P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Hmm! I seriously regret getting hooked on sleeping tablets, mainly because there is a cancer risk which I am starting to fret about, which I wasn't really aware of until recently, but I am going to have to get something checked out healthwise - long story, there may be no connection, but then again... Going back 10+ years ago I saw them as a saviour, after 2 decades of chronic insomnia. Of course now I know that the insomnia was a result of constant PMO. 10-12 years ago I was starting to make the connection between PMO and poor sleep, but reluctant to give up my drugs. Looking back, although it would have been tough as hell, it would have been better if I'd had them taken away at a point where I was relatively well and physically resilient. It may have provided the motivation to quit PMO back then, because quitting would have been my only way to sleep well(ish). Sleep has been a massive issue for me in its own right, and is a huge part of my motivation to quit PMO.

On question I have is: if I gave up the medication right now, what would be the bigger liability - lack of sleep, which would be severe for perhaps a year or more, or the possible carcinogenic risks of the tablets?

Beyond that... sleep hygiene is pretty good. I avoid screens after 9pm and read a book before bed, don't eat too late, rarely drink.

I have had long periods where I have meditated before bed. I did it for much of the last year, but I really can't say that I saw an improvement, either in terms of sleep or PMO. Although I've had times where it's seemed to clear my head a little, it hasn't really done anything more. I may try a different way of doing it. But generally I don't struggle to switch off my mind, it's just that without medication I just lie there wide awake for hours.

I dunno man... medication is a problem I've been avoiding dealing with for over a decade, and it's finally coming to a head, along with pretty much everything else - general health, job loss, and more, with a background of COVID.

I'm really angry with myself because in the past, after about 10-14 days PMO-free, my sleep would improve drastically, and I could at least start to reduce the dosage, before... I would lapse and start the cycle again. Over the last 2 years, my ability to recover like that has disappeared, so my ability to reduce the dosage is limited. TBH this is my biggest issue right now. As I write this I'm drawing the iconic Day 90 hardmode to a close for the first and hopefully last time. But it feels like too little too late. I think my use of sleeping tablets enabled me to carry on abusing PMO with seemingly little consequence for a long time, but it's all gone to shit. Right now I'm just hoping I come out the other side.

EDIT - just to clarify, it may be Day 90, but it feels like day 1 in terms of physical and mental health / symptoms etc. I feel horrific... I think the 90 day hardmode thing only really works for people recovering from ED. I think for PAWS, or WTF ever it is I'm suffering from right now, as others here have said, you're looking at a much longer timespan.

 

So how many hours of sleep would you get per night when things were at their worst?

 

The issue with your sleeping pills is going to depend on what kind they are and your dosage. I would say with 100% certainty though that you should be very careful about withdrawing from anything else while going through PMO PAWS. It can destabilize you even further if you make the wrong choice. Be very careful. The worst mistake I ever made was thinking that my anxiety, fatigue, and depression was being caused by my sleep/anti anxiety meds and quitting them abruptly. PMO addiction was the real problem and I just made it 10x worse.

As for me, today is 9 months hard mode. No relapses at all. I'm only now seeing some improvements in my thinking. I still have the cognitive impairments and anhedonia but I do have slightly more resilience when it comes to focusing on a task at the computer. There's still is no real reward from what I'm doing but I'm now able to go much longer on pure willpower than before. There is also less rebound fatigue from heavy thinking. It's not great but it is a definite sign of improvement in the prefrontal area.

 

3 or 4 hours, I would wake up in the middle of the night (usually 4:00 AM) and I couldn't fall asleep afterwards, so I would stay awake until morning
I couldn't sleep for 3 years, I was taking naps at night, but I wasn't sleeping

 

Hi Younameit,
I am looking forward to reading what you have discovered (about recovering from endless flatlines) in your future post.

Here is some sort of a summary of my story and experience with PAWS and recovery:

I have struggled with this issue for many years so it is not easy to put it into a small post, but I will try. I am experiencing a lot of brain fog and cognitive impairment as I am typing this, which is making it quite challenging.

I currently have not watched porn in over 22 months, but am experiencing brutal PAWS that are making my life a misery. I have frequent sex with a partner, and try hard to stay away from any artificial stimuli. I am in great shape (under 10% bodyfat), eat healthy and exersice regularly. I have spoken to doctors about my issues and have not found anything unusual in my blood tests. Testosterone levels are good. I’ve never taken any serious medications or ED drugs.

I consider myself to be a very severe case. I am now 22 years old, and was a frequent user of high speed internet porn at around the age of 12. PMO 2-3 times a day was normal up until the age of 16. Long story short I had severe erection problems when I was having sex for the first time. Im pretty sure I had entered a flatline not long before this (wasnt able to stream porn sites like usual because I was on a family vacation).

It didnt take a long time before i found out about YBOP and nofap, and it all made sense. I had never thought that my porn use could cause this type of damage. I remember reading a comment when I was pretty new to porn, by a doctor saying that masturbating to porn 3 times a day wasnt dangerous at all, and that it is only healthy to experiment with your sexuality.

Ive had maaaany streaks. Some 3-6 months, but also longer. My main reason for relapsing was usually because I lost hope. I couldnt even imagine how long full recovery can take. Ive failed countless of times with girls, many times weak erections, other times complete ED and no libido.

Early in the process I got a GF and didn’t watch porn or masturbate for 1,5 years. I was having a lot of orgasms but only from sex. I was hoping that cutting out porn and masturbation would be enought. I saw small improvememts, but felt far from cured. I could have sex that was not very enjoyable with sluggish erections. This made me think at the time that the only way to recover is to go hardmode for a long period before rewiring.

Now many years later I have had a lot of experience with this issue, but am still fighting. I am currently on my longest «streak», over 22 months no porn, and probably a maximum of 10 MO only to sensation. The first 5 months or so were hardmode. I have a partner atm and am trying to limit sex to once a week but it is not easy. The reason for MO was to try to kickstart my libido and experimenting.

I call this my last reboot because porn will never be a part of my life again. Staying away from porn is the easiest part of recovery for me at this stage.

I have on some rare occasions had spikes of libido, and amazing sex. This helps me keep my hopes up that I some day can snap out of this shit.

The worst part of the whole process has been my extreme PAWS, and my current 22 month streak has been horrible to put it mildly. The strange thing is that in the start of my recovery I didnt have all these unusual symptoms. I only remember having no libido/flatline, social anxiety and mild depression. The worst ones have appeared after many relapses. Now in this last streak I have pretty much experienced all of the common ones. I have debilitating brain fog and cognitive impairment, social anxiety, depression, no motivation, anhedonia, low libido, semen leakage after bowels and the list goes on. My sleep is also very strange. I can sleep 8-10 hours and still feel like shit in the mornings.

I think that was enough for now hahah. I will gladly answer any questions. Just remember that as long as you stay away from porn, there is always hope. I have experienced that relapses can erase all progress, and keep you in a permanent flatline.

 

Your story is both demotivating and motivating at the same time. 22 months is great, but it sucks to hear that someone is still feeling the symptoms after that long of a recovery. I'm at 14 months and things have gotten a little easier lately, but the last 2-3 days have been tougher, and I'm worried that I was in a temporary oasis rather than some kind of permanent refuge.

Nice job making it 22 months. Hope things turn around soon.

 

Thanks mate. 14 months is great! The good thing is that every brain is different, so dont let my 22 months demotivate you. Also, I am having probably way to many orgasms with a partner, which I am pretty sure is making the process longer. From reading hundreds of posts it seems like for guys in our situation, periods without orgasm are very important.

I realize that my post sounds demotivating, so I will mention some positive sides. The first time I had sex it was not enjoyable at all. I had very weak erections, almost erectile dysfunction. I could barely feel the orgasm. In the start i suffered from DE, then PE. Let me also mention that before quitting my erections had become weak even with porn.

Now in this latest recovery I have experienced the most amazing sex, with no PE or DE problems, and solid erections. I had no idea it could be that good. It still varies quite a bit though.

In my post above I mention that a few positive experiences and spikes in libido are what give me hope. I will share with you the best/weirdest one I have. This was probably around 16 months ago. I was going on a one week vacation with a small group. A nice girl I knew, and had slept with in the past was also joining us. Prior to this I had been avoiding all porn and intentional orgasms (for around 6 months), but was experiencing the usual shitty symptoms. I also had low libido of course. So fast forward, we end up going for it the first night. I got a decent erection but orgasmed in under a minute, so she was obviously very impressed by my performance hehe. But here is the weird part. After this O, I felt completely cured. No PAWS symptoms combined with a raging libido. I was popping solid erections effortlessly without any manual stimulation. I didnt want to go back into a flatline, so I tried to limit sex to once a day. My libido definitely wasnt the one stopping the action. Even being drunk didnt affect me at all. This lasted the whole trip and felt too good to be true. Shortly after returning home I reentered a flatline, and this spark I had felt withing me faded away. 2 weeks later I got another opportunity with a girl, but had ED.

The worst part atm is as I said the PAWS, tension headaches, brutal brain fog and anxiety. But these symptoms also vary, and are directly affected by orgasms and triggers on screens. I can for example feel pretty good, and then a random revealing picture pops up and I get brain fog. Another example is that I can have bad symptoms, and then after O they will go away for like a day or two. I know it might sounds strange to some people.

Hopefully this post was a little more encouraging! I wanted to share this story because I find it extremely interesting. It shows that our brain can pop out of this shit if it really wants to. Our extremely strong sensitized pathways created during adolescence are just very stubborn. I think that what makes recovering from PIED so hard (and take so long) is that its not black and white. Maybe a trigger does to us what a sip of beer would do to an alcoholic. Im sure having a sip of beer every now and then would make his recovery a lot harder!

 

Cheers for the reply. I think quickly removing medication would be a mistake for precisely the reasons you give. Rather not give the specifics of what I take (I'm in danger of doxing myself some times given the amount of personal info I pour into Nofap...), but dose is fairly high, and has been for a long time. I have cut back by 1/6th over last few months, and tried to go down by another 1/6th, but hit problems, so am taking things very slow at 5/6th my "usual" dose.

Congrats on 9 months hardmode - every day, and every month gets us that little bit closer to a full and healthy life.

 

3 years.... yikes!

 

Hey, it's good to see this shit for what it is while you're young, and get things sorted out now rather than limp along (so to speak) in to later life with a myriad of problems that ruin your quality of life. It sounds like you're doing really well. I'd say your story is pretty optimistic.

 

This might be an unpopular opinion but do you have considered that orgasm themselves are the problem? I started with noFap in june 2018 and had one 3 day binge in between but beside that I haven't watched porn or masturbated since 2018. I think for some us orgasms are part of the addiction. I think most of the living people are in some form affected by having to much orgasms. Not everyone is addicted but many are.

There is a nook called "Cuipids Poisoned arrow". You might want to read it and I think this will solve the puzzle why you don't feel better yet. I think full recovery of all symptoms requires at least 2-3 years of hardmode. Which means that you should avoid any form of sexual arrousal through those years. At some point your brain can't differintiate between PMO/sex and it's all just one big cluster of feel-well-hormones that your brain is bathing in.

I was in a similiar situation as you as I had a girlfriend. I had sex pretty often but I abstained from PMO. I didn't felt better in any way and especially things like social anxiety were very present. The books talks about all the effects that orgasm can have you. 2-3 years of hardmode is pretty overwhelming in thoughts for many people that are regulary active. But my personal experience is that orgasmic-sex is the kickstarter for so many problems, mood-swings, suffering and drama. It's one of the reasons we live in such hedonistic times. It's like the fundament of bringing chaos into our neurotransmitter-levels which then needs soothing by other external stimuli as coffee, alcohol, video games and drugs in order to fix the chaos caused by the orgasmic hangover. Most humans don't notice this hangover as they are to involved in their coping mechanisms.

For me a girlfriend and hardmode didn't worked. My girlfriend was to attracted to me and she wasn't able to withstand the sexual abstinence. She was addicted to the sexual thrill as well but she was to comfortable in her situations. When you don't feel impairing symptoms yet - why would you leave the sweet nectar of sexual pleasure?! She broke up with me and since then I'm in pure hardmode 15 months and while symptoms got so bad as never before - I think this is the first time in my life where true healing occurs and that's why my brain feels this bad because the pleasure flow has stopped.

 

Thanks for your reply my friend. Different experience and opinions are very important in helping to learn more about this new phenomenon.

To answer your question, yes I have definitely considered that orgasms themselves may be a big part of the problem. The 1,5 year relationship I mentioned ended because of this exact reason. It wasnt possible for me to be in a relationship without having orgasms.

Still, I hope that complete abstinence is not the only way to heal. It may be the most efficient though, at least for some people. A life without orgasms and only karezza sex is not for me. I love women and just want to have a normal sex life, and feel good on a daily basis.

I believe in «everything with moderation» with all things in life. A normal sex life is good, but being addicted to sex and forcing it, probably not.

Having sex and orgasms is not something humans just started doing recently, we have always done it. Internet porn is the only thing that has changed. Getting turned on by a girl feels like a totally different thing to me that watching porn. Its like watching boxing vs actually getting punched in the face. Lets call porn the latter in this case hahah.

I know that what you probably mean though is that even before porn, humans would have been better of without orgasming. Maybe they would feel a little sharper the next day or so if they didnt orgasm, but in my opinion it is well worth it anyways. Of course that is for every person to decide for themselves But I am sure none of these people were experiencing the horrible side-effects that we guys are.

I believe I will fully recover before the 3 year mark, as long as I listen to my body and dont force sex. Anyways, what you’re doing sounds solid, so dont lose hope in the darkest times! We at least know that no matter how bad we feel, porn will never make it better.....

 

U may never get 100% booted if u still consume any dopamine increasing substance be it drug or alcohol, I saw a post of someone here saying after 14months he has not yet recovered, I have gone 5months without watching porn but yet I have not yet recovered this is due to the fact that after I got completely booted in the 3rd month I consumed codeine for cough and my brain relapsed full time, so I started afresh I would rather say I have gone 2months but not yet fully recovered cause my first progress was ruin by codeine I took

 

Just want to say for me sex was still detrimental to my recovery. You still release a ton of dopamine even in normal sex, which makes it extremely tough to recover. Porn is like crack, but real sex is still a drug, and should be avoided during recovery in my experience

 

I understand you fully but just one side note: it's a thin line between needing something your life to feel normal or good like for example body hygiene: I have to shower everyday in the morning to feel some form of readiness and comfort to go on with my day. On the other side there are things that your mind articulates as a neediness for which actually is already an addiction and you mistaken it for something it isn't. The mind is very good in deluding itself. Concerning your argument that people have orgasmic-sex since the beginning of time (and that's why we even exist): just look back on the horror and suffering that mankind caused over the last thousand years and how emotionally uncontrolled many male humans acted out. I'm not saying that all of this is rooted in a neurotransmitter-chaos caused by orgasmic-sex but more like the fact that the mind gets out of control at a certain point and the mind believes that the root of satisfaction and fullfilment lies in the external world and that you just have to get this and that in order to be happy. What if this conditioning goes hand in hand with the arrising of sexual needs and thus the hunt and chase of finding a partner because mating with a beautiful woman is like one of the most fullfilling things as young person, like tasting a drug the first time in its full effect. Acquiring wealth and a social status to impress and attract women and then have sex with them. I feel like most of my thriving and motivation towards women was subconsciously fueled by the longing of having sex with her. Yes sexual craving and the need for orgasmic-sex is completely natural and normal but does this make it healthy and wise to do? Just because most of the adult people drink alcohol in order to cope with the stress life throws at their head, doesn't make it any better and healthy to do. Just because it's socially normal and accepted to do something doesn't mean it's good for reaching you true happy self. Nature cares of reproduction and not you being emotionally and mentally happy in the longterm. What if the best way to keep the reproduction going, is by destabilizing your neurotransmitter-levels so you take action to fix them by having another orgasm again?! If you take this game to far then you might reach a point where your neurotransmitter-levels are so out of balance that you feel those impairing symptoms we all do. I think this is the point many of us reach and at this point it doesn't matter if you're masturbating or masturbating inside of another person.

I just feel like we have taken our sexuality so far over the edge that it takes some time of pure abstinence. If you suffered from ED then chances are pretty good that you took your PMO habit to the outer limits. Full abstinence of sexual arousal might not be needed for ever but is required to make a clean reboot. I'm just making you aware of my experience and conclusion because I want to warn you from idling in between PAWS symptoms for a very long time without making any progress and healing never truly occurs. Just keep an eye on yourself and your sex habit and most importantly be honest to yourself. As mentioned before I would highly recommend the book I told you about. It's not just "orgasms are bad, stop having them". It actually talks about the things that are happening in between two people and how too much sexual arrousal causes too much friction and drama. I saw most of my relationships in a completely different light after reading that book. So much stuff made sense and feels logical afterwards. Any yes, I understand how karreeza sex sounds boring and not so attractive in the first minute but this mind reaction is based on the assumption of your current sexual tolerance and excitement levels. Very slow and intimate sex doesn't sound to inviting to a mind that is used to normal/orgasmic-sex. After 15 months of abstinence, I would love to have relaxed karreeza-sex with the woman I love. It's not like excitement filled with lust and wanting - it's more of a comforting and warming feeling of delightness, comparable to taking a nap in your bed while the sun is shining onto your bed and everything just being fine at the moment. I know I'm preaching at this point, please forgive me but I can resonate so much to the way you feel right now and part of my preaching comes from my own experience and the feeling of not letting another human being walk into the same trap I went in. But please know that everything I told you is just a suggestion and recommendation. I fully understand if all of this doesn't feels tangible for you and if you just nod it of - that's really okay. But what if 150-200 pages of reading a book could change the perspective and well-being of your life for the next decades. If the content doesn't resonates with you then you lost nothing but several evenings of reading a book. But enough from me at this point. I just had the urge to tell you all that and as I said, don't feel pressured or forced to listen to anything I just told you. Everybody in here makes decisions on their own free will and everyone else can just point into different directions and support each other.

 

I had a gf for the first 11 months and I couldn't tell whether or not sex was hurting my recovery. I definitely made it more difficult due to chaser effects and post-coital hangover, but I could never tell if it was doing anything detrimental in the long term.

I would still have gone through with it looking back because it helped me feel like a normal person, helped me feel confident, and gave me some moments of pleasure in a life that was totally absent of it.

To each their own though, because I do understand the idea that it's unhealthy to do it while our brains are in this state. Parts of the sex didn't feel pure, and my libido felt a little tarnished. sometimes I get horny during PAWs these days but I know that it's not natural. It's all part of the same bullshit. Rarely do I ever feel attracted to real women. I still have this lusty, kinda creepy attraction, and I need to actively fight it. Because it ain't real.

 

I appreciate the time and effort spent on your reply DerJogge

I will definitely read Cupids poisoned arrow. It is not the first time i hear someone mention it so it must be worth it

I can definitely see where you are coming from and how you are thinking. Just to clear some stuff up, I agree that severe cases need to avoid all orgasms for a period of time. In my first post I wrote a bit about my streaks. I have many long ones with no O, some up to 6 months at a time. I started this currently 22 month one with 5 months no O. It even feels stupid calling it a streak or reboot, because it sounds like its just temporary. Recovery for me now is almost effortless. I have tried the different options and found a strategy that works for me. If I dont have a partner in the future, I will go hardmode until I find a new one.

Both my view and what I want from sex now has changed completely. I just look at it as having a good time together with another person. I dont look at girls as some sort of object at all. I really enjoy slow karezza style, no problem. But I also want to enjoy an orgasm when I feel like. Of course guys like us need to be careful not to get too caught up in sex. We need to master our desires.

What I really want to emphasize is the importance of cutting out artificial stimuli from your life. Even stuff that «regular» people look at as harmless, and appropriate for kids to watch. This does not make it okay for a lad recovering from PIED. I am sure in my case that using tinder is faaaar worse than having sex with orgasm. Even scrolling through youtube or instagram fires up my old pathways sometimes. Remember this! For a long time I removed all social media that was not completely necessary. I now use some apps like Snapchat and Instagram, but I use them sparingly, and not without purpose.

I really believe that if I had no screens at all in my life, recovery would look a lot different. I find it strange how people always mention the importance of having 0 orgasms, but then at the same time they are probably mindlessly scrolling through facebook and instagram, or watching series and movies with a lot of sex in them. For people wondering I still watch a movie every now and then, mostly with friends. Try to pick a suitable movie as well, and shut out stuff that you know you find sexual or arousing. I usually look away, or if I am alone I just skip a unexpected sex scene etc. Also IMDb parental guide can be helpful in the movie department.

I also want to mention that The Mandalorian is a series I have really enjoyed, and can recommend. Very rarely nowadays do you find a good series that doesnt use sex to sell, and this one is as good as it gets for people in our boat.

 

Just to chip in: I can also recommend Cupids Poison Arrow. It was a revelation. I haven't had sex in 5 years (I know... sad) but when I was back then, it did seem to have exactly the same effects afterwards in terms of symptoms as PMO. I wasn't sure at the time, but I then read CPA a year or two later, and it was like yeah, orgasm is a problem.

HOWEVER I would also say that I have had experiences where either edging without orgasm, or just getting aroused in my mind without acting on it for 20-30 minutes has at times induced exhaustion, brain-fog etc. Although I think orgasm is the most potentially damaging thing, arousal in itself can be a problem. Just my observation.

I watched a video on YouTube yesterday by a guy called Dr Kevin T McCauley... can't remember the name (and am staying off YouTube as much as possible so no link) but he talks about rebalancing the dopamine system in the brain from all sources of pleasure and anticipation of pleasure. He is coming at it as a doctor AND recovering drug addict, and doesn't cover porn or say that much about cognitive addiction, but basically he seems to be saying that all pleasurable experiences can be problematic for addicts, which is why addicts often swap one addiction for another, and only truly get over their addictions when they deal with all pleasurable, dopamine inducing behaviour. Grim!

 

Just wanted to reaffirm for everyone here with severe cases that resensitization comes in fits and starts. I've spent the last week or so finally being able to concentrate on a complex project that I want to get done. It is a software development project that requires intense focus and a sustained ability to problem solve and make creative decisions. Last week I felt like I was regaining my ability to grasp difficult concepts and to use them again in a productive and meaningful way. Not only that but I was able to do it for several hours at a time. I was able to fight through the fog and maintain my incentive without having the rebound lethargy and mental confusion that has been a hallmark of my life in PAWS. I wasn't at 100%, but it was more like being happy to be at at 80% instead of the miserable 20% that I've become accustomed to.

Now starting yesterday, it feels like I'm right back at 20% power. I have no motivation, I can't organize ideas in my head, and I can't follow through on what I'm doing. There was no relapse or anything, it's just my brain having to recover from the last week of sustained effort. It's like I'm in this cycle now where I have to just wait and build up some dopamine credits in my brain before I can work on something in a meaningful way. Then, if I over-spend my credits my brain retaliates and I have to endure a period of what feels like complete mental setback.

So even though I feel like shit today it is encouraging to see some period of relative progress. I have been in such a deficit for so long that any signs of life are welcomed. I'm hoping that I am leaving the stage of 24/7 misery and entering a stage where there are at least windows of clarity like others have spoken of. It's easier to deal with the suck if you at least know that some level of reprieve is around the corner.

 

how many days are you on?