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P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. I fully agree with you that you need to quit porn and tough out a difficult period but what I'm saying is I have seen so many people tough it out for years and nothing happens, think of it more as me suggesting there's a missing piece to the puzzle than just abstinence if you want to regain your mental health and sex life. I was one of these people, it was just endless streaks, my longest being nearly a year, until I stopped paying attention to nofap and coming on the forums I couldn't recover, the mind is extremely powerful and it can lock your brain, you read about impotence and misery every day so that's where your psyiology will stay, I had to put it all behind me in every sense. Its not just me saying these things, many people have said the same shit.

    I hope that explains it a little better?
     
  2. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    Ok, that makes more sense - I do see changes myself, but they take longer to happen the older I get. After 100+ days, there are definite improvements for me, but they are slow in coming. Towards the end of your one year streak, did you not see any changes?

    These days I tend to avoid too much of the misery on Nofap by just checking this thread, and doing my journal, so maybe I am a bit detached from what some people are experiencing or getting from other people. I know it can be depressing if you immerse yourself in it, and it is healthy to take a break from it.

    You have to bear in mind that although the mind is powerful, people can get super defensive about any implication that they may be to blame for problems that they may have, even if it is sub-conscious. I'm not saying that that's what you're doing, but that may be how it could be interpreted? I've seen it happen before with other issues. It's a tricky area to navigate.
     
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  3. I saw absolutely no benefit to my reboots, I'm aware that I was benefiting but I was in such a slump mentally that it was halting any progress. I blamed everything wrong in my life on PAWS and just adopted this wait it out mentality when really what I needed to be doing is just moving on with my life and letting it go (while staying off porn obviously)
     
  4. Different Built

    Different Built Fapstronaut

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    What would be best for me to do I was addicted for 3 years and am on day 113 still feeling no motivation and pleasure etc. ?
     
  5. DerJogge

    DerJogge Fapstronaut

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    I don't think Big Lebowski did a "clean" reboot for two years. He said he was still smoking and drinking coffee while rebooting and eventually leaving it behind. I don't think he is representive for a clean two year reboot without discrediting his effort.

    But yes let's agree that we disagree on certain topics and I'm apologizing for getting passive-agressiv at some point. As I said my restistance to bullshit was unusually low the last days and there was this vibe floating around that PAWS is mostly psychosomatic and made up and I just wanted to make clear that this is not true.

    Just so you understand me right. I'm not trying to promote the idea of doing nothing and just trusting into abstinence. I just feel like that most of the measures one can take are just supporting the recovery while recovering itself happens in the brain on its own. Those measures can be anything from exercise, meditation, right diet, new hobbies, new surroundings, healthy habits, etc.
     
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  6. Without knowing your life man it's so difficult to advise you on what to do on a daily basis. All I can tell you is what helped me.

    Accept that you are going to be okay, move on from it and put it behind you, do nofap effortlessly, you need to just let go of this personality you have built up around nofap, stop waiting for the benefits to come and they will come, there's also a possibility that many of your issues aren't entirely to blame on porn withdrawals but again I don't know you so it's very difficult to say. I firmly believe the nofap personality and forum browsing prevents many people recovering.

    A book called "you are the placebo" by Joe diapenza really fucking helped me.

    I know this probably doesn't help much in terms of advice but it's all I've got for you.
     
  7. It's just kind of nuts to me that you think because he was smoking and drinking coffee during parts of his no relapse abstinence that it would slow him down to the point that even at 2 years he wasn't recovered. This just doesn't make sense.

    I smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol occasionally and I still recovered, back in the day there were plenty of stoners that made a full recovery. The problem with this forum is this puritanical mindset where every waking moment and action is geared towards a successful reebot when in reality it actually makes people obsessive and miserable. I'm not saying you personally have a puritanical mindset but it is a theme on here.

    I honestly think for alot of people the recovery doesn't happen on its own, I think they get themselves into such a fucking rut mentally that they just cannot get out of it and the brain gets tied up in knots. Take these guys we spoke about that are in such a bad way that there life goes on hold, every waking moment is consumed towards getting better and they just stay indoors all day, avoiding friends etc then of course they will not have a sex drive or erections, a perfectly healthy person would experience this in the same circumstances.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2021
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  8. DerJogge

    DerJogge Fapstronaut

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    Just because you smoke and drink on an occasional base doesn’t mean that everyone else handles alcohol and cigarettes the same way you do. Smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee every day is an addiction for most of the people. I was a smoking half a pack for several years and if I still would be smoking then there would be be no chance for recovery as smoking cigarettes has brutal effects on my mental and physical health. True recovery can only happen if you leave all your addictions behind. If you manage to keep it to a drink and cigarette here and there then this is no addiction for you and thus not hindering YOU but that doesn’t mean that everyone else deals with the same reality. I don’t know why it’s so difficult for you to understand that your subjective reality doesn’t translate onto everyone else. You are drawing the same logical conclusions from completely different starting points.

    And there might be dozens of stoner that recovered - I don’t even want to doubt that. Maybe weed wasn’t their problem in the first place. For me weed was my favourite and most used drug and for me it’s part of the problem. Again you are just drawing a wrong conclusion: some people recovered from PMO although they smoked weed -> it’s okay to smoke a joint here and there for everyone.

    Don’t you see that those conclusions aren’t working as everyone else constitution is different?
     
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  9. gangstaLjos

    gangstaLjos Fapstronaut

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    Elaborate, my man. We need all the success stories we can get.
     
  10. "true recovery can only happen if you leave all your addictions behind" - is an example of a puritanical mindset, the all of nothing mentality that I don't think helps people, it just reinforces this idea that porn addiction is this absolute beast that's up there with benzo withdrawal and it must be beaten with a strict army like regiment of health. I understand this is the way you approach it because we have a fundamentally different belief in the whole process, it goes against my personal opinion of what is needed to get better.

    Yeah you are right for pointing out that everyone is different and substances effect people different so my bad for that but I wasn't talking about it in term of a guy on a 2 or 3 month reboot, we are talking about a guy that did 2 years here, even if I concede that smoking and coffee would slow him down it would not be to the point where he sees little change after 2 years. If we were talking about cocaine I'd be in full agreement.

    I believe he did well over a year without smoking cigarettes during his reeboot.

    I don't mean this in an insulting way I promise but it really feels like you're clutching at straws because you don't know how somome can go 2 years clean and still not be recovered, I feel it subconsciously makes you worried so you are jumping at irrational explanations.

    (again, I'm not being rude or trying to insult you)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2021
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  11. Different Built

    Different Built Fapstronaut

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    Thanks man
     
  12. UWSDave

    UWSDave Fapstronaut

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    One thing I think this whole discussion is illustrating is the *dire* need for real scientific studies on the PAWS phenomenon. As I’ve struggled with my symptoms I’ve gone down a lot of rabbit holes reading about various kinds of chronic illness, and I’ve noticed that almost all of them - even relatively poorly understood conditions like chronic fatigue syndrome - have patient advocacy groups, organizers spreading awareness, sympathetic doctors and researchers trying to understand the problem. We have none of that. And as valuable as it is to have anonymous support groups, from which I know I and many others have benefited tremendously, this is ultimately never going to be enough. What is our strategy for getting medical researchers interested in this problem? Obviously the shame and stigma around PMO complicates the matter of “raising awareness,” but I wish we had more discussion about how to start moving in that direction.
     
    Dave G 123 likes this.
  13. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Hi guys, just an update from me.

    Yes i have relapsed since my 16 month streak and after which i decided to take medication to see if it would help my recovery. Recovery for me was working but just taking too long and my symptoms have simply been to debilitating for me to think about recovering for another 2 years after my relapse.

    Keep in mind i am no doctor and i tried my very best to recovery without the use of medication. This was my last resort. I have been taking SSRIs over the past 7 weeks and i have noticed that my symptoms are not as bad. Im at least able to be more social and i have a little more motivation. Also im not as fatigued as i was before. I think in general they have lowered the stress on my body enough so that i could function. Symptoms are still there and im guessing recovery will still be the same, but at least it isnt as tough for me anymore.

    Again i would use this as a last resort like i did and if you're not sure go and see a doctor.

    Hope all is well
     
  14. Which ssri are you taking out of interest?
     
  15. Big Lebowski

    Big Lebowski Fapstronaut

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    Whats happening fellas, I've since done a whole 180 on PAWS and withdrawal. I believe symptoms were due to stress, depression and most notably with me that I've been experiencing for a while, hormones being out of whack. Porn was just the painstakingly obvious thing I was using that took the blame and undeniably brought some issues itself. But my journey is coming to an end now and I'm starting to get somewhere. Go and have a full check up if you can too see if things are operating all good.
     
  16. Awesome. Glad you're well mate.

    Can you go into detail on which hormones were off and what you did to start feeling better?
     
  17. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    This debate always seems so pointless and dangerous. I've commented so many times - if you've been through PAWS, recovered, and then had to fix other underlying issues, that doesn't in anyway mean that PAWS wasn't real, just that you had other causal issues.

    In regards to blood tests, I had mine done 3 years ago before NoFap and my testosterone was 7mgl that of a 80 year old man, they suggested HRT. That was one of the catalysts for NoFap for me, and stopping cocaine :)

    I've outlined before, people are probably experience multiple causal factors to why they feel like shit, for some people perhaps sexuality induced dopamine disorder (SIDD) causing PAWS was only one of the underlying factors, and beneath this they had other biological issues.

    I feel as though I have a ton of data during my recovery now, from normal sex, to dating, to full monk mode. I also have constant brain pressure that changes in direct correlation with any SIDD activity.

    There is no question in my mind that PAWS from SIDD is 100% my only factor for my constant brain pressure and PAWS symptoms. And it is a binary equation: engage SIDD activity and start to feel like shit and symptoms worsen, or abstain from SIDD and PAWS gets better. Who can argue against this?

    Im currently on a monk mode streak and again starting to feel good, I expect to fully recover at some point this year, and will document my experience and thoughts for others.
     
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  18. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    I've been thinking the same thing re the need for research, and advocacy.

    But are you going to volunteer to take the shitstorm that would follow if you personally went public about this? I've thought about it for some time, and decided that I'm not up for it, at least the public facing advocacy side, for pretty obvious reasons. I've been an advocate for a chronic health condition in the past, been on demonstrations, risked arrest etc - it's a brutal business, and that was when a lot of people were on my side to begin with. Nofap to most people is an easy group to dismiss, hate and ridicule, even if we're the ones who are being the most honest about the issues related to PMO, and trying to improve people's lives - because lets face it, most people use porn regularly, and a fair number of them will be "problem users", and a fair amount of them will be suffering some degree of PAWS. This is only going to get worse globally as technology becomes more sophisticated and ubiquitous.

    If I do / can get involved in this in any way, it would be as a researcher (social scientist) trying to uncover the full extent of the problem - a low key academic, and nothing more than that. But that may not be possible for me for all sorts of reasons, not least financial.

    Anyone else out there thinking of taking up the cause? Neurologists, MDs, psychologists, or anyone who's just good at talking?
     
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  19. sikreodds97

    sikreodds97 Fapstronaut

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    Absolutely ridicioulous. So paws from all other drug addictions is "fake" too? Thousands of PAWS stories from heroin, cocaine, weed, and other gaba drugs is fake? The doctors who says that when we abuse our gaba system it can take 1-3 years to feel better in extreme cases are fake too? And of course the many paws success stories there are on this forum and on reddit must be fake too right? People who get waves and windows. I think you dont know how the neurological brain works and i urge you to do some research on that. Instead of coming on here and telling people in deep depression and anxiety who have abused their brains with porn and cumming 6 times a day that its all in their head. I know people in my life who was extreme weed abusers who quit and it took 2-3 years of hell for their brain to heal. You have your theory and its probably because of your story who i dont know about but i can tell. I have had periods of time where i put paws out of my head and forgot about it for 6 months and kept being on Nofap and i was still in withdrawal with these windows and waves of symptoms from years of pornography use since i was a kid.
     
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  20. sikreodds97

    sikreodds97 Fapstronaut

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    Just gone through the guys history. He is still sometimes masturbating and having sex with girls (ejaculation=huge dopamine and serotonin release) He is still feeling slightly depressed and is defiently not healed. This makes a lot of sense now. A person who didnt have a proper 2-3 hard mode streak and never fully recovered and now wont accept it and try to psyche his way out of it. He said he masturbated 10 times a day in his prime and used class A drugs. His brain obviously needs a whole fuck lot of recovery to heal. Just because you didnt put in the work dont dismiss basic neuro science :D
     
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