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Sex Addiction or Guilt & Shame Addiction?

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by TheInnerWilds, Aug 28, 2020.

  1. TheInnerWilds

    TheInnerWilds Fapstronaut

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    Last night, immediately following the completion of 90 days hard-mode, I was scrolling through images on Pinterest while on the phone with a friend. Images of sexy women showing off their tattoos popped up on my feed. They were innocent enough but eventually led to a black-and-white photo of a nude woman with nipples and ass visible.
    Yes, I clicked on the image.
    It was on my screen for maybe 10 seconds. I did not touch myself. Didn't get an erection. Simply took in the view for a moment, then moved on.
    And yet...
    The guilt and shame coursing through me as I woke up in response to having viewed this image this morning was overwhelming.
    But I'm not one to let my emotions be my guiding compass for truth. Peace, love, and happiness are my true North- anything less than this is the by-product of social conditioning, and I stand behind this belief fully. My reason for engaging with the 90-day hard-mode challenge was not to overcome a PMO addiction but to overcome guilt and shame associated with my sexuality. And even though I achieved the fabled 90 days purported by NoFap "studies" to be the magic number for healing, the guilt and shame I felt in response to having briefly viewed a beautiful, naked woman was as though I hadn't accomplished anything at all.
    So I started questioning my beliefs about sexuality, porn, and NoFap, something I recommend everyone here try at some point. It will transform you more than any self-denial practice possibly can. Byron Katie's videos on YouTube- - are a good place to start. But I digress.
    There's no question in my mind that my life has improved as a result of having practiced PMO-abstinence for the last 90 days. But why? Is it because of semen retention? I have scoured the internet for peer-reviewed research on the benefits of semen retention and have found absolutely nothing to substantiate NoFappers claims about this practice. What if this was less about sexual abstinence, and more about the fact that, for the last 90 days, I haven't engaged in behavior I've judged to be shameful? Was it the porn and masturbation causing me to feel depressed and anxious, or was it the belief that those behaviors are wrong, instilled into me from a young age by the anti-eroticism/anti-body messages of religion?
    As I'm sure you could've guessed by the tone of my writing, I'm leaning towards believing it was the latter, and almost certainly not the former.

    I've made no secret of my attitude towards religion in my posts here on NoFap; I believe it is far more harmful to humanity than beneficial. Independent of my beliefs, there is no denying that religion is far from free of corruption and toxicity. As a former Southern Baptist seeking a community of people all committed to de-converting from their religious programming, I discovered an online support group called Recovering From Religion recently. For those interested, their website is recoveringfromreligion.org. Their founder, Dr. Darrel Ray, is a major opponent of the myth of sex addiction. You can find his talk on the subject here: .
    I found his discussion fascinating. There is absolutely- I repeat, ABSOLUTELY- NO peer-reviewed research validating the existence of sex addiction as an actual diagnosable condition. It is not a part of the DSM-5 whatsoever, and for good reason, which Dr. Ray covers extensively in his lecture.
    What has been discovered, however, is that the more religious a person is, the more likely they are to identify as a sex addict. Intriguing, right? Guess which state in America has the highest number of self-identified sex addicts? Utah. Guess which one is number 2? Mississippi. Is it a coincidence that these are two of the most religious states in the country? Of course not.
    Religion's denigration of sexuality to sinful behavior is a brilliant marketing scheme; convince people that their sexuality, one of the most powerful and unavoidable forces in the human psyche, is a sin against God, and can only be absolved by greater participation in- and financial investment in- the very religion teaching sex to be a sin in the first place. It's an endless feedback loop preying on guilt and shame to keep people locked into a system that turns their very humanity against them. Diabolical and absolutely genius.
    Guilt and shame are powerful. And they are truly addictive, as evidenced by the works of Dr. Joe Dispenza- . It's not the act of masturbation or watching pornography that keeps a person locked in a cycle of craving and shame, craving and shame; it's the fact that it's taboo. That's the source of the addictive cycle. Free yourself from the guilt and shame of religious indoctrination, and you'll find it much easier to free yourself of compulsive sexual behavior, and you can do so without indefinitely denying yourself of the joy of sexual pleasure. As Dr. Darrel Ray says, "The sex addiction field is really a form of religious indoctrination and shaming..." Why follow a system of belief designed only to benefit a small group of people who profit off your guilt and shame when you could invest your energies into inner peace and freedom instead, without sacrificing your sexuality in the process? Make choices that honor your humanity instead of vilifying it. You ARE NOT a sex addict. You've been brainwashed by religion into an addiction to guilt and shame by means of your sexuality.
    If you need the practice and community of NoFap to help prevent you from indulging in problematic sexual behavior as you undo the religious indoctrination to cut the guilt and shame off at its source, then you have my full support. I did find the 90 days to be helpful, even if my conclusion at the end of these 90 days was the exact opposite of what NoFap teaches. I do, however, firmly believe it was the absence of guilt and shame- caused by religious indoctrination, not the inherent "wrongness" of porn and masturbation- and not semen retention, that provided the real benefit over the last 3 months. Be diligent in asking yourself, what am I really addicted to, and why? Don't just settle for what you've been told. Really do the research for yourself so that you're not needlessly practicing self-denial but becoming all that you can be, sexually and beyond.

    In addition to the other resources I've suggested, take a look at this article by Marty Klein, again affirming that sex addiction DOES NOT EXIST- https://thehumanist.com/magazine/july-august-2012/features/youre-addicted-to-what. As he so poignantly states towards the beginning of the article, "So here’s my evaluation of almost everyone who is diagnosed as a sex addict—by themselves, their loved ones, or an addictionologist: it’s someone who is unhappy with the consequences of their sexual choices, but who finds it too emotionally painful to make different choices. You know, the way some of us are with cookies, new sweaters, or watching the Kardashians on TV.

    Which is to say, it’s not about the sex. It’s about immature decision-making
    ."

    You're not broken, you don't have a disease, and you are most certainly not a sinner. You're a beautiful human being capable of greatness on a healing journey. I know this essay of mine will trigger many, some will dismiss it entirely, and perhaps it will enrage a few, but I'm certain at least a handful of you NoFappers out there are questioning if you're really a sex addict or not and if masturbation and porn are really as bad as this website suggests. They are not; anti-sex religious messaging is the real culprit behind your compulsive behavior. I truly hope my writing and the other resources I've provided here can help you make your own improved decision-making regarding your sexual behavior independent of any mainstream narrative you've been handed or diagnosis someone else gave you. You are worthy of a life full of meaning and sexual fulfillment. It is my sincerest hope that you are able to discover the truth of these words for yourself along your journey. Be well ✌

    Additional resources:

    The 3-Minute Game- a way to build intimacy between you and your partner:

    David Deida, sexual yoga teacher:

    Mantak Chia, author of The Multi-Orgasmic Man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRcF2MvwbSo

    And finally, I highly recommend Dr. Darrel Ray's podcast, Secular Sexuality

    Happy Healing!
     
    t8031t and ShogunGeneral like this.
  2. ShogunGeneral

    ShogunGeneral Fapstronaut

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    Thanks for posting. I have to say I agree with a lot of these points. I have commented a lot on this board about the fetishization of people's daily counters. It seems to be especially an issue where someone will go 60 days PMO free have a relapse and need to ask 'do I need to reset my counter' etc. To me the most beneficial thing trying to get or even just cut down on your porn consumption does it build your ability to have agency over your actions. It gives you a choice. At one point I was so compulsively looking at P I was doing in the bathroom of my job and on my work computer even though I knew this as wrong and could have gotten me fired. By doing NoFap I learned that I didnt have to act on every urge and I learned techniques to help me over come those urges that ability to do so stays with you regardless of if you have a bunch of 30 day streaks or one long 180 streak. The being addicted to a counter and insane guilt ove relapse is just another branch of addiction IMO
     
    HyacinthHellwaters likes this.
  3. TheInnerWilds

    TheInnerWilds Fapstronaut

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    I'm glad you got something of value out of this. Of course, I don't deny the existence of problematic sexual behavior or the value of community such as this one to help change those behaviors. But I do want to put the explanations for sex & porn addiction under serious scrutiny, and I appreciate your willingness to consider my objections to mainstream conclusions. I don't believe you're a weak-willed or psychologically broken person for struggling with compulsive sexual behavior; I believe you (and I) have been indoctrinated by an anti-erotic culture that causes all kinds of unhealthy expressions of an energy that is an inherent part of being human. We deserve better than all the external shame heaped on us by others who've come to regard guilt and shame as a virtue.

    As for the day-counter, I'm totally with you. Just the effort alone of trying to make healthier decisions around sex and porn should count for something. Most people wouldn't even bother. It takes a real warrior spirit to try to make changes at such a fundamental level of behavior.
     
  4. Candun

    Candun Fapstronaut

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    I strongly disagree with the idea that Porn/Sex addiction are not real and just products of religion. There are many, many atheist or agnostic people like myself who struggle with it.

    I believe "Indoctrination" is far more prevalent in the other direction in western society, considering the mainstream belief towards pornography is that it's completely fine, and that it's heavily integrated with pop culture.

    I was exposed to hard-core pornography before I even knew what religion was, and it has been infinitely more harmful to me than any perceived shame or guilt from religious doctrine.
     
  5. TheInnerWilds

    TheInnerWilds Fapstronaut

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    It's fine if you disagree, this is a place for open discussion.

    I would posit that no one, even those who identify as atheist or agnostic, has managed to escape unscathed from religious indoctrination. It's embedded in western thought to the point of being nearly imperceptible, like a fish in water. Without some serious inner work, most people's default orientation towards sex, pleasure, and their body is shame. And it's this shame that's made possible the influence porn has on our society today- because sexuality has been made taboo, it's made obsessive-compulsive/neurotic behavior around sex and porn much more prevalent. This is more cultural than it is individual. Were it not for the overt puritanical values of our society, hardcore pornography wouldn't have nearly the power that it does. Studies have shown (see Dr. Darrel Ray's lecture in original post) that, as people de-condition themselves from religious indoctrination, so too does their problematic sexual behavior decrease. Correlation does not equal causation, but the relationship between the two is worth considering.

    In short, hardcore pornography is the yang to religious indoctrination's yin.

    And of course, my whole intent here is to provide a different perspective to the mainstream conversation regarding sex addiction. I'm hoping to point people in the direction of alleviation of guilt and shame. Again, if this doesn't resonate with you, I respect your right to disagree.
     
    Marshall 5 and Candun like this.
  6. Exit To Freedom

    Exit To Freedom Fapstronaut

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    It's nice to hear a different perspective and on an intellectual knowing level, I agree with how the taboo nature of the sexual and the curious side of ourselves has had an institution of shame put upon us that we integrate almost automatically. On an emotional level I suffer from this shame and self punishment, and since thoughts create emotions I notice my thought patterns after I have acted out are self shaming, berating, and part of a pattern, the cycle.

    I'm sure if I was ok with what I did, it would be different but this is how I grew up. I acted out to escape emotional pain created by my family situation. I don't have the desire to look at more explicit sexual acts, I just enjoy the female naked body - that's enough for me, and seems like a part of my adolescence that I missed somehow, making up - I don't know.

    In my life, even my wife, who is from Germany implores me to enjoy myself and don't worry. Who am I to argue? The truth is I only argue with myself. I'm artistic and I love beauty - if only I could change the way I see it and think it. Many here will think it as an excuse to act out an addiction. I don't need it every day, or multiple times a day - that doesn't make me better, I have the same problem. But the things you brought out resonated with what the different sides of me have to say.

    Seems the shaming side must have come from a parental influence. I will not deny however that there are many whose problems are quite severe and destructive. I have thought of myself this way, but I know that I'm so hard on myself with what I do and the other side says you have kept it at a certain level, never go beyond and are expressing sexuality in your own way. I won't say it's the best way, but certainly it's not a cataclysm.

    When visiting Germany before I brought my wife over here and we got married, I was surprised to learn that almost any town of a modest size on up has legal prostitution, and married men go there a lot. Not saying it's right, it's a culture thing there but it's different. I don't say anything of what I say is right, just my own struggle and perspective. Anyway, it's a unique look at what some are dealing with, maybe all in different ways on a bigger scale.
     
    HyacinthHellwaters likes this.
  7. Candun

    Candun Fapstronaut

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    I would agree that some of the extreme religious practices and views from previous generations still influence our culture today at least to some extent. Virtually every single aspect of our society has been affected by previous generations.

    Similar to what you said about Yin and Yang, I see today's popular view on sexuality to be just as negative as those extreme religious views, just on the other end of the spectrum. I also believe it has gotten to the point where people are shamed for choosing to follow practices like abstinence until marriage, and told that they are "brainwashed" by religion and therefore the only "real" view that anyone can hold is theirs. (I don't think you meant this, like you said your intent is to provide a different perspective).

    At the end of the day there isn't an absolute answer. For me personally, trying to follow the path of having zero guilt or shame in what I do just isn't possible, it contradicts who I am. I only find pride and humility when I strive to overcome those things.
    However I'm sure for some people their shame comes from a source outside of themselves, and they need to find out what they truly want and not a group of others.
     
    HyacinthHellwaters likes this.
  8. To me, guilt and shame don't play a role though it's certainly possible that it does for others. I'm not religious so the guilt-ridden dogma is irrelevant to me. P objectifies people so it can be condemned on moral grounds. Abstinence from M has little to do with shame; for me, it has to do with the fact that ejaculation causes hangovers that are often worse than those from alcohol: fatigue, lethargy, loss of motivation, headaches, and unable to enjoy activities like work or hobbies. These physical symptoms typically last me about several days and they occur because of the powerful biochemical reactions after ejaculation. Maybe some don't experience these side-effects, but many Fapstronauts do.

    Abstinence from MO is about feeling better, not about avoiding shame. I don't do it for the so called "superpowers"; I do it because to me feeling like sh*t for 3-4 days isn't worth the mere 5-10 seconds of pleasure. The experience is exactly like drugs and alcohol: MO can be ecstatic, but one pays the price for it later--there is no free lunch.
     
  9. TheInnerWilds

    TheInnerWilds Fapstronaut

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    I appreciate your honest and candid response. As I've stated above, I believe shame and guilt are indoctrinated into us from the beginning, possibly before even birth. This is purely speculative on my part, but as sentient creatures, I think there's an unconscious bias against the body because it reminds us that, in spite of our heightened self-awareness, intelligence, and other higher functioning cognitive abilities, we're still just animals.

    And, again, purely speculative, I think the shame around sex ultimately stems from our fear of death- best not to embrace the pleasures of the body because it's merely temporary.
    Freud went on a nature-walk with some friends once and found it dismaying to witness how his friends wouldn't stop talking for even a moment to take in all the beauty of the natural world. He reasoned this was because loving and appreciating the impermanent can be very painful for most people, and so they would rather indulge in being distracted than acknowledge the beautiful but impermanent life before them.
    Religion drives this point home by treating life as a test to determine our ultimate destination in eternity- life is not about the here and now but about the hereafter. It makes avoidance of the impermanent present moment a divine creed from god. Sex (in my opinion) is one of the greatest joys of life. Best to relegate it to one of the more egregious forms of sin lest people begin to question the church's authority on the nature and meaning of life.

    At this point, I'm just thinking "out loud" here. I'm always seeking to understand myself and the world around me better. These are just my current theories and are always subject to change. The points I've made here that I'm willing to stand by are:
    1) Guilt and shame are inevitable without serious inner work.
    2) Guilt and shame lead to neurotic behavior, such as compulsive sexual behavior.
    3) Religion capitalizes on humanity's predilection toward guilt and shame with the doctrine of sin to explain guilt and shame as natural consequences for living outside of the will of the church (which is conflated with the will of god). This circular logic is very profitable and employed with great success all over the world in just about every culture on the planet. It's all the more diabolical and lucrative to make inevitable and natural impulses like sexuality a sin that can only be remedied with even greater participation in the religion that made the urge a sin in the first place. It's a feedback loop that actually benefits more from your failure than your success in adhering to their doctrine.

    So, there's my current musings on the subject. Curious to hear what you or anyone else has to say about it. I think I could flesh out (pun intended) and articulate the relationship I see between fear of death and shame around sex more coherently but it's a new idea I'm working on, so this will do for now.
    Hope your journey is going well and that you're meeting your goals, or at least finding yourself more at home with yourself today than yesterday. Peace! ✌
     
    Fishn1 likes this.
  10. TheInnerWilds

    TheInnerWilds Fapstronaut

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    Yes, I do believe there are some distorted and exploited views and practices around sexuality that are the inverse of the anti-eroticism puritanical views that are both represented by our culture. They are both the cause and effect of another.
    I'm don't agree that abstinence until marriage is an innate view- I think the belief in that as a virtue must be imposed from the outside as a mechanism for controlling people's behavior- but, that really is a purely subjective perspective and think you could probably come up with valid arguments against my viewpoint if you cared to. I hold my perspective around that loosely- it's not a hill I care to die on.
    To your final point here, agreed; there is no absolute answer. I think all answers ought to be subject to constant scrutiny, especially where religion, addiction, and sexuality are concerned. It's questioning, hypothesis, and discourse that moves the conversation forward. And I for one feel heavily invested in being one who helps move this conversation forward. Human spirituality and sexuality are topics of great passion for me. Thanks for joining the discussion with me.
     
  11. TheInnerWilds

    TheInnerWilds Fapstronaut

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    There really may be chemical and energetic benefits to semen retention but in spite of all the searching I've done for research on the topic, I haven't been able to find any. Based on personal experience, I'd say yes, there is, but again, I just can't find any data to prove or disprove it.

    I also haven't found any studies explaining the tendency towards depression, guilt, and shame as a direct result of ejaculation some men experience either. The research I've done shows that those symptoms are a result of social conditioning, not a biological reaction to sex and masturbation.

    I'm not saying these studies don't exist, I'm saying I haven't found them. If you have any you'd like to share, I would love to read them.

    All that being said, are you saying there's absolutely no guilt and shame associated with your sexuality? I'm skeptical because guilt and shame almost always play a role in addiction/compulsive behavior. Then again, maybe you don't consider yourself to be addicted to porn or masturbation? Curious to hear your thoughts.

    PS- I did just find this article giving a possible explanation for why men feel tired after sex. Food for thought.
    https://www.besthealthmag.ca/best-you/relationships/why-men-fall-asleep-after-sex/
     
  12. Love2LongBoard

    Love2LongBoard Fapstronaut

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    I have been free of pornography and masturbation for over 5 years. I will tell you, for me, that the issue wasn't and isn't shame.

    Pornography objectifies another person. It feeds the sex trafficking industry. It abuses our sisters, daughters, mothers, and neighbors. Men rape women, film it, and upload it to sites where others watch it for pleasure. Women get tricked, seduced, and forced into mainstream pornography every day. Boys waste their lives chasing a fantasy. Husbands disconnect from and destroy their relationships with their spouses. Men learn that they can overpower a woman, and that it is okay to do it. Pornography is a horrible horrible thing.

    It's not horrible because religion says it horrible. It's not horrible because it's sexuality is horrible. It's horrible because men (mostly) use it to degrade and objectify women. It feeds a pattern of thinking and behaving that destroys how we interact with the world and specifically how we treat women.

    My relationship with God, yes I am very religious, has taught me that sex with the right person at the right time is the greatest form of intimacy. It's wonderful thing, when expressed appropriately. Much like anything it has it's time and place.

    If we do or have engaged in adding to the demand of pornography should we feel shame? We should feel shame. Then we should move on. We should start changing and making better choices.

    There is something to be said for the large group of men who have a desire to change but find that making that change is extremely difficult. Is it addiction? I don't know. Is it compulsive? Not sure. I am not educated enough to make that call.

    It is far more about how we think than it is about anything else. Not shame thinking though.

    What thoughts are we having or do we have that make us feel like we can watch a women get forced into having sex and be okay with it and derive pleasure from it. You may be thinking, I don't watch that. The truth is you have no idea if what you watch is complicit or not, there is no way to know. You may think its a set with a guy and a women. It may just be a spy camera though.

    There is no way to know. So once we except that we have to ask ourselves, why I am okay with it? What is in my thinking, in my belief system, that makes me feel okay with this? Once you can really identify what it is then you can start to heal.
     
    Candun likes this.
  13. I appreciate what you're saying, but I don't always believe in the studies that are done especially many of the controversial topics that Fapstronauts care about. For better or for worse, I need to experiment on myself and see how I feel. It's true I may end up deceiving myself about my feelings, but I need to be able to trust myself at some level to make any progress. I'll direct you to all the studies which Noah Church has quoted and commented on in this very interesting video:


    There are certain well-known biological facts like the release of prolactin which saps a man of his energy and makes him tired. This causes one's dopamine to drop so the motivation to put forth any effort into goals and other actions is greatly reduced. This condition could last for days on end in some people. There is also a condition known as post-orgasmic illness syndrome. You can read about it and track down the quoted studies and papers here: https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/10809/postorgasmic-illness-syndrome

    I don't believe I am addicted to P. In fact, modern day psychologists don't even believe addiction to P exists. The pre-frontal cortex is quite aware that it is dealing with images and not reality. MO, on the other hand, changes the body's internal biochemistry and these changes are similar to those experienced in intercourse so the brain is more likely to believe it is engaging in the real thing. This makes M addiction possible, if sex addiction is also possible. So for me the problem really comes down to MO, not P. Once I controlled MO, my desire to watch P just dropped on its own without any effort. But this also means that sex with a real person would also affect me in a similar manner to MO. For this reason, non-ejaculatory sex is probably a good idea in the future to avoid possible relapse and any negative side-effects.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2020
  14. Candun

    Candun Fapstronaut

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    The same psychologists who say P addiction does not exist see MO and sex addiction the exact same way. Not all psychologists believe this though, there are many scientists and psychologists who believe PMO/Sex can be an addiction.
     
    Overcome Fear likes this.
  15. This is true, which is why I often rely more on my own experience than on what the "experts" are telling me. Hopefully, the science will be worked out one day, but society doesn't seem to take our plight seriously enough that it will happen anytime soon.
     

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