1. Welcome to NoFap! We have disabled new forum accounts from being registered for the time being. In the meantime, you can join our weekly accountability groups.
    Dismiss Notice

P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

Tags:
  1. @DerJogge I loved your story. Good on you man, you're doing fucking awesome. Too bad this shut takes so long, but seems like you're close. Thanks for your post.
     
    DerJogge likes this.
  2. Queek The HeadTakker

    Queek The HeadTakker Fapstronaut

    407
    687
    93
    Weird , but by still battling this addiction even with that sintoms and feeling improvements even makes you more a warrior!!! Ongratulations
     
    Freeddom_Taker likes this.
  3. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Congrats my friend on your success.

    I am right behind you ;)
     
  4. winningover

    winningover Fapstronaut

    255
    819
    93
    Oh man! How much do I love this sentence of yours. I was seriously waiting for something like this throughout your post and ALMOST got disappointed and hola! You saved the best for the end. I am back on this forum after a long time and first thing I did is check this thread out. I am a step behind you in recovery in my opinion and therefore I read your post with great interest.

    Anyways, coming back to your sentence. I feel the psychological shock of all this is quite serious even if you have recovered. And yes, I do feel recovered to an extent. BUT, I keep second guessing myself everytime, everywhere because of what I have been through for a long time. Its like I have to develop and mature my brain all over again. I just feel that if somehow right now, my memory of all those withdrawals are taken away, I will almost be back to normal. I have entered that stage where now I need to start forgetting what I have been through and start treating myself as normal and recovered. (easier said than done)

    Obviously, memory is a blessing as well because that is eventually whats going to stop me going back to porn (hopefully). So I am hoping that as time goes by, I am able to successfully retain only the parts which are useful to me and not indulge too much in what I have been through. I will also write a more detailed post on how past 3-4 months of hardmode helped me recover quickly.
     
  5. Dude you're the best. You've provided me so much inspiration. You're able to put, into words, what this battle is like. You've just legitimized my mood today and helped me feel okay about who I am and what I'm doing. David Foster Wallace said fiction is about not feeling so alone--well you're doing that without even having to wrap your truth in a sweater of lies. God bless you man.


    In regards to my recovery, I've gone 11 months (No P or M) as of today, and the symptoms are still as bad as ever. Today, my fight or flight system is a disaster. Threats are, seemingly, behind every corner. I need to remember that my mind is concocting the pain, and that my life's circumstances are temporary--that they aren't the reason why I feel so anxious today.
     
  6. Big Lebowski

    Big Lebowski Fapstronaut

    35
    61
    18
    How are these mushrooms working for you dude? Any luck?
     
  7. Mushrooms don't do shit IMHO.

    @AspiringVitality How's that bullshit snake oil celery juice working for you? Lmfao
     
  8. That's very encouraging to hear.

    I have a question for you: you mentioned a while back that as the months accumulated you noticed that you started to suffer from greater anxiety, and some small micro-doses of depression. You then stated that because you were coming out of the PAWs, you were now experiencing the normal issues your genes have provided you with.

    Do you still think that is the case? Or were those depressions just a different mask worn by the same beast? I ask this because though I'm almost a year in, my depression seems to be getting more worrisome, and I don't know if it's because of my "factory settings", or if the PAWs is just doing PAWs-like things. Can withdrawals hide mental illness? You'd think that the active use of an addiction would be what cloaked symptoms, but it seems to me that a past version of yourself believes that even the PAWs itself can leave mental illness unnoticed.

    Thanks for reaching out to this community once again.
     
  9. Thanks for responding man. I'm sure you remember being in my shoes--all of those unanswered questions swirling around in your brain. I know none of them can get fully answered until I get to other side of this thing, but it's nice to get a little comfort along the way.
     
    Brain Fog and AspiringVitality like this.
  10. tigate

    tigate Fapstronaut

    69
    51
    18
    I hope someone could talk about their withdrawal experience after relapse and every time they start a streak.
     
  11. Did you get P.A.W.S. after reboot from PMO.
    For how long? How severe?
     
  12. clapas

    clapas Fapstronaut

    512
    528
    93
    I've been thinking a lot about this. Your mention of trauma is very on point: we need to think about our issues in terms of PAWS+Trauma.

    In my case, most trauma comes from PAWS themselves! It's like a feedback loop. (I can see other trauma sources tho.) I am fearful of PAWS like bad sleep, ectopic beats, anxiety, digestive problems, nausea, you name it @Younameit . We all would agree that PAWS are among the worst things we have ever experienced, and their memories haunt us.

    E.g. I am now in a bad cycle that lasts 3 weeks already, with all the aforesaid PAWS. Well, last night, when I went to bed, I was feeling anxious, uneasy and fearful because of the symptoms of the day and the episodes from previous nights: I was afraid they would happen again. But, unexpectedlly, I fell asleep quickly and the night has been better than anticipated. Hence, the feelings from last night were trauma, not PAWS! But I could not tell in advance! They feel so similar! Other nights it's just the opposite: I feel quite normal when I go to bed and then, suddenly, bang! PAWS take over from the unconscious for a horrible night!

    Although I reckon trauma only constitutes a small part of my issues, I started trying the TRE exercises that you suggested. I hope they help. Thanks for sharing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2020
  13. When you quit almost two years ago, was it a horrible relapse never seen before and you thought this was it or was it just another relapse and you took it day by day and see how things will improve? It'd be interesting to hear the mindset of people before the whole healing progress started. Was there something special that put you into that state of mind to be born as a new person?
     
  14. DerJogge

    DerJogge Fapstronaut

    156
    466
    63
    I‘m 1 year into hardmode and don’t see me relapsing at all because I beat several other addictions longer ago and have my addicted mind pretty much under control. I just can talk for myself but the breakingpoint for me with PMO and sex was pretty simple:

    I had a longer time of trying to keep myself away from any form of orgasm (3-6 months) and didn’t felt quite right yet and thought maybe I just go back to having constant sex with with my girlfriend as I’m making no progress. I did have sex a couple of times but I just felt so horrible. If you don’t have an orgasm for several months you slowly start to heal and then all of a sudden sexual arrousal hits you like a bomb. For the first time I understood the clear effect of what my behaviour is causing to my brain and body. I fully understood that the old way isn‘t working. I was just so freaking fed up with falling into the same dark place again and I could no longer take it and make the same mistakes over and over again.

    In short: I just was fed up with following a path that leads to nowhere and I wanted to see my true and full potential without constantly being impaired by symptoms that hinder me in living a fulfilled live. That’s my mindset and I will go the recovery path as long as it takes as I know that no joint, drink, video game, porn or anything else offers true happiness. It’s just a substitution for something that has to be worked for and can’t be reached by clicking a button, rolling a paper or putting your wiener inside some woman. True freedom lies beyond that and that’s what keeps me going.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
    ArduousPath likes this.
  15. tigate

    tigate Fapstronaut

    69
    51
    18
    Anyone here, dreaming frequently like most of the nights since doing nofap?
     
  16. Hello Gary,

    You might be wrong about the whole D2 receptor down regulation since a new study (that is yet to come out, debunks this..

    In 2017 I participated in a porn addiction study at University Medical Center Groningen in The Netherlands to investigate if porn addiction downregulates D2 receptors in the nucleus accumbens by using radioactive raclopride (selective dopamine D2 antagonist) in a PET scan and an fMRI scan to scan the reward pathway VTA – NAcc – PFC.

    Quoted from Dutch wikipedia:


    "One of the hypothesized mechanisms that may underlie the development or maintenance of addictive behavior is a disturbed processing of dopaminergic signals. Dopamine is a substance that sends signals in the brain. In addicts, receiving dopamine does not go well. This so-called reduced dopamine 2 (D2) receptor availability has often been demonstrated in various addictions, including substance abuse (cocaine), gambling addiction [8] and obesity [9]. Currently [(since) when?], Imaging studies are being conducted at the University Medical Center Groningen (UMCG) to determine whether this mechanism also exists in porn addiction. [10]



    Guess what, today I called the with the doctor to ask him the results, because I was losing patience, and wanted to know the results, which is: there was no D2 receptor down-regulation in any of the addicted participants, including me. They all had issues with low motivation, anhedonia, social anxiety, fear, insomnia, anxiety and severe PAWS, otherwise known as prolonged withdrawal. (including me). My brain showed normal D2 binding and normal blood flow to the prefrontal cortex. No sign of hypofrontility. The MRI also showed no sign of abnormalities in the nucleus accumbens of all participants.

    The study is about to be published on pubmed, but it can take some time.

    About myself: I have relapsed multiple times and no real bad withdrawal symptoms have come back. I still believe PAWS (withdrawal) from this addiction is real and it's a dopaminergic problem, but D2 receptors are not involved according to this study. My brain showed normal D2 density just as the controls. Maybe there are other systems involved. I hypothesize opioid and dopamine anomalies in the VTA (ventral tegmental area), but not with D2 receptors in the NAcc (nucleus accumbens) I also think there are other dopaminergic subtype receptors that could be involved (maybe D1 and D3?) has something to do with our problems. Just a hypothesize.



    I was kind of disappointed and also a bit sceptical, because I was hoping to see some changes in my brain. To prove that this porn addiction really is a thing and can be measured with scans. It's strange that people with other behavior addictions like gambling, do show this blunted D2 binding… This study can be used as fuel by the porn addiction naysayers (like David Ley). So I hope this study gets peer reviewed and more faculties perform more and advanced studies on the matter.

    I think it's a bit strange that people with proven D2 low receptor density, like behavior addictions like eating and gambling addiction do show D2 decreased binding. While most porn addicts face a whole lot more of mental, physiological, mental and psychological problems than gambling and eating addicts. Never heard about a gambling addiction that developed severe withdrawal (PAWS)

    I know many cocaine and other drug addicts (with low D2 receptor expression) That have zero problems getting their dicks up. So maybe for us porn addicts it works a little different. A lot of research needs to be done on this subject. That is for sure.

    What is your say on this? Was this a flawed study to begin with?

    I hope you read this and respond to me!

    Gary Wilsons reply:

    "Hi,

    That is very surprising. I can't say why they didn't find lower D2's. As you said, it may involve D1's or opioid receptors, or the sensitivity of receptors, rather than density of the receptors. Or it could be dynorphin levels, etc.

    Other studies on addictions have been mixed when it comes to D2 receptors - such as gambling and obesity (even drug addictions). Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I sent your email to one of the top neuroscientists in the world (who has done many studies on behavioral addictions), and he said the following (I was waiting on his answer before emailing you back):
    I am not surprised – findings in gambling disorder (and obesity) and multiple SUDs are not clearly linked to D2/D3 receptor availability. Can read:



    Potenza MN (2018) Searching for replicable dopamine-related findings in gambling disorder. Biol Psychiatry 83:984-986.


    Nutt, D. J., Lingford-Hughes, A., Erritzoe, D., & Stokes, P. R. A. (2015). The dopamine theory of addiction: 40 years of highs and lows. Nature Reviews Neuroscience, 16, 305. doi:10.1038/nrn3939



    Potenza MN (2013) How Central is Dopamine to Pathological Gambling or Gambling Disorder? Frontiers in Behavioral Neuroscience 7:206. (PMC3870289)

    So, I really have no comment as of yet. However, every other neurological study on porn users or sex addicts has reported brain changes consistent with the addiction model. This page lists 53 neuroscience-based studies (MRI, fMRI, EEG, neuropsychological, hormonal). Eight of the 53 studies point towards desensitization or habituation in porn users/sex addicts: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.


    I just noticed that you posted on reboot nation the following:

    Gary Wilson might be wrong about the whole D2 receptor downregulation/desensitization as well. So he could also be wrong about the "permanent" damage.
    I wonder where you got the idea that I said porn addiction causes "permanent damage". I have never said that. In fact, YBOP has an FAQ where I say that I believe it doesn't cause permanent damage - Does porn addiction cause irreversible damage to the brain? Everything about YBOP is based on the fact that brains can heal.
    Best,
    gary"

    And

    "Hi Peter,

    Another neuroscientist (PhD) had a few thoughts. He has a special interest in the effects of the internet on the user.
    I would be very interesting in Reading this study that does not find alteration in d2 receptors. However, there are many caveats.


    1. Maybe the isotope (radioligand) used in PET was not optimal. Or for some reason they lacked enough contrast (a too frequent problem in this type of studies), insufficient number of participants to produce reliable stats, etc.
    2. D2 is just a type of DA receptor. Just looking at one does not disprove anything.
    3. I would also use voxel based morphometry in different parts of the brain. These analyses are very time consuming and people predefined regions of interest. Maybe you disprove alterations in NAc, anyway, you would need to repeat with VTA (probably showing decreased size as heroin addicts). And you may define your 3 ROIs and still… have not considered another critical region you forgot to consider relevant. Say, the insula, or the ACC, etc.
    4. Internet addicts do show alterations in D2 receptors so I would put in question a study on porn denying it, because porn is a subtype of internet addiction. This reasoning is not 100% effective, of course, because exceptions may occur, but I would say is 80% effective.
    5. What about connectivity? You may have a normal density of dopamine receptors, normal given ROI size, and still, show altered resting state functional connectivity (for instance). Many many things have to be assessed.
    6. It is not only a matter of dopamine sensitivity, also of dopamine segregation. You cannot conclude out of normal sensitivity to dopamine, dopamine signaling is right, as dopamine Flow from the VTA may be reduced (which would be hard to show, but still a possibility). This is similar to diabetes type 1 and 2, but for dopamine signaling, you may be impaired by low density of insulin receptors, or sensitivity, or, your receptors are just fine but the pancreas releases too Little insulin. Same here.
    7. The dynorphin point is a good one. I would agree with that part.

    More to think about.
    Best,
    Gary"
     
  17. DGZ

    DGZ Fapstronaut

    180
    263
    63
    How stable is your mood now? I can't take these ups and downs sometimes...

    I feel so lost, I don't know when I will get only good days. I can't talk to people I know well, I become a stuttering, nervous, quiet wreck on my bad days.
     
  18. Hisself

    Hisself Fapstronaut

    411
    311
    63
    I relate to this last part so much
     
  19. "Hi Peter,

    Another neuroscientist (PhD) had a few thoughts. He has a special interest in the effects of the internet on the user.
    I would be very interesting in Reading this study that does not find alteration in d2 receptors. However, there are many caveats.


    1. Maybe the isotope (radioligand) used in PET was not optimal. Or for some reason they lacked enough contrast (a too frequent problem in this type of studies), insufficient number of participants to produce reliable stats, etc.
    2. D2 is just a type of DA receptor. Just looking at one does not disprove anything.
    3. I would also use voxel based morphometry in different parts of the brain. These analyses are very time consuming and people predefined regions of interest. Maybe you disprove alterations in NAc, anyway, you would need to repeat with VTA (probably showing decreased size as heroin addicts). And you may define your 3 ROIs and still… have not considered another critical region you forgot to consider relevant. Say, the insula, or the ACC, etc.
    4. Internet addicts do show alterations in D2 receptors so I would put in question a study on porn denying it, because porn is a subtype of internet addiction. This reasoning is not 100% effective, of course, because exceptions may occur, but I would say is 80% effective.
    5. What about connectivity? You may have a normal density of dopamine receptors, normal given ROI size, and still, show altered resting state functional connectivity (for instance). Many many things have to be assessed.
    6. It is not only a matter of dopamine sensitivity, also of dopamine segregation. You cannot conclude out of normal sensitivity to dopamine, dopamine signaling is right, as dopamine Flow from the VTA may be reduced (which would be hard to show, but still a possibility). This is similar to diabetes type 1 and 2, but for dopamine signaling, you may be impaired by low density of insulin receptors, or sensitivity, or, your receptors are just fine but the pancreas releases too Little insulin. Same here.
    7. The dynorphin point is a good one. I would agree with that part.

    More to think about.
    Best,
    Gary"
     
    tigate likes this.
  20. tigate

    tigate Fapstronaut

    69
    51
    18
    Posting something on behalf of @Sleepislost2 below:

    "Hi Peter,

    Another neuroscientist (PhD) had a few thoughts. He has a special interest in the effects of the internet on the user.
    I would be very interesting in Reading this study that does not find alteration in d2 receptors. However, there are many caveats.


    1. Maybe the isotope (radioligand) used in PET was not optimal. Or for some reason they lacked enough contrast (a too frequent problem in this type of studies), insufficient number of participants to produce reliable stats, etc.
    2. D2 is just a type of DA receptor. Just looking at one does not disprove anything.
    3. I would also use voxel based morphometry in different parts of the brain. These analyses are very time consuming and people predefined regions of interest. Maybe you disprove alterations in NAc, anyway, you would need to repeat with VTA (probably showing decreased size as heroin addicts). And you may define your 3 ROIs and still… have not considered another critical region you forgot to consider relevant. Say, the insula, or the ACC, etc.
    4. Internet addicts do show alterations in D2 receptors so I would put in question a study on porn denying it, because porn is a subtype of internet addiction. This reasoning is not 100% effective, of course, because exceptions may occur, but I would say is 80% effective.
    5. What about connectivity? You may have a normal density of dopamine receptors, normal given ROI size, and still, show altered resting state functional connectivity (for instance). Many many things have to be assessed.
    6. It is not only a matter of dopamine sensitivity, also of dopamine segregation. You cannot conclude out of normal sensitivity to dopamine, dopamine signaling is right, as dopamine Flow from the VTA may be reduced (which would be hard to show, but still a possibility). This is similar to diabetes type 1 and 2, but for dopamine signaling, you may be impaired by low density of insulin receptors, or sensitivity, or, your receptors are just fine but the pancreas releases too Little insulin. Same here.
    7. The dynorphin point is a good one. I would agree with that part.

    More to think about.
    Best,
    Gary"
     

    Attached Files:

    Deleted Account likes this.

Share This Page