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P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Thanks Don that's one of the kindest posts I've ever read on here truly, people like you who helped me very much in my early stages on this forum you really seem to understand it fully. I will update you all in due time.

    "But it has been blow out my brains bad for me--cognitive impairment to the point of absurd mental retardation, brain inflammation, the foggiest shit storm I could never have imagined pre-paws, and rank poisonous depression gushing through my veins."

    I felt as though I was braindead for so long, racing thoughts, heavy brain inflammation with head pressure/tension headaches, fogginess, flashing lights in eyes, brain zaps amongst many others I have forgot now. Even basic menial tasks I would struggle with but it does get better.

    'I'm starting to realize other parts of my life are shitty, out of balance, and need worked on that are contributing to the totality of my life.'

    Again with this attitude mark my words you will defeat this with every ounce of fight in you, this is absolutely crucial that in stages you do this overtime, don't overwhelm yourself. But tackle this and I am not a betting man but I would say you would be the happiest you have ever been once you sort that out!
     
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  2. Welcome back to the forum man. Your threads give me reassurance that I will be back to normal as soon as possible. I'm 19 months of heavy paws without counting the previous streaks with paws. My head was enflammed as well and it had stripes(marks) when touching it. Now my belly having those marks. Head pressure and brain fog are still huge man. Feel like my brain start waking up slowly day by day and I notice huge improvements each month now.
     
  3. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    I am happy you are still getting better after a few set backs.

    Of course a lot of guys on here are just looking for some hope and inspiration. We are looking to see if someone has made it to the other side in order to reassure ourselves that we are on the right track. I know during some of the darkest days while on this journey i would come here and desperately search for some hope and motivation to keep going.

    One thing i have found out during my reboot is that after a relapse my rebooting experience would change, for the better or worse. It still seems to me to be completely unpredictable. Im like @Big Lebowski in that i have suffered from these symptoms for a long time before nofap. I had been looking for answers for my declining health from 17 - 23 until i found nofap. I can say that i was in a flatline some sorts for all those years. I was completely fucked back then, my symptoms reaching a peak as i became desperate to find answers.

    Since my last relapse 7 months ago symptoms are night and day. I think of it now as a flatline, though i have no PIED due to previous sexual experience. This flatline ended twice in janurary and also ended one long time in February/March. I am now back in the flatline, though all the symptoms that usually come with it have gone down a lot. It seems my bad periods are getting better and the good periods are getting longer and better each time. I am confident now that this month will be even better than last month, so i will keep you guys posted on when exactly my flatline ends again :)
     
  4. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    I totally agree with this. This thread has meant a lot to me because there is nowhere else either online or IRL where I've found people going through the same experience, and having the inspiration of hearing from people who are further along or recovered more or less completely is a big morale boost, and gives me more motivation to stick with it.

    Nothing else particularly to say, other than a big thankyou to everyone who is contributing - it means a lot.
     
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  5. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I agree with everything you've written. We can't rule out "phantom limb syndrome". I'm just trying to establish some "line in the sand" for recovery. I find it very discouraging when people write that you need 1 year of recovery for every 2 or 3 years of addiction without any scientific or even anecdotal evidence to back this up. If I'd believe that I might just kill myself and be done with it as I'd need 8-13 years to fully recover. That's why I try to find some hope in empirical observations of medical professionals and some very limited studies (mainly a long-term study at Johns Hopkins University on alcoholics) done on the topic most of them pointing out 6-24 months timeline for most addicts/alcoholicts BUT According to JH study "some cases could take 10 years to return to "normal levels.". PAWS is still not an official medical diagnosis, but we can all agree that the syndrome is very real at least for us who have to live with it on daily basis. I get really scared how precisely PAWS describe my mental/physical state after 14 months of complete abstinence (21 if I count in previous long streak too). I can relate to nearly all of the symptoms mentioned in the study:

    1. Unstable and Unpredictable Moods (mood swings) -> rapid and intensely fluctuating emotions (from euphoria to depression, anxiety, anger).
    2. Anhedonia -> losing interest in things that you previously enjoyed doing, sometimes described as having your ability to feel pleasure turned off.
    3. Intensified Emotions or Feelings of Numbness -> Patients tend to overreact. Sometimes they can become overly excited and excessively angry over small matters, then go into a stage of not feeling any emotions at all. Some describe it as being empty or numb inside.
    4. Inability to Concentrate or Think Clearly -> Rigid or repetitive thinking
    5. Poor Coordination and Clumsiness -> I didn't perceive myself as clumsy, but other people have noticed my slowness and poor coordination (I didn't used to be clumsy)
    5. Sleep Disturbances -> Can't fall asleep then can't wake up on time and waking up tired no matter how long I oversleep in my case
    6. Increased Sensitivity to Stress -> they not only more easily stressed, but can become overwhelmed by even slightly stressful situations. Treatment experts believe that this hypersensitivity to stress can exacerbate all the other post-acute withdrawal symptoms
    7. Low energy and fatigue
    8. Inexplicable chronic pain
    9. Low libido
    10. Strong Cravings
    -> This one is lucky not a problem for me anymore

    I can tick off 9 out of 10... PAWS are my LIFE :( God damn it, this describes mental and physical state I'm in perfectly.

    Author of mentioned study suggest Symptoms Management: Because stress can make PAWS symptom more intense, learning to manage stress can help you control your post-acute withdrawal symptoms

    Tips for Managing PAWS Symptoms
    According to "Staying Sober" these are tools that you can use to control withdrawal symptoms:
    • Identify your sources of stress
    • Develop decision-making and problem-solving skills
    • Maintain a proper diet
    • Exercise regularly
    • Develop regular habits
    • Keep a positive attitude
    • Learn relaxation skills
    The problem is I've been trying to implement all these points (more or less successfully) into my daily life with limited results. They help me keep my head afloat at best. My life has turned from being (un)comfortably numb "I don't give a fuck living zombie" when in addiction into Robbie Williams' song: "I don't wanna die, but I'm not keen on living either." I had a job interview today and looked so disinterested that they asked me why did I even bother applying for the job. I can't even act of being excited anymore. That's why I need some point in time when I can hope that this state will end so I can experience some joy in life again. As it is, the life doesn't feel like worth living. I just couldn't handle a decade or more of the same.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  6. millstone

    millstone New Fapstronaut

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    This is my first post here, so forgive me for jumping into a random thread.

    I've been dealing with this since middle of last year when I started by "nofap journey", and every time I relapse (regardless of porn use) the symptoms come back with a roaring vengeance. The duration is not as long (days instead of weeks) but the intensity is worse than the last.

    Gary Wilson briefly mentions "Kindling" in some of his literature and talks, specifically noting the danger. However, I can't find much information online about the details, anywhere, about the depth of kindling (specifically from pornography) and what impact it has on this community.

    My thought is this - does anyone else believe what we are going through is - in fact - systematic kindling due to longer intervals of abstinence?

    Kindling = PAWS

    I personally believe that while your body is in flatline, it is protecting itself so it can focus on the right neurological repairs (to the best of its ability). Every time you disrupt that process, you're frying the wiring as it's trying to heal. A heightened or sensitive parasympathetic frequency that falls into Fight or Flight every time it's poked.

    When I started my journey, I started it because the edging and porn use controlled my life. Literally 3 hour sessions, never finishing sometimes (tricked myself back then thinking semen retention would save my relationship with my significant other), and then the anxiety started taking its toll. I put two and two together and decided to cut porn, but every time I go a while and either have sex or masturbate (without porn) the symptoms flare up again.

    Doing more research on the kindling concept with Alcohol or Benzo withdrawal, there is a pile of symptoms that identically mirror what many self-reported sufferers are going through (myself included). These include but are not limited to:
    • Sleep disturbances
    • Increased tension
    • Anxiety
    • Panic attacks
    • Difficulty concentrating
    • Excessive sweating
    • Heart palpitations
    • Headache
    • Muscular stiffness or discomfort
    • Mild to moderate changes in perception
    • Cravings
    • Hand tremors
    Less common and more severe symptoms can occur as well, especially in cases of severe addiction. These include:
    • Hallucinations
    • Seizures
    • Psychosis or psychotic reactions
    • Increased risk of suicidal ideation
    Source: Addiction Center website (won't let me post the link).

    -----

    A lot of the physiological symptoms that happen seem to be related to GABA receptors misfiring, or chronic depletion of GABA, among other things. Essentially what the receptors are intended to do (pump the brakes) they do the opposite (crippling anxiety and panic // triggered extreme fight or flight).

    It makes me wonder what cascade of hormonal changes and orgasmic shock surge through the body to trigger this cascade of symptoms to go into overdrive. I myself definitely notice a very malfunctioning HPA-Axis every time I relapse. My blood is full of adrenaline, it takes days for my body to excrete it / mop it up, and every time is worse than the last.

    Another thing I've noticed is that usage of a Benzodiazepine seems to quell the symptoms. I was prescribed Klonopin back in 2013 for anxiety related to flying / travel. I would only use it very sparingly over the years. But the withdrawal literature I'm reading on Benzo Withdrawal seems to be a reflection of pornography withdrawal. The fact that the Benzo seems to quell the symptoms makes me believe all of these systems are interoperable, and we've likely kindled ourselves by attempting to start NoFap in the first place. My other concern is the more Benzo use, the more tolerance, and then it's dealing with a Benzo withdrawal problem on top of a pornography addition problem.

    In addition, I've seen a lot of correlation between supplements such as High Dose Taurine and High Dose Niacin (Vitamin B3) being used to treat both Benzo withdrawal and "pornography withdrawal" (PAWS). To me, that only strengthens the correlation / similarity of problems.

    For those who are self-reporting that their symptoms seem to never go away after years of abstinence, could they very well be kindled? For those who report healing after prolonged abstinence (several years) is there hope that those suffering could be reset to a proper baseline?
     
  7. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    The symptoms you're describing are acute withdrawal symptoms and from my experience most of them go away after 3-4 months of hardmode (maybe with exception of anxiety and insomnia). PAWS are milder but persistent symptoms, for example: anhedonia opposed to clinical depression you experience during first days and months, anxiety/irritability opposed to panic attacks similar to heart attack (one even rushed me to hospital), general fatigue opposed to joint pains and headache…. For me first 40 days of hardmode are always like having a really bad flu followed by insomnia, crazy mood swings, clinical depression, panic attacks and cravings. Then things start to settle down gradually until 5-6 months into recovery when classical PAWS slowly take over. It's quite shocking, because you start to feel better, but never reach a stage where you can say, I'm at 100 %. You're not acutely sick anymore, but feel kind of "shitty" all the time. Can't sleep, then you oversleep, wake up tired regardless how many hours you have slept, nothing motivates/excites you anymore, you find no joy in doing anything, even food you used to love eating tastes meh now. Your body feels tired and weak with chronic pains, even though it's objectively in better shape than it was before NoFap, because you got used to exercising on daily basis …
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
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  8. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    This is exactly my thoughts. I relapsed at 6-7 months before I was fully healed and now 5 months later I am still not even back to pre-relapse state. Both PAWS and Kindling is real in my experience.
     
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  9. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    How long did your relapse last? I relapsed badly (3 months long daily binges) in may 2018 after 7 months of hardmode and had to start from scratch on Aug 2018. Withdrawals I experienced were worse than in my previous streak. The point I'm trying to make is, if you relapse hard, you kill all the progress you've made and possibly even strengthen addiction.
     
  10. Judging by some of your replies, I'm confused wether you close to healing or not. Because I went through most the symptoms you stated above. Or maybe the withdrawals came backwards compare to other severe rebooters.

    Brief, I used to work out, go to work, put myself out there but I didn't feel anything. No sex drive, no libido. Relapse each 60 days due to excess of energy surge or stress. Then something happened on day 15 after the last relapse. I lost cognitive function, All senses gone, wondered if I was alive or not, body parts felt broken, lot of tremors and shakes, chemical imbalances in the brain..... Now on month 19, All organs correlate to reproduction are still in repairing stage but got some glimpes of regain joy once in a blue moon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  11. millstone

    millstone New Fapstronaut

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    I understand the question was directed at humbleone, but for sake of drawing comparisons... when I relapse (including actual regular sexual activity), it is a one-off moment, perhaps after 5 to 15 days of abstinence. It doesn’t result in any ongoing binge activity, but the after effects are very real, and much worse than each previous time.

    The mind and body seem to bounce back after 2 to 3 days of rest, once the insomnia settles down enough to get a restorative night’s sleep. This yo-yo effect seems like its Kindling at work.

    The longest streak I had since starting this journey was when i first began in September. I went the whole month 30 days hard mode. When I relapsed in October, I fell into the worst depression I’ve ever experienced in my life. Total anhedonia for two weeks. I had to force physical activity in the form of landscaping work on my house to get back into reality.

    This past month I started a regimen of Prozac (10 mg) which seems to help with the depression, so the only thing that gets out of control from relapse symptoms is anxiety. It’s serious overload with full nights of insomnia and such doom / dread / fear that suicide feels like the only option. This subsided when the adrenaline clears out of the body.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
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  12. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    I essentially had a 24 hr straight binge on cocaine sex and porn, and through me into the hardest flatline I had to date. Those were some dark 2-3 months following that relapse

    Although every 3 months I kind of relapse to sexual fantasy as I get attacked and can indulge non stop for upto a week, this always leaves me with a host of intense symptoms for upto a month or so following before progress returns
     
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  13. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    It's hard to say. I've definitely broken out of addiction, but I'm still nowhere near a state what healthy individual would consider normal. I have to keep up with my daily routine of walking/cycling/running for at least an hour and take supplements to keep stable mental state. I can skip day or two but more will put me in a state of major clinical depression very soon. Deterioration of mental state is subtle at first, but gets worse with every day of inactivity. Also anhedonia doesn't want to leave. I conditioned myself to do things that need to be done, but I find hardly any joy in doing them. The only thing that keeps me disciplined is the knowledge what will follow of I don't. I live in some kind of limbo. Robbie Williams described it best:"I don't wanna die, but I'm not keen on living either."
     
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  14. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Totally agree with your point about making a line in the sand. We have to all figure out for ourselves specifically where these symptoms are originating from. Its easy to get confused at what is happening due to such a broad range of symptoms happening all at once.

    I have changed nothing of my routine over the past 7 months (always had a range of healthy habits) and i have improved out of sight since the first few months.

    specifically i can relate to your point about anhedonia. My emotions still seem fairly non existent, except for anger which i often get for no reason. Everything in life just seems so boring. Work, tv, fun activities i use to love. Keep in mind i use to like all these things. Now work is just some chore i have to go through each day.

    Have you had some good weeks where these symptoms have improved out of sight? Or are you mainly just stuck, each day being pretty similar?
     
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  15. clapas

    clapas Fapstronaut

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    We cannot live without light, hence light is (must be) good. And we were created in the image of God, hence we create differentiated things with words.
     
  16. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    Good question. I get boosts of energy every day after returning from aerobic exercise, lasting couple of hours (probably because of released endorphins), but outside of that period it's been a "gray life". I can't think of a week in the last 430 days for which I could say I felt motivated and physically/mentally well. But then again, this could be also associated with having chronic pain in my leg for which doctors can't figure out what is causing it. You get used to pain over time, but it still wreak havoc on body and mind. As I've said, many factors may influence the state I'm in and I can't say if PAWS is to blame for all my ills. Some people get aggressive when one tries to search for possible answers outside of PAWS, but I do think everyone should look past PAWS at some point in time. If I look at my case, there has been numerus serious studies establishing link between chronic pain and depression. How can I be sure if my proneness to depression isn't more linked to the leg pain and not PAWS? I just can't. Others may have other problems outside of paws that may be affecting their well being.
     
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  17. winningover

    winningover Fapstronaut

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    Guys, thanks everyone for talking about this. I think patience is the key here. I myself am suffering a lot into my 11th month. I met an Indian guy who recovered 100% after suffering through 650 days. He also has a youtube channel but since the language used is Hindi, most of you won't understand. His PAWS were very very similar to mine. Panic attacks, hypersensitivity to stress, social anxiety, palpitations, shortness of breath etc etc. It just gave me hope. His reboot was hard mode. He says time is the most important healer in all this. He did fasting, exercise and meditation here and there during his journey.

    Now 650 days is a lot of time. if I haven't lost my job until now, I will definitely lose it by that time if I don't recover before that.
     
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  18. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    Focus your mind on the path instead of final destination. Ask yourself in the evening "what can I do tomorrow that will make me feel better?". Write answers on a piece of paper and put it in your pocket. Next day your only worry should be to achieve the tasks on the paper and then ticking them off. Do that every single day and you'll be amazed how much your life has changed in a month or two. Achieving small goals really leads to great changes over time. I like Confucius' quote addressing this topic:"When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps."
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  19. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    In the early stages of my recovery, i just felt more tired after a workout. Now im starting to feel better after one. This is definitely down to the depleted dopamine receptors, in my opinion. It is a good thing that you can at least do something to help you through the days. I believe that exercise is one of the only proven ways of speeding up recovery, though i cant be certain. I know it helps immediately with mood and long term with neurogenesis and stress.

    You are right, you cant be certain you are not depressed from other factors. There are some ways to find out, though im sure you have your suspicions already. For example, how is your libido after such a long abstinence? All my symptoms seem to get much better when i am out of the flat line.

    I found hope after my flat line ended the third time. This confirmed to me my suspicions that time was all that was needed in my case and it breathed new life into me. I have no doubts that your suffering will end my friend, just keep doing what you are doing. Every shitty day that goes by is a day you don't have to deal with again, as long as we stay PMO free. This is how i think of it.:)
     
  20. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Thanks for sharing. 650 days is a long time, but we are all different and i am largely optimistic that the recovery process will be sooner rather than later :)

    I truly hope things get better for you and you don't lose your job. Hang in there and keep doing what you can
     
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