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P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. winningover

    winningover Fapstronaut

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    Thanks @Fenix Rising and @Ezpz for your generous comments and feedback. Specifically, I would like to thank @Fenix Rising for making this priceless thread on this forum and everyone else who have contributed to this. We are pioneers in this and leaving something for people to come and recover through this over the coming years. I suspect the number of cases and intensity will only increase over the coming decade until the reverse process of awareness and labeling this as an addiction takes place. In the meanwhile, this forum and especially threads like this are pure gold. I have read this thread in entirety and despite difference of opinion on several matters among members, anyone going through PAWS can find many answers or relate-able things others are going through as well. This is very important to keep yourself sane and faith in the process. Difficult days are hard. Time slows down. Seconds turn into minutes, minutes to hours, hours to days, days to months.... you tend to forget the real you and start accepting this as your new reality. We can't do that. AND, we won't!
     
  2. clapas

    clapas Fapstronaut

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    Thanks for your post @winningover, it was very encouraging to read it.
     
  3. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    @winningover thanks for posting regarding the successful recovery. 650 days is around 21 months. So lies within the expected bounds. We are all probably looking at 18-24 months recovery. Im currently in month 13 and symptoms still remain.

    Can you ask this guy if his recovery was like DarkSektur who reported his symptoms remained up until the very end, and then suddenly stopped over a week period. That would be very helpful especially for those of us whos symptoms are remaining consistent.

    Also can people over 12 months let me know what their cravings and sexual fantasies are like, I get bad cravings for sex or sexual fantasies once a month or 90 days, how about everyone else? Im worried if this is normal or slowing my progress (although there isn't much I can do about it)
     
  4. Wheter it's PAWS from cocaine, opiates, amphetamines or any dopaminergic drug. They all somewhat activate the same pathways that sexual activity (porn) activates as well. GABAergics, SSRI's and opiates work on some other receptors and have therefore different symptoms and different duration of healing time. Although all the PAWS symptoms from any drug look very similar to one another.

    I think the worst kind of PAWS is from GABAergics (ethanol, benzos, barbiturates, GHB, baclofen, phenibut) But still, PAWS is PAWS. It did not really matter if someone on here was addicted to opiates, cocaine, porn or speed.

    They all activate the same mesocorticolimbic pathway neurons and increase DeltaFosB and turn the brain into an addicted state and when the habit is stopped, the anti reward pathway (overactive amygdala and extra stress hormones cortisol, dynorphins, noradrenaline and low GABA) sets in. HPA dysfunction. I strongly believe PAWS from porn is a very real phenomenom and looks just like dopamine agonist withdrawal syndrome (DAWS). DAWS can be really severe and make you disabled.

    Check this image below.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  5. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    For what it's worth; I had my testosterone tested when I was in height of my porn and cocaine use, as I started getting anxiety, and it was 7 nmol/litre and they suggested HRT. This is what drove me to start looking at what i was doing.
     
  6. Strange, my testosteron was about 19 nmol/l 20,7 nmol/l during my reboot. Bloodtest result attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    I havent had it tested recently - this was about a year before NoFap. But I was partying from Fri-Monday with no sleep which can obviously fuck your test and cortisol
     
  8. Yeah that's a recipe for low T and high cortisol.

    I don't buy into the premise that extreme fapping to porn alone can cause low T.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  9. winningover

    winningover Fapstronaut

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    His symptoms stopped suddenly over a period of 10-15 days in the end. Otherwise his symptoms remained until the very end.
    I started losing my cravings and sexual fantasies after about 6-7 months. I had to work very hard on it consciously. I deleted instagram to begin with and unfollowed all random youtube channels. Also in real life, I don't ogle random girls anymore which also helped me drastically in this. When you're watching tv, movies, seasons, ensure that you don't watch any of the stuff containing hot random girls/scenes etc. I know some things are unavoidable in this age, but doing most of this helped me personally immensely. Taking a cold shower the moment your mind drifts in that direction is also one way to condition your mind.
     
    thetourist, Freeddom_Taker and clapas like this.
  10. Yeah this is what I believe I suffer from albeit a bit differently. I have smoked cigarettes on and off for over ten years and I think I was desensitized quite earlier on from nicotine, I remember the anxiety coming on at 16-17 I would smoke a pack a day (10 cigs back then) and would chain smoke oftenly because of the stress I was under, would more than often smoke up to 15 cigs a day when I was 19 and beyond, but bearing in mind have had long breaks from it in the past. Moderate to heavy caffeine habit on top (sugar free red bulls, coffee and diet coke come to mind) and PMOing three times a day at my worst, started PMOing at 12 all the way up to 24.

    Again my experience has been since I lve completely cut out caffeine and nicotine and on back on the wagon with not watching any porn is that I'm feeling benefits much quicker this time. I had one day a week or two back where if felt like hypomania. Head is getting clearer, feel more sociable etc.

    I wonder if my porn use was just masking and making the PAWS from nicotine or caffeine worse if they fire up the same circuits?
     
  11. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    Yeah, I have serious issues with coffee. I have a similar relationship with it as I do to PMO. It's nothing like as bad, but sometimes I crave it, even though one strong cup can ruin my day because it leaves me feeling groggy and a little bit ill. I used to drink 5-8 cups a day, as well as fap 3-4 times a day. Did that for a looong time....
     
    Espi1971 likes this.
  12. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Thanks that gives hope with my symptoms becuase at month 13 they still persist, sometimes the anxiety is like the first 90 days still. Knowing it can persist until the end helps not go crazy.

    I also am very diligent, but sometimes every few months, I get extreme sexual fantasies of all types of crazy shit that gives me huge hits of dopamine, and it takes 3-5 days to get it back under control. I am completely helpless during this time.
     
    clapas likes this.
  13. I personally never had any problems with nicotine and caffeine. I smoked a pack a day and could just quit cold turkey without any symptoms. Going caffeine free also gave me no withdrawal symptoms, not even a headache.

    See, everybody is different with a different chemical and genetic makeup. Some guys can watch hardcore porn everyday of their lifes and never get problems with addiction and addiction symptoms like brain fog, depression etc. and will get zero withdrawal symptoms when they quit.

    This is because they never valued porn as that special and have a different dopaminergic genetic makeup. Less sensitivity of the dopamine D1 receptor and normal sensitivity of the D2 receptor is probably the reason. Sensitive dopamine D1 sensitivity either by genetics or epigenetics cause the rise of DeltaFosB, which changes the brain into an addicted state because of changes in the dopaminergic genetic expression. This makes your brain think the thing you are doing that makes you feel so good (because of extra sensitive dopamine D1 receptors and desensitized dopamine D2 receptors) is neccesery for survival and makes the act even more rewarding and make you more motivated to continue with this rewarding behaviour by releasing more glutamate, dopamine and opioid peptides. This feeds the addiction and it's a negative feedback loop that is hard to break.

    There have been tests done and guys not addicted to porn had way less dopamine release in the reward center.

    Some people get prescribed opioids or benzo's and never develop an addiction to it either because they don't find the feeling good or valueable enough to continue with because they have perfect working dopamine, GABA and opioid receptors or have a good stable life without chronic stress, depression, anxiety and insomnia.

    And even benzo's can be addictive and they actually decrease serotonin and dopamine and other neurotransmitter levels, but the calming effect on an anxious mind, causes the brain to think it's neccecary for survival because it calms them down. The brain (VTA) then projects dopamine to the nucleus accumbens in anticipation even before you take the benzo's to motivate you to take them. This is what cravings are.

    Some people get addicted to the weirdest things that are not even dopaminergic (like eating clay pots), but their own brain makes the habit dopaminergic.

    All addictons activate the same mesocorticolimbic pathway. From VTA -> striatum -> frontal cortex. Just via different mechanisms and different paths, and stopping these addictions can cause withdrawal symtoms.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
    clapas likes this.
  14. I believe orgasms are the killer. I didn't have any problem in my early fapping days either(first 2 years). What really fuck me up is kindling, back to pmo after good streaks and fappin my johnson like it owed me money. Multiple time in the recovery i kept returning to porn to orgasm. Overtime the brain couldn't tolerate the abuse no more so it fell apart.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
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  15. Both long edging sessions and multiple orgams can fuck you up. Edging causes extreme dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens and that combined with multiple orgasms really take a toll on your whole reward pathway. Multiple orgams is just like taking a short acting opioid everyday.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
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  16. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    My guess is in your case it was the whole lot. Your body and mind was just jacked for a long time. I remember in my PMO days days (3 years ago) i was having a shitload of caffeine to help me with my fatigue. Multiple energy drinks a week to keep me going sometimes, though not all the time. Back then, caffeine actually had a huge effect on me, giving me more energy and focus etc. After recovery started, caffeine only occasionally helped with fatigue, more often than not all it did was increase anxiety and made me more tired. Its been brutal since i could no longer use caffeine to get me through my day. For the last few years i have basically just had 1 small cup of coffee in the morning, which seems to be okay for me now.
     
  17. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Thanks this post was helpful, and re-assuring, much appreciated. Was starting to really worry it was damaging progress.

    My experience with fantasies is _exactly_ how you describe. And agreed, hunker down seems the only method. God speed
     
    Don Quixote likes this.
  18. Help905

    Help905 Fapstronaut

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    I was just wondering how someone could know if they have PAWS?

    My symptoms are similar to you guys like Anhedonia, fatigue, social anxiety that I never had a couple years ago, low libido, hand tremors, hair loss, etc.

    A couple years ago I used to get the “superpowers” people talk about on nofap within a few days after relapse. Now I don’t.

    My longest streak was 20 days hardmode so obviously nothing close to most of you guys but I was an edging addict for like 3 or 4 years. Multiple hours a week. This is when my life went downhill.

    Since I never went above 20 days I don’t know if I have PAWS so I’d appreciate if you guys could help me.

    thabks
     
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  19. winningover

    winningover Fapstronaut

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    Hey @Ezpz , I just read this post of yours from almost 2 years back...July 2018 to be exact...

    Did you relapse after this? How strong was your relapse? I am just trying to find out because here you seem to be improving but since you are still going through PAWS, your relapse must be hard?

     
  20. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    yep i sure did relapse pretty hard. I fell into a relapse cycle for a few months i believe.

    every time i have relapsed my symptoms have changed, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

    unfortunately i have been dealing with these symptoms before i even found out about nofap. For years i was already in a flatline and was seeking help for my symptoms which seemed to be getting worse. Fortunately i found the cause for these symptoms are pmo induced, though a relapse sets me back to square 1. Now i make sure there are no slip ups to ensure healing continues as fast as possible
     
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