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P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Man the clinical levels of anxiety I had at my worst was absolutely soul destroying. I couldnt even breathe properly, I was sighing/gasping for air every minute or so. The racing thoughts, flashes of light in vision, palpitations, twitches all over body, terrible insomnia, social anxiety, anhedonia, brain fog to the max, ADD symptoms more so and so many more I've forgotten about now plagued me terribly. I might of well as been a mannequin or a robot I didn't feel human whatsoever.

    These days I'm about 75 percent there. I think once my sleep improves and I can actually have deep sleep, something I've struggled with for many years I'll feel like a man for well, maybe, the first time in my life.
     
  2. Seeking_the_answers

    Seeking_the_answers Fapstronaut

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    My focus right now is getting back on track for a proper recovery. Hopefully no severe symptoms return after a while. I just have to fight the chaser effect and slight brain fog.
     
  3. So fasted for about 16 hours and drank more water. I've felt energetic, should I say purified. I went for a few kilometer walk mixed with running. Symptoms are still there, but overall it's been a good experience, so I shall do that again.

    That's a good one, and I think any kind of board game would do wonders as well.

    I'd say some people are just more sensitive than others. Some can't stand any kind of smell, noise or lights. It's the same with PMO. Some may view porn a lot and not change for the worse, but for a sensitive person it can be destructive. I think it's more destructive for an intelligent person, introverted type of a guy. I've always been anxied and never felt like a true man. My testosterone levels have been pretty low, but in the normal range. I've never felt like a muscular man full of testosterone and having energy and passion for manly things and women and sex in general. I wonder if this whole reboot will change that, but I have my doubts. Thing is, in psychology, a congenital introvert can never exceed an extrovert. Both can become more introverted or extroverted as time goes by, but they can never change positions on the introvert - extrovert line.
     
  4. Did you recently have a binge? If so, how did it affect you after 2 years of abstinence.
     
  5. filmit57

    filmit57 Fapstronaut

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    I’m on a 355 day hardmode streak and I was asked if I was on drugs today these PAWS really mess you up. I feel worse than when I used to use PMO some days.
     
  6. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Unfortunately i cant see signatures on my phone :p
     
  7. filmit57

    filmit57 Fapstronaut

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    I hear ya it’s annoying
     
    Ezpz likes this.
  8. I've had two binges since october and it did not effect me that much, I felt tired and lazy after. But if I had managed to catch some sleep later that night I noticed no effects.

    Whatever you do dont bingethough because it's a dark path back. Not worth it. Porn still leaves you with a warp perverted mind after, its sickening and so far away from a real companion. My anxiety levels nowdays is much more controlled and calm. I'm starting to feel more grounded and in the present.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2020
  9. Got you bro!
     
  10. Oberyn123

    Oberyn123 Fapstronaut

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    I am 16 yo, 11 months in and in heavy paws. I became addict during only 2 years and quickly escalated into some sick submissive stuff. Currently in 3 month long wave of paws which includes extremely low concentration and motivation which led me to be homeschooled and to start taking ssri´s antidepressant prescribed by doctor. What is your experience with escalation and taking meds during paws?
     
  11. Indurian

    Indurian Fapstronaut

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    Well done dealing with this at your age, keep going. You are likely in a very small minority abstaining, and you've made a very good choice
     
    AspiringVitality likes this.
  12. showmethepmofacts

    showmethepmofacts Fapstronaut

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    When I first started nofap I also couldn’t go to high school (years ago) due to, which I didn’t know at the time, withdrawals. Only take the SSRI if you must (you’re suicidal). They do help
     
  13. Randy83

    Randy83 New Fapstronaut

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    How are ? Are you curder now ?
     
  14. Oberyn123

    Oberyn123 Fapstronaut

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    did your withdrawals end? do you think meds have an effect on reboot?
     
  15. Would be great if someone with paws would consider testing out red light/near-infrared light therapy to see if that helps with the symptoms, and speed up brain changes. I only suggest to try it if you already got a good relationship with God/spiritual life, social life, exercise routine, avoid triggers wells + good sleeping habits + spends few hours in daylight + well enough diet.

    You need to know the good "dosing" for that, I would suggest to read this book about the topic first:
    The Ultimate Guide To Red Light Therapy: How to Use Red and Near-Infrared Light Therapy for Anti-Aging, Fat Loss, Muscle Gain, Performance, and Brain Optimization by Ari Whitten.

    I must warn you, we can not know if that helps, or harms the process, do it on your own risk. You have to buy also a red/infrared light device too, that book tells you how to choose.

    Would be great if it works well against general paws symptoms, so no one have to take ssri pills or other drugs. that can cause bad things too if you sensitive to them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2020
    Oberyn123 likes this.
  16. showmethepmofacts

    showmethepmofacts Fapstronaut

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    What do you guys think about the theory of having screwed up the HPTA axis having abused PMO? I believe that chronic PMO would put a lot of stress on it and that suddenly stopping PMO would throw it into shutdown until it adjusts.

    It would explain most symptoms, especially social anxiety, depression, LOSS OF LIBIDO, temporary erectile dysfunction, brain fog.

    One way to test for it would be to get bloodwork done for Testosterone, LH (luteinizing hormone), and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone).

    One way to treat/cure it would be an aromatase inhibitor called Anastrozole.

    I am going to have blood work done and if tests show signs I will get on Anastrozole and report back.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  17. Hey man, I understand what you're trying to say. HPTA dysfunction can indeed cause all these problems as well. I did however do a bloodtest (I will attach this under this post) And almost all were in range. Not IGF1 and LH, because I used low dose aromasin (also an aromatase inhibitor like anastrozole, but a bit stronger) So I already did your experiment, and it did not help me. ^^

    An AI would trick the estrogen receptors in the negative feedback loop center the hypothalamus, to think there is not enough estrogen, so then sends gonadotropin releasing hormone to the pituitary, which then sends more LH and FSH to the testes to increase sperm cells, testosterone and thereby also it's conversion to other sex hormones like DHT and estrogen. But I guess you're familiar with this already.

    I also used IGF1 / HGH increasing peptides. Thats why my IGF1 level is so high.

    For me (and most of us) it's definitely dopamine withdrawal (activation of the anti-reward pathway) It's more an HPA axis dysfunction for us than an HPTA dysfunction.

    Screenshot_20200206-004628.png
    My bloodwork during a nofap streak. Even after a steroid cycle, there was no HPTA dysfunction. Also because I did a proper PCT with tamoxifen and used HCG during the cycle. Also no prolactin issues, while I PMO binged the night before.


    I made this post on another topic about nofap, decline in masculinity and steroid hormones:

    "ezpz said: Except for a spike after roughly 7 days, nofap does not increase testosterone whatsoever. This is a common myth"

    My response:
    "Exactly. There is also this histeria about androgen receptors declining and estrogen receptors increasing. According to one study done on rats, it only happens to the parts of the hypothalamus that regulate sexual satiety (like prolactin raising right after orgasms, but get back to almost baseline in a couple of hours or days)

    There is actually more estrogen in cows milk than little traces of BPA in plastic bottles, or phytoestrogens in soy. Cows milk could harm our endocrine systems more than a little BPA or soy. There are some contradicting studies that came out of this. Both anti-vegans and vegans like to cherry pick the studies that supports their belief system. I saw the SOY BOY video from Paul Joseph Watson, and it was funny as fuck. But some of his claims about soy have been debunked.

    Why aren't we more manly these day? Could be because of lots factors ofcourse. A lot of men are overweight and have more aromatase enzymes and therefore more estradiol and less testosterone, dihydrotestosterone and neurosteroids. Most men these days sit 10 hours a day in an office with industrial lighting and getting no vitamine D. They do nothing but eating "donuts, cookies and drinking coffee" Watching a screen everyday, then coming back home and repeat the same things till they go to bed, and sleep like shit because of inactivity.

    Back in the days men were much more physically active and in touch with nature and did not have access to the junk food like we have now. There was also no high speed internet porn to mess up how our dopaminergic circuits that makes some of us here total "beta's". There are many more factors. The media could also be a cause.

    There are also no studies back in the ancient times to measure their testosterone, so it's just pure speculation, but I believe it to be true anyway. But back in ancient times they did not know much about hygiene and illnesses and died way younger tho.

    Some decades ago there were much higher average testosterone levels according to the studies done on the endocrine system of young and adult men. So test levels are very much declining the last decades. What causes the decline exactly? That's the million dollar question. I really have no idea why there are so many feminized men today lol. Maybe Alex Jones was right when he said they put chemicals in the water that turn the freaking frogs gay. ;)

    Why do some men with high testosterone not get deeper voices or masculine viritility "Chad" like features? It all depends on the genetic makeup of the androgenic receptors and converting enzymes like 5-alpha-reductase (to the much stronger androgenic dihydrotestosterone and important endogenous benzodiazepine like neurosteroids like 3a-Androstenediol, which can make you feel more calm and "alpha") and aromatase (to the feminizing estrogen, mostly the estradiol hormone) Both just need to be in perfect homeostasis. Men with estrogen dominance will have feminized features like gyno and even smaller dicks.

    Some men just (especially in their teenage years have much more sensitive or more expression of androgen receptors or 5a-Reductase expression in their body, face, brain, genitals etc. during their puberty till early twenties. That's why they get these masculine features that other young guys and men don't have. It's all mostly genetics and maybe also a bit epigenetics.

    Men with more androgen receptors or 5a-Reductase expression in their scalps or prostate have more chance of going bald or having an enlarged prostate (or even prostate cancer for that matter) These men should use finasteride (an 5a-Reductase inhibitor) This decreases DHT levels and for some can cause severe depression, anxiety, libido issues and brainfog as a side effect. (Also because of the hypethesis of less calming neurosteroids)

    Why do some men on nofap increase their testosterone according to the blood work that they have done? Could also be many factors. Most men start to eat healthier, sleep better, get more dopamine sensitivity (this could raise confidence and status), so it could also raise testosterone levels a little bit. Most of these guys start getting real pussy, have less stressfull lives because their social anxiety is cured (social anxiety causes major cortisol spikes, which are ofcourse catabolic and anti-androgenic) Most men start to lift weights and get more testosterone levels because of that. Getting more muscle also means getting more androgen receptors.

    Again there can be many factors at play here. It's mostly broscience untill now. But bear in mind, some research can always come out to support that maybe for some men, abstaining from porn and fapping alone can cause higher test levels by itself. Because some scientists still don't even believe porn addiction is a real phenomenom. I'm open for any theory / hypotheses.

    Im going a bit offtopic here tho. But there is some broscience going on this forum that claims that nofap increases androgen receptor expression mRNA in the whole body, causing one to feel more masculine and get masculine traits. This is total broscience till now.

    The short spike of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone during sex and orgasms is noway near enough to desensitize the nuclear type androgen receptors throughout the whole body. (Just in the hypothalamus and maybe some other parts like the genitals perhaps?)

    Steroid users don't experience androgen receptor desensitization because of their steroid use, and they use anabolic/androgenic compounds with way more stronger binding affiinity and duration at the androgen receptors (like halotestin). If there was a study done on fapping decreasing AR expression, all gymrats (like me) would be doing nofap just because of that. No, nofap works by sensitizing the dopaminergic pathways (mesolimbic pathway) and G-protein dopamine receptors (mostly D2).

    There are also receptors in the body that just don't desensitize that easily when a ligand like a neurotansmitter or a hormone binds to them. Some receptors even have a contradictive reaction like both 5ht2a agonists (serotonergic psychedelics) that activate that serotonin receptor or the atypical antipsychotics that block serotonin 5ht2a receptors as an antagonist. They both desensitize the 5ht2a receptor which is just like dopamine receptors a G-protein coupled receptor weirdly enough.

    What do think what happens to bodybuilders that are doing steroid cycles years after years. Using all kind of testosterone and DHT derivatives. Do they desensitize their androgen receptors by using exogenous steroids? No. A lot of bodybuilders keep using the same steroid cycles years after years and never complain about losing gains. They still keep making gains even with the same gear. But the more muscle you make, the more androgen receptors you actually make in the muscle tissue. They actually create muscle hypertrophy and with the use of real IGF1 and real growth hormone they even create more muscle cells because of the phenomenom called hyperplasia. More muscle cells, means more AR expression. Some bodybuilders increase their dosage because they have more AR's to satiate. Not because of tolerance.

    This is what makes most of us feel good on nofap when PAWS is gone: It's the increased dopamine and endorphin sensitivity. Not an increase in testosterone perse. You can have the highest levels of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone in the world, but if your dopaminergic pathways and receptors are fucked. Testosterone will not make you feel "alpha", and your libido will not be so good if your dopamine circuits are fucked. You can still build more and faster muscles with high test tho."

    I know I said I would be taking a break from this forum, but very interesting topics like these always make me want to come back and respond :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
  18. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    Hi,

    I've read this now. Thanks for the suggestion. Kind of a life changing book, and I'd recommend it to anyone who is looking to improve their overall health, or health-span. Some of the things they recommend are things I've been doing, but others, not so much...

    One of the key things that seems to promote longevity is social connection - it seems to be as influential as anything else, and it's something that PMO destroys. It has in my case.
     
  19. AspiringVitality

    AspiringVitality Fapstronaut

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    Yes! Healthy social interaction relaxes the vagus nerve and activates the healthy part of the para-sympathetic nervous system.

    Your nervous system will immediately tell you if some social activity you're doing feels safe or not. If it doesn't, you need to take some rest because you're being overstimulated and you're more likely to put your CNS into freeze-mode. Really trust your body in this and this can change on a day-to-day basis.

    When you're having safe and fun social interactions you're activating the rest&digest system and releases healthy hormones and neurotransmitters. Deep conversations with people where you feel laughter, sighing, yawning, or suddenly bursting out in tears means that you're probably are releasing deeper pain and tensions in the CNS.

    Without some healthy social interactions we cannot survive eventually
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  20. showmethepmofacts

    showmethepmofacts Fapstronaut

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    Oh wow you were the right person to ask then. Good to hear that you already tried it. So how come a person can go 2 weeks until they feel the withdrawal effects? Do you think the brain waits for this period of time until it starts to stop producing dopamine since it recognizes there won’t be anymore PMO so why supply it?
     
    SLeepisLost likes this.

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