual, homosexual or whatever, as long as it is drive towards real partners, natursexual. Call drive to porn pixels, digisexual or cybersexual. Many compulsive porn consumers say they become asexuals. Not really. What is happening? They are digisexuals (conditioned or learned), but, because "neurons that fire apart, wire apart", means neuroplasticity is competitive, so S to N stop firing at the same time, therefore they physically start to disconnect (like a flaccid muscle, "use it or lose it"). It is similar to having a cable for S, and two plugs for N or P. We have at the neural level unplugged S from N to plug it to P. The more is repeated, not only the P path connections take over, the N path weakens.
"The winner takes it all", it is the result of plasticity being like a zero sum game, a competition for a resource (receiving electrical activity, as water if cells were trees). One grows at the expense of the other. Hence, end up porn addicted, but with low libido (feeling wrongly described as "asexual", as it was diverted like a river) towards real mates.

To the extent that S to N evolved for your reproductive success and the transmission of your genes, you can say that Porn has been a parasite installed in the brain causing your reproductive failure. It took the resources (bioelectricity) to N, made skinny the grip to it, while P became obese by stealing the legitimate resources to N, and took a grip on your prefrontal cortex to make it a slave of his pathological nourishment. If we were talking about different species in a ecosystem, wouldn't you describe P's dynamics as an evil parasite? Or a tumor, if you prefer, as it grows at your biological value expense, taking resources not naturally aimed for it.

3. It explains why recovery is not simply abstaining, it is not only passive, it must be proactive as well. You have to feed to S to N connections, letting S to P weaken (not feeding it) is half of the story. A wise person said, "everything that exists must be fed". The sun (hydrogen), the Earth (light)... and neural connections!. Porn was the junk food of our arousal systems, but quitting also involves eating healthy food. Same here. Become natursexual again. Spend time with partners, let yourself be naturally aroused as much as you can, try to get a boner for sexy partners on the street, college or job (even if it is just using your imagination, but not porn scenarios, keep it natural), go to the beach... . I think recovery is much quicker if you already have a partner, use that priviledge as a detox therapy (many of us are single, harder for us).

As Yoda said, "you must unlearn what you have learned" (hebbian rule)... and relearn what you forgot. At least if you want your own darwinian success! That is what Zimbardo said, porn is the demise of guys, it is not an overstatement, it can be reasoned why it is scientifically true. In short: natursexual, reproductive success; digisexual, reproductive failure (at least, pulls you there though a vicious cycle: porn addiction->loneliness or isolation (particularly natursexual isolation)->porn addiction).

 

Great lessons here
I wish knew this years ago.
I am responsible for whatever I did to myself
Now I will keep on getting better for myself

 

Glad to contribute to NoFap, the community connection helps myself and if I can help others to "liberate", becoming a free (sexual) human being, I fill even more fulfilled.

In cognitive behavioral therapy, they say the first step is to understand your problem. I can help with that because of my scientific education, but the journey is everybody's own liberation path. I provide 2 links you (all) might enjoy.

https://fightthenewdrug.org/fifty-ways-porn-kills-love/

https://gettingstronger.org/stoicism/

And a cool podcast that relates to my previous explanations to some extent.

https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/mis...res-his-tips-for-reversing-addiction-show-22/

More podcasts available typing cybersex jungle in YBOP to understand our arousal addictions and break free.

 

Are morning/nocturnal erections a reliable sign of hormone levels being ok?

I started nofap because one day I seemed to just completely lose interest in sex - whether that be actual sex, masturbation or porn. At first I thought it was just a phase that would pass so I carried on watching porn/masturbating as normal even though I felt little urge to do so but weeks and then months went by and I still felt the same, girls used to be on my mind all the time and now they just weren't at all. At that point I tried to find out what was going on and if you google loss of sex drive then low testosterone always come up first. This caused me to stress and worry thinking that I'm going to need injections just to feel "normal" again - not that I have any issue with those that are on T for whatever reason.

Some time after that, whilst still feeling the same, I again look up what my problem could be down to and I found nofap. I had heard of nofap before but never really knew what the premise behind it was. I've got to admit, I was(and maybe still am to some degree) sceptical about the whole thing but thought I have nothing to lose by giving it a try. So the next few months I go on a bunch of mini-streaks of 5-10 days but keep relapsing, sometimes out of fear or frustration, or out of sheer compulsion to look at porn. I still felt no better than before but knew I needed to stick at it for the long haul if I'm to see any kind of result.

I'm now on day 30 and libido is still low/non-existent so no change there but for about the past 10 days or so I've been getting consistent and increasingly strong nocturnal/morning erections. I think I must have been hard all of last night as every time I woke up(my sleep on nofap has been disrupted to say the least) it was still there and wouldn't go down. I can't remember how long it's been since I've experienced that.

So back to my question, I know that only blood panels will tell me for sure but would the strong night/morning erections suggest that my levels are probably ok? I can still get hard by thoughts or touch too but I just don't have that urge to splurge anymore. I'd certainly much rather it was a dopamine issue than a physical or hormonal one.

 

Friends,

You can check out these articles, one is about the flatline, the other about the benefits of cold shower, which I can recommend from personal experience to curb withdrawals and cultivate self discipline (try it for a month every day to notice the benefits).


https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/por...l-size-and-or-libido-are-decreasing-flatline/

https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/too...from-porn-addiction/♦solo-tools/cold-showers/

 

Bump!
A very helpful and informative thread.