1. Welcome to NoFap! We have disabled new forum accounts from being registered for the time being. In the meantime, you can join our weekly accountability groups.
    Dismiss Notice

Rational Recovery

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by The_Director, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. The_Director

    The_Director Fapstronaut

    26
    61
    13
    I'm interested in starting a discussion of the ideas in Rational Recovery. Over the years, looking into many different systems, this is the only one that has made any sense to me. RR is at odds with most traditional recovery, so most people here would not agree with its ideas. I am not interested to debate whether RR makes sense or not. I am looking to start a thread (if there are enough people interested) to discuss and give support using the RR way of recovery. Please respond or discuss if you are interested.

    One of the things that really draws me to RR is its idea that we should not focus our time on trying to escape the urges, or to make them go away. We make progress when we successfully get through urges until they die down.

    Thanks for reading.

    --

    By the way, two other books that have some similar ideas are "Brain over binge" and "You are not your brain."
     
    learning and Pegasys like this.
  2. SynapticMagic

    SynapticMagic Fapstronaut

    111
    141
    43
    If you'd like people to engage with Rational Recovery, I'd recommend posting some youtube videos or other sources to help us understand exactly what it is and how it differs from traditional recovery approaches. We'd definitely have a more productive conversation if we all knew what it was we were talking about.
     
    Psalm27:1my light and Roady like this.
  3. The_Director

    The_Director Fapstronaut

    26
    61
    13
    SynapticMagic, thanks for the response. Rational recovery has a website that explains it entire way of thinking. You can google it.

    I am not looking for people to engage in RR, but rather for responses from people who *already* agree with what RR says, so that we can discuss the ideas and form support around them. There can be other places to discuss whether or not RR is correct, or if traditional approaches are correct. Therefore if someone does not know what RR is, they can look it up, or read another thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  4. Schnabel

    Schnabel Fapstronaut

    33
    43
    18
    that's basically the SPAM REMOVED (spam code #001) - REPORT TO MODERATION approach, right (google it + .pdf + porn - btw. the second version from July 2020 or something along those lines is far superior)? It's actually pretty good and does feel great. I almost quit porn out of the blue after reading it ... although I didn't even plan so - truth is: I just ran into the link by accident and started reading and next thing I knew is that I was porn free for 10 days or so (revolutionary in my case). However, it didn't work in the long run. I don't blame the method here - just the conceptional flaws of the .pdf, mainly the lack of distinction between porn and masturbation and therefor the lack of understanding, how masturbation can reintroduce porn, which is - in nuce - what fucked me over. I'm not sure though if you can run that kind of approach twice - looks like a one shot to me, but that's just a guess anyhow.

    personally I had my breakthrough with digging deep into biology, neuroscience and psychology and kinda crafting my own behavioral therapy. But I would recommend everyone, who has continuous relapses, to take a look into the SPAM REMOVED (spam code #001) - REPORT TO MODERATION approach.

    so, that's my two cents here.
     
    learning likes this.
  5. The_Director

    The_Director Fapstronaut

    26
    61
    13
    Thanks for the response Schnabel. Yes I've read the SPAM REMOVED (spam code #001) - REPORT TO MODERATION, and it is indeed very good. It is a modification of the first version of the Carr book (The Easy Way to Stop Smoking) from '85. Later versions of the Carr book are a bit different (for instance, he defines the "willpower method" in later versions as "any method that differs from easyway," whereas initially it was defined as a method that requires the smoker to believe they are making a sacrifice.). RR was founded in '86 and the first version of its book was "The Small Book," which focuses a lot on REBT. After RR split from SMART, the philosophy changed, and the newer version of the book is from the '90s. It does not include any therapy and focuses on self-reliance.

    There are definitely similarities between RR and Carr, but there are also some important differences. One of them is that the Carr method states many times that "smokers do not enjoy smoking," whereas RR says that people use substances (or behaviors) ONLY because of pleasure. Both agree that underlying issues are largely irrelevant to recovery.

    I'll try to post some quotes from RR as time goes on and write what I think about them. I'd be interested in anyone who also agrees with the ideas to give their interpretation.
     
  6. ANewFocus

    ANewFocus Fapstronaut

    2,092
    4,010
    143
    Could you share some materials here? I have filters and am unable to access sites with more info.
     
    Pegasys likes this.
  7. Pegasys

    Pegasys Fapstronaut

    19
    36
    13
    THE BEAST CAME BACK

    Why do you use crack Jim?

     
    learning likes this.
  8. The_Director

    The_Director Fapstronaut

    26
    61
    13
    Hey ANewFocus, thanks for the message. Because it would be good if this thread is not deleted due to some violation of terms, I will private message you some links.
     
    ANewFocus likes this.
  9. The_Director

    The_Director Fapstronaut

    26
    61
    13
    Here is a list of points from Brain over Binge, which is inspired by RR:
    • I do not believe binge eating is the result of underlying emotional or psychological issues.
    • I do not believe you need years of therapy in order to stop binge eating.
    • I do not believe you need to follow a strict meal plan or give up any “addicting” foods.
    • I do not believe you need to learn to deal with triggers, dig into your past, manage all of your feelings, or undergo a personal transformation to recover.

      One of the main issues I have had is believing that I am powerless over the urges. This leads me to think of the urges as scary and impossible to deal with. Thinking of addiction as being the result of underlying emotional and psychological issues means that you are powerless to deal with the urges until you have corrected these nearly impossible to detect underlying problems. How do you know that you have corrected all of them? Instead of avoiding urges and being afraid of them, I think we should use the urges as our only tool to get better. Each urge we get through without doing a PMO puts us that much closer to brain rewiring.
     
    PeterGrip likes this.
  10. Little Prince

    Little Prince Fapstronaut

    196
    162
    43
    NoPMO isn't perfect but Rational Recovery is nonsense, it's like bringing in the supernatural to explain basic functionality of the brain...
    The website relates so much to religious fanatics that I don't wish to offer more details and have a debate over it.
     
  11. The_Director

    The_Director Fapstronaut

    26
    61
    13
    Little Prince, thanks for the response.

    I am not interested in debating whether RR makes sense. Feel free to make your own thread (like I did) to discuss what you think makes sense.
     
  12. ANewFocus

    ANewFocus Fapstronaut

    2,092
    4,010
    143
    My therapist has often argued an approach that is rational recovery and I have argued I am powerless. She struggles with that because she treats offenders and if offenders are powerless, then they are unpredictable and unable to recover and thus shouldn’t be released into society.

    I binged recently and did something I have only done in the last month, purchase porn. My beast is telling me not to delete those videos in case I need them again
     
  13. The_Director

    The_Director Fapstronaut

    26
    61
    13
    ANewFocus, thanks for posting. It is important to for us to write and share these ideas to keep our addictive voices in check.

    One of the things that rings so true to me about RR is the idea that we constantly give ourselves an excuse, or an "out," so that we will have some chance to use porn (even in the future). If we believe we are powerless, then we are not responsible for our actions: it was the disease, and we cannot help it! Just like with your beast telling you not to delete those videos. If you don't delete them, you will always have some way to look at them, possibly far in the future. The beast loves even the slightest possibility that we will "relapse" (i.e., use porn). RR says that "the new cure for addiction is personal responsibility." No one will solve this problem for us. We cannot hide from it and will need to face it and take responsibility.
     
    ANewFocus likes this.
  14. Love2LongBoard

    Love2LongBoard Fapstronaut

    132
    264
    63
    I am not familiar with RR but based on the conversation it falls in line with what I have done, and now help others do, to change our behaviors.

    I reject the idea that we are powerless. To be powerless means that I am powerless to recover. I becomes a way to excuse my behavior. It is also a place filled with fear. Too many therapists "diagnose" (I sue parentheses because there is no acknowledge form of pornography addiction or sex addiction in the medical field) men with some kind of addiction. I am not saying that there isn't an element of compulsion. There is. But we taught ourselves to do that, we then use is as justification to act out, which reinforces the compulsive nature of it. But we never lose control.

    I can be pretty appealing to use powerlessness, addiction, loss of control, etc., as justification for our actions. The truth is that we have all done what we do and continue to do what we do because we WANT to. There is no Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

    Until we comes to terms with the fact that we have all the power we need we will not really heal. Generally what is missing is a lack of focus in the areas that matter most.

    For me that is our thinking. CBT teaches that thoughts lead to feelings, feelings lead to actions, actions determine outcomes. By controlling my thinking I can control my urges, my usage, and my outcomes. That has been true for me. I do not experience urges any more. I have transformed my thinking.

    I didn't need to deal with my childhood trauma. I didn't need to forgive anyone. I didn't need a 12 step group or a therapist. I did use a coach though, that is how I was introduced to this method.
     
  15. ANewFocus

    ANewFocus Fapstronaut

    2,092
    4,010
    143
    I know I needed to hear that.
     
  16. learning

    learning Fapstronaut

    I only skimmed the Wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Recovery ), but a difficulty for me would be constructing a rationale when I feel oftentimes unable to see any purpose or meaning to life. I have had depression/anxiety and social anxiety since adolescence (about 40 years), and that has only gotten worse with age. I think about suicide at least a couple of times every week, but luckily I usually also have a couple of good days each week too.

    In my experience, depression makes rational thought impossible. When I am depressed, I should be able to find hope in the knowledge that depression usually only lasts a day or two for me. But instead, I believe that NOT being depressed is irrational. I believe that the rational thing for me is to commit suicide if only I had the courage to follow through on it. Then when the depression finally ends (and usually it ends abruptly like a log jam clearing in my brain) I am frightened by how warped my perspective had been only a few minutes earlier.

    In some ways, depression for me is like being under the influence of a drug. I have found certain chemicals that often can end the depression immediately, so this is further evidence that the depression is caused by chemical imbalances. A person can't simply "put on a happy face" unless the depression is less severe.

    But the Rational Recovery sounds like a good idea generally. I just don't think the underlying causes of the addictive behavior can be ignored in all cases.
     
    ASV likes this.
  17. The_Director

    The_Director Fapstronaut

    26
    61
    13
    Hey learning and Love2LongBoard. Thanks very much for contributing to the discussion. It helps a lot!

    I do agree with LongBoard that it is all about the thinking. It can certainly seem that deeper issues are at play. I do not think it is true in my case.

    One of the main messages, as far as I interpret it, in RR is that we use only because of the thoughts we have that suggest using. It is our job to determine which thoughts we have are those that suggest using (he calls thoughts of "the beast") and which are those that do not (our "own thoughts").

    Every single thought we have that is followed up by porn use is reinforced in our heads. It doesn't matter if this thought is nonsense, irrelevant, or completely true. If we have this thought, and it leads us to use porn, the brain learns that this thought leads to pleasure. In the future, then, we will have this thought and the brain will expect pleasure (i.e., we have an urge). Because of this cycle, even if the thoughts have no real content to them, we start to believe them.

    A perfect example is the thought I have all the time "It doesn't matter what I do, I will eventually look at porn." (Another version of "I am powerless.") I get this thought a lot. I feel sort of like I am being driven to act out by some unknown force, and it doesn't matter if I resist, it will eventually "take me over" and I will look at porn regardless of whether I want to. Does this thought make any sense whatsoever??? In order to look at porn, I have to boot up the computer. There is no evidence at all that I am controlled by a demon or something and have no agency. I may feel foggy, but I still make the decision. But it is a very convincing thought exactly because when I have it, I often use porn. So it seems to make sense. But why do I have this thought? It is because it is often followed by porn! That is, although the thought makes no real sense, because it is often reinforced by great pleasure, I have it over and over. It is a sort of self-fulfilling statement.

    With all of these thoughts, I feel the point made by RR is that they do not have any real significance. They are there simply because they have been reinforced by pleasure. In the words of Brain over Binge, they are "neurological junk." They appear to have great meaning because they seem to lead us to porn, but it is actually the other way around: the porn itself cements the thoughts, rather than the thoughts really leading to porn. Most of the usual statements of recovery are of this type. They do not have much real meaning, but they appear to because the are positively reinforced. If we look closely, we will see that they are mostly illusions, and we believe them just because they appear to lead to porn. It is a tower of illusions, and we are used to analyzing the deeper meaning of these statements, but they are really just junk.

    Also learning, it does indeed sound like you are dealing with a difficult combination of addiction / depression. I'm sorry to hear it, but hopefully some of the ideas in RR will be of use.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
    learning likes this.
  18. ANewFocus

    ANewFocus Fapstronaut

    2,092
    4,010
    143
    When I quit alcohol, I decided one that I was never going to drink again. I screwed up royally with alcohol and knew that my life would be over with it. I did not make that commitment with porn and I have always assumed I could not because I was powerless. My therapist always asked me “why alcohol was different? It’s because you made a choice and decided not to. With porn you do not make that choice.”
     
  19. ANewFocus

    ANewFocus Fapstronaut

    2,092
    4,010
    143
    I have found freedom with believing that I have the power to stop PMO again and can take control. Reading this post has really helped me get to 28 days. I want to never use PM again.
     
  20. ANewFocus

    ANewFocus Fapstronaut

    2,092
    4,010
    143
    I lost my run this week. I struggle to truly commit and sustain commitment and momentum.
     

Share This Page