P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

I haven't taken any drugs in at least 6 years. We know that it's PMO related because symptoms resolve after extremely long periods of abstinence, because there is nothing else that explains it, and because it mimics PWS induced by other drugs of abuse. Most addicts don't get PWS from porn but extreme addicts can and it's absolute hell on Earth.

 

I relate to this so much. For me, exercise does not really feel good... at all. It feels like I have a certain amount of energy from which to draw from and exercise depletes this (as does anything else that requires exertion).

I wonder if instead of an energy tank, it's more like a dopamine tank. Maybe it's just that I don't feel inclined to exercise and I feel awful because my dopamine sensitivity is fucked up? Who knows.

The problem I'm having is I'm not sure whether or not I can attribute how I am feeling to PAWS or to some kind of more subtle sleep disordered breathing. I did two sleep tests and both came back without showing anything really wrong with me, but apparently there can be something wrong that isn't found because of the somewhat arbitrary nature of the grading criteria used.

It's all too confusing and I just don't know what to do. I feel like shit pretty much 24/7; zero energy, no desire to socialize, exercise, etc. Blood work came back good, no major allergies, no major sleep disorders... Porn is the only thing I can think of right now which might actually explain the way I feel. I'm only 5 days into my journey of abstaining from PMO so I should probably give it more time, but I also have a bipap that I could use to see if it helps with my sleep, but I don't want to introduce too many variables at once.

 

I did soooo many medical examinations of what could be wrong with me. I once had a device from the doctor at my house that recorded my stats while breathing at night because I also thought of having some form of sleep apnoe. Turned out I am just fine health wise. There is nothing wrong with me on a physical level. PAWS and prior addiction completely fucks up your fight or flight response and thus your cortisol and adrenaline levels. If those are elevated for longer times then you will feel symptoms in the body which can be quite present. At some point you might think there is something going in your body. I thought that my gut is fucked up for a very long time. I did very clean and strict eating, took probiotics and all the stuff to get back a healthy gut but those symptoms are still there. I’m not saying don’t work on a healthy gut. I’m saying realise that the original problem stems of your brain being derailed for a very long time and thus unable to perform normally and act accordingly to different tasks.

It’s important to check for health issues but I personally went through every checkup and I‘m totally fine. It’s all PAWS and stress for years.

 

I would like to believe this is the case just so I can explain why I feel the way I do and hopefully address it. Have you found any kind of relief or improvement of these things by abstaining from porn and/or masturbation/orgasm? If so, how long did it take until you started noticing improvements? I'm curious as to what your experience has been like and would love to hear more about it.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but have you read back through this thread?

Personally, yes - I have had relief from these symptoms by abstaining, while also factoring in other things along the way. It's really simple. Kind of brutal, but simple.

 

I‘m partaking in this thread since about 1-2 months if I’m remembering right. You can read it yourself as I often give updates on my status. Since a few weeks I’m noticing several positive changes.

 

Porn fantasy is powerfully addictive so if you have a long history of compulsive PMOing, edging, escalating content, and PIED then you need to address it no matter what because you're already desensitizing. It's not like there is a scenario where you can keep the addiction and be a happy person. Hopefully you won't experience PAWS. You're only 5 days in so you'll just have to wait and see.

 

Hey DerJogge, your post reminded me of something. Betablockers are very good at easing many of the physical effects of the fight or flight response like rapid pulse, palpitations, shortness of breath, and tightness in the chest and they are used extensively in addiction withdrawal. Propranolol is great for those symptoms and it has no psychoactive effects whatsoever because it can't cross into the brain. It kicks in in about 45 minutes so you can use it as needed. Some people use it for performance anxiety and public speaking and doctors are usually pretty open to prescribing it because it's very safe. It's the only drug I take, only on real bad days though.

Also, fight or flight obviously tears up the gut but remember that some people have increasing difficulty digesting certain foods like dairy as they get past their teens. Dairy fats especially destroy my gut and increase GERD symptoms every time. Just saying that some persistent gut issues have a legit source other than anxiety. Digestive enzymes like lactose and lipase help some people with symptoms.

 

Exhaustion is the worst for me currently. The only thing that has made me better has been abstaining from PMO, a pure monk/hard mode is the only thing that has worked. All in all, I should be a healthy adult male living life to the fullest according to all the health checkups. If I overdo something trivial, let's say a 30 minute walk or clean vigorously for an hour, then I'm exhausted for the rest of the day and possible the next day as well so I have to be careful not to overdo things.

I'm now more interested in how do you guys handle triggers since obviously we live in a modern world where sex and nudity is ubiquitous unless you happen to live a hermit life in the mountains which I doubt any of you do. For example, today I was watching a documentary and there were a few paintings of naked women in an art gallery which I glanced over quickly and didn't start to fantasize but focused on the interview itself. Obviously that was a setback for me in my current state as I'm starting to feel slightly increased energy levels again. That is also one of the reasons why I don't use a counter anymore. Was that porn? Seeing them even for a second? Am I credible any more with my counter and/or talking on the forums about being clear of PMO for x amount of time when I've seen them? I don't crave for porn anymore and every day without it feels better and I want to live like this for the rest of my life.

So, how do you handle triggers?

 

I ignore them and don't give them any energy anymore. I quickly endure the emotional angst that I feel and then let it go. The main thing is to distinguish between something that triggers a release of hormones and natural libido versus a trigger to "get high" on PMO dopamine. If seeing a nude portrait gives you anxiety about PMO then it's probably a sign that you just haven't resensitized yet. If it gives you an erection then you're probably healing which is positive, although just seeing a painting shouldn't really do that unless you're 16 or so

For me right now, seeing nudity feels similar to how an alcoholic feels when he sees a cold beer. It's not the same thing as libido at all. Either way though, deny any urge to pursue it and feel proud of your discipline and willpower. Try to take pride in your resistance. Resisting isn't a consolation prize, it's how you rewire your brain. Create a positive memory from the experience. It's just a painting. If you didn't make graphics in your head and you didn't make your own mental movie about it then it wasn't porn. It sounds like you did the right thing and focused on the documentary. That's the normal response.

 

I like this picture. It makes me think of what's happening in our brains the longer we neglect the addiction pathways that we maintained for so long. It reminds me that life will eventually flourish if we just get out of it's way.

 

That is the big question! For the last couple of months I've felt so physically terrible that I've rarely been triggered at all. It's only really happened once, and on that occasion I saw a very click-baity image in an online ad, so I just got up from my computer and walked to the far side of the room and waited for the urge to subside, then went back and closed the browser. Time before that was a 2 hour zoom meeting with a group of strangers, one of whom was... well, I didn't cope well with that situation. It was unexpected, so I was caught off guard, and I had to sit there for 2 hours getting more and more steamed up during the call, so that was an unusual and severe test, which wasn't typical, as triggers go.

In general, if I see something arousing, then as long as I don't linger on the image - ie look at it for more than I have to, or think about it beyond it being an observation or passing thought, then that's fine - I give myself a pass. Sometimes I just switch off the TV / phone etc. If I do linger / press pause / start to fantasize, then that's not good, but I wouldn't reset my counter unless I actually PMO'd. Triggers are inevitable in such a hyper-sexualized, hyper-connected world, so I accept that they are going to happen, but just because they are there doesn't mean I have to respond to them, and sometimes I actually enjoy the sense of control that I have in being able to resist.

Doubtless some sceptical psychologist type will jump all over that as being evidence of a mental health disorder akin to anorexia, but a bit of self-control is something I often lack, so it's a good thing to nurture as far as I'm concerned. It can also be a much more peaceful state of mind to be in. It takes practise to get there, and I'm only part way there myself. I do talk myself through a series of anti-PMO "mantras" each morning, to prepare myself for the day ahead. Beyond that I guess my best suggestion is just to stay the course for as long as it takes. It is the right thing to do, so don't let that sneaky "inner addict" talk you round!

 

Hey guys,
a fellow PAWS-sufferer here. Do any of you share a group chat where you discuss the struggles of PAWS? This thread is a great one, but I find it a bit messy. A group chat on Reddit would be ideal, I think. Thoughts?

 

For me Reddit is a no-go; it's just to easy to access P on there.

 

I had not at that point. I think I saw the 80+ pages of posts and felt overwhelmed; it didn't occur to me I could just go back a couple pages to get more of DerJogge's story. Despite really enjoying the interaction here I feel like it might not be great for me to immerse myself so much in a thread like this; I would probably end up perseverating on every potential negative outcome of my recovery process.

Though in reading back a bit, I have seen more than one guy describe symptoms similar to mine. One guy talked about not getting out of bed, or being able to go up to the store, etc. I can relate to that so much. It's actually fucking insane, because here I am in my early thirties, otherwise healthy (if not slightly overweight), with no indications of disease or really any kind of problem health-wise, and yet I can still feel like utter shit most of the time with no energy to do hardly anything worthwhile. Dragging my ass to work is sometimes a monumental challenge. This is why I did a sleep study recently; I was legit concerned I had a sleep disorder and might not be able to continue working at some point in the future if it continued to get worse. To my complete amazement, nothing substantially wrong was found with me in the study. I began to think that "the doctor missed something" and that I have a more subtle form of sleep apnea (which technically is still possible but we're venturing into the "less likely" territory of possible explanations at this point).

I feel like I've become the person that I never wanted to be - the person who is looking for things to be wrong with them. I feel like I'm grasping at straws trying to find something wrong with me so that I can finally explain why I have no energy. Why I have no desire or inclination to achieve anything beyond what I already have, why I have little to no interest in women or sex, or starting a family. I've told my therapist before that I feel like I just don't "get it" when it comes to relationships. Previously I had told myself that I was introverted and just happier on my own. And that may well be true, but could the reason be because I've fucked my brain via PMO over 15-20 years?

I mean, could this all really be explained by PMO use? I have read Your Brain on Porn, watched several educational YouTube videos, and read hundreds of personal anecdotes and I still can hardly believe or accept that these symptoms, this chronic fatigue and eternal lack of energy that I feel, could actually be explained by porn use. This is all rhetorical; I know the answer is "yes", I just can't wrap my mind around how these things could be linked.

And even so, I still don't know this is truly the case - I don't actually know that PMO has caused my problems. The only way I will know that is by cutting it out for... apparently up to two fucking years or more. One thing that's interesting is that I have felt like total shit for the past 3 years despite continuing to use PMO (I only started nofap two weeks ago); I don't know how it can get much worse than it has already on some days. Some days I have felt so bad. I actually remember thinking about walking outside my apartment complex, jumping in the dumpster, and just shooting myself in the head. I had that thought for a long time. I don't struggle with suicidal ideation as much these days, but I mean goddamn, I wonder how it can get worse than that after deciding to quit PMO. I hope I don't find out. I wonder if perhaps I've been in a sort of flatline for the past 3 years despite continuing to use. I wouldn't use necessarily every single day, so maybe I just kept pulling myself in and out of a flatline with my usage habits...

Over the past two weeks that I've been doing nofap I faltered a couple times at the beginning but have been going strong for 10 days straight now. I have tried to avoid all kinds of artificial arousal and perhaps I should consider not visiting reddit at all at least for the first 90 days or so (I saw an extremely attractive virtually naked cosplayer with bodypaint a couple days ago that caused me to start feeling that "buzz" in my head). I've deleted fb and instagram from my phone.

I've noticed that I've been way more irritable recently. A couple days ago when playing games with my friends I broke the spacebar on my keyboard because I slammed it so hard when I died due to anger. I can get tilted when I play games and sometimes I like to slam my desk for fun (it's made out of some incredibly tough particle board of some kind and is funny to hear it slammed over the mic), but I have never really slammed my expensive RGB keyboard before especially not without such rage and blatant disregard for hurting it, and the other night I just let loose on it multiple times with full force. I felt like a fucking idiot afterwards and have already ordered replacement parts for the spacebar (should be easily fixable), but it's made me wonder if perhaps this irritability and anger is a result of quitting PMO.

I feel that I have been more of an asshole when gaming with my friends, that I've been getting way too invested in winning and too angry when we don't. I don't yell at them or anything but I feel like my anger is probably fairly palpable regardless, and I don't like that at all. I actually said "no" to gaming with my good friend last night because 1. I was tired and 2. I was afraid of going off on him, embarrassing myself, or otherwise just not having any fun. That's another thing - video games have not been fun at all for me these past few days. Normally I absolutely love playing online games with my friends. What I find strange is that if these are withdrawal symptoms to PMO I'm not consciously aware of it. Like, I don't feel like I need to use PMO to feel better.

I have felt a tremendous amount of guilt and shame not just related to porn use but for other things in my life. Some things which happened 6 years ago. It's like all of these thoughts and emotions suddenly resurfaced (or perhaps surfaced) and it's kind of overwhelming. I find myself struggling to forgive myself for things that happened several years ago. That is honestly probably the hardest thing I've had to deal with yet; being able to forgive myself.

Waking up in the morning is probably the most difficult part of my day. Once I get going I tend to feel better as the day goes on, and typically I feel my best at night. I wonder why this is (if it's related to PMO that is). Maybe it has something to do with dopamine and sleep? Anyways, I can wake up and feel like I haven't really slept at all. It's so easy to sleep; I almost feel like I could just keeping going back to sleep indefinitely if I wanted to. I feel a heavy brain fog in the morning and I feel it kind of right behind my eyes; it's hard to explain. Kind of like a mild headache but a bit different. This typically fades to varying degrees after I get up and moving around.

I know that I need to be developing good habits to replace PMO with but it's so hard because I still don't feel that I have the energy or desire to do so. Like exercise for example, I would love to actually enjoy lifting weights or feeling like I have the energy to do so, but I don't. And if I force myself to do it anyways, I tend to feel like shit. Maybe this is just my addict brain talking I should "just do it" anyways. I'm not sure.

 

Listen mate. I know very well how you feel and how hard it is to wrap your head around the fact that using porn and masturbation is responsible for all this but in the end it is. You talk about the fact that you don’t have real interest in real women - I can’t put into words how much my reality changed since I stopped using PMO and even more when I completely stopped orgasms. I still feel bad most of the days but man my outlook and symptoms get better and better with each month that is passing and just those last few weeks where the anedonia is just gone for most of the time feel like a small light at the end of tunnel, just a small light. I spend years of finding an illness or anything that is wrong with my body. There is nothing, my brain is just off with its stress reaction because I fucked up my neurotransmitter levels via an addiction. Put trust into the process, determine 2 years of healing yourself and I don’t think you will be disappointed. In the end you loose nothing by trying, if you feel worse at the end of those 2 years then you still can go back to wasting your energy but you know where this will lead you to. Your symptoms, your condition led you to this time and place. Just a read a little more and watch how your mind reacts. One part of you tries to question that PMO is responsible for all of that. It’s basically your addicted ego trying to keep itself alive. A part of you actually tries to prevent your recovery. Get out of your misery and start now, the symptoms won’t get any better by staying in the addiction - everyone in here can admit to that.

 

Thanks.

While it certainly could be the addicted ego trying to survive, I also am afraid of being a hypochondriac. Like, maybe I will never figure out why I feel this way and I should just stop searching and make the best with what I have?

One thing I know for sure is that porn has no redeeming qualities. I think that I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by removing it from my life and committing to this process for the foreseeable future. I think that part of me is also afraid of what kind of life might lie beyond my current existence. How will I face the person that I've been? What if I end up meeting someone; how can I be with them and be without shame and guilt? Again, rhetorical questions; I'm sure these are questions I have to figure out for myself.

Unrelated; have there been any reports on here (or otherwise) mentioning bad experiences with marijuana? Whenever I use it I tend to get anxiety and paranoia and it really doesn't make me feel good in any way, shape, or form. If I use too much it's fucking horrible, and if I use the "right" amount it still feels like work. Just wondering, could there be any connection to dopamine issues caused by PMO and one's experience with marijuana?

 

For everyone here who has PAWS, do me a huge favor. Chime in and talk about all of your digestive issues both before and after withdrawal. I've had chronic heartburn, gastritis, random diarrhea, and abdominal tightness for decades now. I'm very interested to know if other people here have a history of indigestion and gut inflammation during the escalation of their addiction. Likewise if your gut is perfect and you don't know what indigestion means, let us know about that too!

 

I was a heavy user for many years and part of main problem was definitely weed, PMO and video gaming. If you have feelings of anxiety while consuming weed or the days after then chances are pretty high that your anxiety/stress reaction is way off, which in my eyes, would be another hint onto present negative symptoms that arise from addiction or what ever. Before being addicted to weed I would say PMO was not something that caused any major symptoms or problems in my life. It’s not like it didn’t had an negative effect on me, it’s just that I didn’t notice anything bad like the last few years after having an orgasm. But I remember only to have about 1-3 orgasms a week and often just use fantasy. When I was a heavy weed user I ultimately only used porn to masturbate and the stuff got pretty hardcore real quick. I think weed makes your senses more sensitive and you often experience reality more intense. If you now put a dopamine releasing activity in the equation then weed works like an enhancer or multiplier. I was high out of my mind most of the times a I played video games. Sober they were just half the fun, same for masturbation and porn. Weed certainly was my main addiction causing things like Derealisation/Depersonalisation which I don’t see very often in here. I often tend to get hyper aware of reality and everything that is happening. My stress/anxiety reaction actually sets of when I focus to much on my symptoms and when I put attention onto my visual disturbances but the visual problems are not something I worry to much about any more. It’s the same as tinnitus and other fight or flight symptoms that will leave once I lived a prolonged time in relaxation and peace.

Again if you ask me, you seem to be prone to anxiety which just could be caused by low neurotransmitter levels and thus letting you react badly to outside or inside events.

Concerning hypochondria: I often got told that I’m a hypochondriac but you know what? My constant eager to get behind my symptoms and their cause brought me to this thread and the realisation that I have PAWS. I was more then 4-6 months into Hardmode before I even knew that there is a term called PAWS. I would have saved so much time and energy if I only would have known about PAWS earlier. I often quit my addictions and then kept living life but after 2-4 months I felt even worse then when I was consuming and I just said fuck it, if this is what sobriety feels like then shit I go back to consuming. But this wasn’t what true sobriety feels like - I was way down in PAWS and every professional or online forum told me that most withdrawals and symptoms are gone by 2-3 months. I lived in the believe that I chronically damaged my brain to the point of feeling like this for the rest of my life. Me having really good days from time to time proofs that this is utter bullshit. If you fuck up your brain with so many drugs like I did while gaming and PMOing the whole time then the brain needs time to heal.

 

Yeah my digestion is shit. Almost always diarrhea for this chap. And food doesn't taste that great for me most of the time either.


Also--yes, weed makes me incredibly nuts. Paranoia, anxiety, the works. Weed and porn ,for me, went hand in hand, and they both started to turn on me. Weed turned on me faster, but porn, obviously, has done more long term damage and left me in a near constant state of anxiety. Going to the store is very difficult for me to do.