P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

I'm guessing either English isn't your first language or you are just a bit simple.

From what I can see, I have been around alot longer than you.

I did streaks of 1 year, multiple 6 months and multiple 4 months.

I never said PAWS from porn is not real, I never said PAWS from drugs is not real. I have had PAWS from both porn and drugs, I'm probably far more familiar with it than you.

I am not masturbating, I am not watching porn, please show me where I said I still watch porn and masturbate? I never said this, you are literally talking out of your ass. You are hysterical.

And yes I have had sex on 3 different occasions since I recovered, so what? What's the issue? Am I supposed to stay abstinent forever to build up my dopamine reserves or something like a camel? Someone please tell me again how this is not a cult.

I haven't used drugs for probably close to 2 years now, I don't really count the time because I do not care.

I am fully recovered, I have been recovered for over a year now, I suggest you go back and read everything I said again instead of sitting there reading things that I have not said.


Use your brain, I feel like I'm talking to someone that is mentally challenged.

To everyone else on here reading this, this guy is an example of the type of absolute lunatic that I have been speaking about. He is a high priest in the church of nofap and he will not tolerate descent, he must serve his 2 to 3 years of abstinence in order to reach the promised land of dopamine and boners because it said so on a website somewhere, anyone who does not do at least 2 years of nofap and live on a diet free of impurities is a heretic and shall be burned at sunrise.

 

I had this discussion with him already and for now I think it’s better to just leave him alone and ignore him if you disagree with him. I’m not saying this in an ignorant way but I am not able to grasp what his actual standpoint really is. He says he doesn’t mean things like we understand it but I don’t seem to be the only one that understands him wrong. So there is either a communication problem on BOTH sides or he is backpaddling.

Recover will come to those that manage to set themselves free from addiction and I’m 100% sure PAWS will leave if you are consistent and patient with your reboot.

 

You said "I dont believe paws can last for more than 6 months". Therefore you dont believe in paws, period. If you look at 95 percent of people with paws the improvement comes after 1-2 years and than there are those who are unlucky and go 3 years sometimes more. You said you were clean in terms of porn, therefor i assume you still jack off which is absolutely suicide if you have been doing that for 10 times a day in the past. Also you are extremely rude and passive aggressive and want to take discussions, very very low vibe. A person who is healed and happy would never ever go on the way you do. The discussions you initiate with people are pointless, if people here believe that it can take 2-3 years to heal from a massive PMO addiction than why come on this thread and say the completely oppissite while acting the way you do? And then you act surprised when you get hated on and bash it off with saying "This thing has turned into a fucking cult blah blah blah". Its laughable dude. If you really were happy and healed you would never in the weirdest world go on like that. You should try and read what people feel like when they get their brain back in balance. Positive, loving, understanding, happy, kind. You are showing none of those traits. A big big ego problem man.

 

You are totally right brother.

 

Mate there is not a communication problem on my side, I've been back on the forum for 2 days and in that time I've explained my position in every single way I can think of, I have deliberately chosen my words as carefully as I possibly can so that people can easily understand, the problem is that you and this other guy have tunnel vision, as soon as someone says something outside of the nofap recovery scripture then your mind just can't seem to grasp it and you accuse me of saying things that I did not say.

Take this guy for example that's just blown up at me, he is accusing me of saying things that I did not say and is flat out lying about what I believe because he is angry and offended on what my opinions are, he said I still masturbate, watch porn and haven't recovered because his mind cannot understand that someone didn't need to go on 3 years of nofap to recover, if you actually added up all my streaks they would probably be well over 3 years, my longest solid streak was a year but the guy is literally talking to me like I'm some dipshit noob that had this smooth sailing recovery and found the whole thing easy when that couldn't be further from reality. Judging from his profile he is the newcomer to all this and he has been fully indoctrinated into the usual talking points of 3 years flatline blablabla benzo recovery comparisons blablablabla, I have a feeling his English isn't very good so maybe I'm being too harsh and there is a communication problem, doesn't feel like it though, feels like he is just anrgy that he's hearing different perspectives. This is what I mean when I say nofap has become cult like.

 

Please just leave him alone. I don’t like the vibe and energy he’s carrying in here either and you’re right: a person that would be recovered completely wouldn’t be behaving this way. He still has all the rights to post in here although I don’t understand his motives - so we need to get along.

 

I advise you to be careful with this type of drug man. They are only a temporary solution and you're messing with your neurotransmitters with them. Some people go through PAWS when they try to quit them. And since you experienced PAWS from PMO, you might experience PAWS from SSRIs too. I know because I quit in November 2018 and I still haven't recovered. You might be like me.

I don't like casting doubt on a lifeline you found. But I also feel compelled to give you a warning I never got.

 

I'm guessing you meant to quote the other guy and not me

Dude I can assure you I would not lie about my recovery, I spent years on several different nofap forums, I was in the same position as you guys, I do not take this shit lightly, I am not 95% recovered, I am 100% recovered. Why would I actually lie about it? Just to feel good about myself? That's ridiculous.

I left this forum a year ago because I recovered, the only time I've logged in over the last year is when someone messages me. Shortly before I left a year ago I said I would come back in a year because I suspect everyone will still be in the same position unless they started taking a different approach, currently I am in lockdown so I decided to log back in and post (like I said I would a year ago)

I am only rude when people are rude to me first, I've only tried to be polite and tell people how I got better.

I see no further point sticking around, all it is going to do is create drama and that helps no one. My theory's and recovery is logged in this thread so there's nothing more for me to add, it also brings up alot of bad memories when I spend any time on this forum so it's also better for me to not remain here, I never intended to come back for more than 1 or 2 days anyway.

I apologise for any bad feelings between us and I should of done better to avoid arguing.

Maybe I'll come back in another year to see how everyone is, who's knows.

All the best to everyone on here. Genuinely hope things start to improve for all of you.

 

I'm curious what people's thoughts are on this. I haven't read this thread in its entirety, so apologies if any of this has been covered. Does anyone think that wet dreams could possibly be attributed to some of the longer recovery times seen in this thread? I have been on several long hard mode streaks and not seen many benefits - but I was having wet dreams every couple of days / weeks. My current streak (not a long one unfortunately) is at 41 days. I felt like shit for the first several weeks because I was getting wet dreams on average every four days, but recently, I haven't had one in two weeks, and am starting to feel pretty good.

Might be worth mentioning that I align with the semen retention school of thought vs common nofap. Definitely not trying to discount anyone's experiences here, just curious if people here have frequent wet dreams and this could be contributing to the feeling of PAWS. Thanks for any info!

 

Me personally, Ive gone months without wet dreams - still felt horrible.

 

Yo @Don Quixote--I think you're forgetting what it was like to be in the throes of true-blue PAWs. There are certain times when it's just about survival. The last thing on my mind when I'm really fucked up is to try and do some breathing exercise or take a supplement stack or whatever (not saying this is your advice, but you get the idea).

I have absolutely no fear of getting stuck in any kind of recovery mindset. When I'm feeling good I'm out doing shit and having fun. That's never been a problem for me. So as DerJogge said, people need to quit projecting their own experiences onto their supposed "hard truths about recovery". Speak in "I" statements folks. When I was younger I used to spew out advice on reddit and other forums about how to beat this thing, and now that I'm older I realize that I was really just talking to myself. That's usually how it goes. Most people's advice is very much based on personal experience and applies more to them than to anyone else.

It's good to use other people's experiences as guideposts for our own lives, but don't deify anyone in this world. The one thing we all need to do is to not relapse. I think we can all agree on that. Whatever comes after is personal, it seems. It's nice to read about other people's successes because it gives us hope, but yeah.

@Ezpz sorry you relapsed my man. That must be a tough pill to swallow. I feel for you.

As for me, I'm doing quite shitty today, and have been for the past 6 days. I'm in the darkest portion of this current cycle. I've lost a good deal of optimism about the length of time this process is going to take, but what can you do. Things will swing back around.

I'm 14.5 months into this process. I expect it'll take ~2 years for me to feel human again, and another year for me to get back to something nearing full strength. But I'm really excited for what life will be like when I don't have these shit days. And when I say shit days I mean shit days. I just don't want to be around people. Activities don't excite me. Youtube barely holds my attention. Those are the cards that I've been dealt. And it's up to me to get out of it, which, for now, means laying in wait until the sun returns. At least COVID is still going on and I'm not missing out on a bunch of fun shit.

 

Thank you for the advice my friend. For me they were a last resort. I have had these symptoms for 7 years or so now and for me 2 years of paws again is simply not an option. If i can get my life on the right track then hopefully my PMO addiction will fizzle away and to do that i need to be able to function. I am going through initial withdrawals again, but the medication is helping me through them. Im also sleeping a lot better with less fatigue during the day and i can at least talk to people easier. The reason i went on them is basically after i relapsed after 16 months. It is absolutely heart breaking when you have put so much effort in to being abstinent and then you relapse after such a significant amount of time, bringing you basically back to square 1.

Again i am absolutely not recommending anything here, im just letting people know what is helping me through. If you can do this without medication then 100% do so. For me i have reached the absolute limit of my suffering and had to try something.

 

It is indeed a tough pill to swallow. But what is to be done but move forward?

 

Interesting. Thanks for the response, I figured some people may have experienced that.

 

Well said @Don Quixote !

 

I appreciate every single person that comes back and gives insight to the life after PAWS and I highly appreciate every post of you Don. They often dragged me out of the deepest places and corners of my consciousness and just a few weeks ago I stumbled upon a post of you at the 15 month mark where you described all the symptoms you still had and this was one of the points I were I knew I will recover because you bounced back from that place just a few months after. I'm thankful for any bit of information that helps us to stay on course and I hope you will come back to this "swampy cesspool of passive aggressive negativity" in the future.

There is a big difference coming into this thread, where people have to go through their own personal hell of suffering, and spitting around a negative attitude of "I know it all and way better then you" and you coming in here respectfully reporting from your current life and how you see things now. With all respect, it seems like you forgot about the tremendous suffering many of us here have to go through and you also went through. It's a complete normal reaction from our brain that it's forget about memories that doesn't benefit us in any way - especially if those memories are a reflecting a very painful and traumatic period of time.

If you are fighting in the trenches doing everything to survive the war and then there is a guy coming that says "hey guys there is no war, just go home and the war is over" then this seems like a big joke to you. The war is over when it's over. But my war isn't over yet and shells are striking down every other day with a few days of fire pause in between. I personally don't need a guy running around the trenches bloating his personal subjective truth into everyones faces. And this is what he was doing: he translated his very own subjective reality onto everyone else and sold it like it he knows it all. He smokes and drinks now and then and feels fine and thus calls me being nuts for thinking that smoking and drinking could hinder a PAWS recovery process. He said so many things that aren't true and I think there is a certain responsibility involved when talking about such serious things. I was a quiet reader of this sub for a good amount of time and sometimes I read a comment that was also very subjective-based but I couldn't put it into perspective back then because my cognitive functions were so bad. Such comments caused a tremendous amount of anxiety and worrying inside me whether I'm on the wrong path and if this really is the way to go BUT 1-2 comments later there were several people rationalizing the comment and calling it for bullshit. There are many people in here that go on a path of uncertainty and trusting into the paths of others without any scientific backup or official guidance.

We transfer most of our knowledge of PAWS from drug related PAWS and after going through this shit for about 15 months now I know that PAWS from PMO is 100% real and legit as my symptoms as a overall substance-addict mixed with being a PMO-addict are literally the same as people that only suffer from PMO withdrawal. And if I learned one thing from all those drug PAWS recovery programs, youtube videos, pdf-documents that I consumed in the first year of my recovery then being aware about PAWS is one of the most important things. BEING AWARE of PAWS helps you to put those bad days into perspective and to acknowledge when you overreact onto something because you emotional stress response is hijacked. It takes away the guilt from you that you as a person are doing something wrong. So many times I felt guilty about me not being able to respond properly. Since I know about PAWS I don't judge myself if I'm having 4 unproductive days in a row. And then this guy comes around the corner and tell people to just forget about noFap, PAWS and just go on living and they will be fine. He talks about PAWS being over after 6 months and everything after that is just the nervous-system overreacting. Don't you see how dangerous this is for a person that knows very little about PAWS and who just wants to informs himself and reads subjective generated all mighty truths from whysolong. What if someone buys into all the things he is saying. "cigarettes and drinking won't delay your recovery process this long" BUT what if it delays or even blocks total recovery completely?! What if a guy that stumbled onto this thread reads all of it and his left-over-addictive mind picks up this trail and talks himself into smoking a cigarette here and there which prevents the persons recovery completely and the person thus has to go through several years of personal hell again because he bought into the subjective experience of whysolong. I know this example might be exagerating but if you throw around so many "facts" then a person who doesn't know very well might even believe what he says. This is the main reason I constantly talked against him and tried to put this "facts" into perspective because I want to leave hints for people coming after us that don't know yet. He talks shit about "bro-science" but delivers nothing else then "bro-science" by himself.

I don't have a ego-problem and argue with a stranger out of pure fun because I like to see myself being more right then another person. But this guy does. It doesn't matter if you want to see that or not but I can sense his vibe and attitude. I went back into last year january to check his other posts as he suggested and stumbled by accident on the exact same argument we currently have. Back then he showed more of his true face. I could cite things that are just ridiclious. He went around talked about how much he knew about neuroscience, recovery, addiction, etc. and how he knows more then everyone else. It's like this cock-measuring-mentatility of some people that just want to be right over others while wraping their words into gift-paper and then acting all offensive when you speak up agains it which them causes them to backpaddle and act all nice.

Then there is also this constant implication onto how everyone is shaping its own recovery.
There is this constant illusional implication that most of us are just laying around in bed all day waiting for the magic day while bathing in our own self-indulgent misery and victim mentality. Yes, THERE are days where I can't do more then laying in my bed after getting my chores done and just relax and wait for the day to be over because I'm so impaired by symptoms. But on every other day most of us are doing our very best to look forward while knowing that this won't be forever. If my fight or flight calms down for a few days then I always get a taste of what life after PAWS could feel like and it's those days that I knew that it's not my own fault or false mindset that brings me back into those dark places. I don't know why but this current implication of "get your mind straight" triggers me a lot, because mostly I know that it's not true. I'm not dwelling in my symptoms 24/7 and think about it every woken second and I think this mentality hurts you more then it benefits you. If you constantly have to force your mindset into a certain mentality and constantly adjust your thought so that they project into your neurotransmitter-composition to generate feel-well-hormones then your happiness and well-being doesn't comes from within but is rather forced on from outside. True recovery and happiness comes from within and I don't mean from the speaking mind. The speaking mind is just one part of your whole totality as a person.

I don't know why you picked such harsh words against us. This thread is mostly in harmony and full of understanding. We all have to carry a big package and I'm sure everyone appreciates people coming here and trying to help us. @MeTP presented his ideas very well and I love his thread/guide he created - I first was skeptical but he cleared the misunderstanding by delivering a detailed explanation where you directly sense that it actually arrives out of compassion and helpfulness. I don't agree with everything he says but there are a lot of things that make sense. Him and whysolong aren't that far from each other, neither are you. I don't have any negative feelings against you or MeTP because you always were respectful and never forced your personal opinion onto others but I find it rather strange that you are speaking in this manner to all of us that doesn't look like you at all and it's actually quite sad to be honest.

 

Forgive me if Im mistaken, but all whysolong implied and alluded that in order to heal, we all just have to leave this forum and go about our life? In short that was all it was, right?
In that case I should have healed along time ago, when my life consisted of tough semi-pro soccer, lifting, working/studying... I did all of ''life'', but never healed. I never lurked around here or reddit. I went about with my life, not ever considering PAWS or anything, but the truth was that the symptoms was there all along. But okay, lets all leave this forum, continue our chores and be healed next week. I mean, we all want that to be the truth - why would we fight to stay in this for years? Because we've been consumed by this ''cult''? Okay.

 

I think the truth is that there is a threshold that we all have to cross where we move from a passive healing phase and into a more active approach. That makes perfect sense. Ultimately, everyone of us has to put all of this in the past and doing that is going to involve emotional discomfort while you retrain your brain to no longer engage in avoidance behaviors. The problem is that avoidance behaviors are necessary when your nervous system is overloaded or your brain is incapable of doing what is expected of it. If simple exposure therapy worked I would have healed long ago. I routinely engage in activities that I consider normal like biking, trying to do computer work, spending time with family, playing guitar, etc... but what I can't change is the cognitive dysfunction and anhedonia.

For me, getting on with my life would mean waking up everyday enthused about whatever project I was working on. I used to be a successful software designer who was known for being overachieving and highly competent. I took my problem solving skills, attention span, and eternal motivation completely for granted. I considered all of it a birth right. I certainly didn't need a pep talk or any special coping skillset to get me going in the morning. Now, my attention span and working memory are so shot that I can hardly solve problems at all, much less dedicate to something super challenging. Before I can even fake my way through getting on with my life, at least in a sustained way, I absolutely need a baseline level of competence to return so that I can even engage in the struggle.

I know for sure that when my PAWS symptoms are severe, resistance is futile. The fatigue I experience is like nothing I ever experienced in my life prior to PAWS. It's worse than being tired, it feels like being drugged. I also get loud tinnitus, visual snow, and mental confusion when symptoms are amplified. To me fighting it feels as useful as running on a broken leg. I think the primary goal of early healing is simply to regain a baseline level of functioning so that exposing yourself to discomfort doesn't result in catastrophic failure. You have to have a minimum level of reliable frontal functioning in order to actually get on with things. I can see the argument for pushing through emotional discomfort in an effort to become stronger and more resilient. That's all fine and good because that's pretty much what personal growth is. But in my experience cognitive deficits can't be overcome by willpower alone, at least not for very long.

While I enjoy reading everyone's perspective, so far I have seen nothing that dissuades me from the notion that time and distance from the addiction is the primary factor in recovering from any form of PAWS. That doesn't mean giving up and spending all your time doing nothing. But it does mean accepting your current limitations and living as best you can. Accepting PAWS takes time but it is important because it removes the obsessive "what's wrong with me?" dialog which is so harmful. Spending time on this board seeking affirmation that others are experiencing the same thing you are is fine and healthy if it hardens your resolve to beat the addiction forever. That's what a support system is. I think commiserating with people in the same situation as you is helpful if it hastens acceptance of the situation you are in and helps you get through a rough patch. Of course this board should mostly be used to further that end. Engaging in as much life-affirming activity as you can is just as important as avoiding PMO. I also agree that people can get into an institutionalized mindset and everyone should evaluate what they're doing and make sure that that isn't what's happening to them. Most people can probably admit to themselves when this is happening. When you reach a point where it's plausible to you that your issues are mostly self imposed, then they probably are.

I think the two camps in the current debate are looking at recovery from opposite sides of that threshold I mentioned earlier. The people here emphasizing the importance of the "just move on" mindset have either healed enough through time and distance that they can once again start engaging more actively in their lives without being overwhelmed, or they were never non-functional to begin with. I don't think it is fair or honest to imply that someone who has recovered fully could have done so quicker if they had just ignored this site sooner. I think that devalues the process they had to go through to arrive at the point where they could move on. It's also not fair to imply that people who are obviously miserable are only that way because they want to be.

On the other side, the people who are still with heavy symptoms are quick to interpret all behavioral advise as a way to cast doubt on the legitimacy of their plight. Or to shame them for not being better sooner. But I have no doubt that everyone posting here (except obvious trolls) have good intentions. Thank you @Don Quixote, @MeTP ,and @whysolong for coming in periodically and reminding us all that there is an end in sight.

I'm just glad to see the conversation deteriorate and have it not be my fault

 

I remember reading a post from not too long ago where Don said that he didn't even feel like a person until month 20, so I don't really understand the thought process. Yes, he's been helpful to this community, but I would be where I'm at with or without him, so I have no qualms with him losing his mind on this forum--it makes what he says have less value, immediately. And the idea that I am self-pitying is further delegitimized, though I never needed anyone other than my own self to realize that I am actually quite strong.


Bottom line: If we could just choose to be alright then how in the fuck did we arrive at this stupid online forum talking about porn addiction? Who actively chooses that? It took me years to figure out that my symptoms were related to PAWs and not some mental illness, and even longer to find a couple of people online who are going through the same shit. It's really, really nice to know that other people are experiencing the same shit. And when people come on here to delegitimize our experiences, we, rightfully, get defensive.

As I said before, the ignore button is key.

 

This is the truth. It's so sad no doctor or shrink ever asked me about porn addiction as I barraged them with my progressively worsening mental symptoms over the years. It's the most god awful disease where there's nowhere you can go to get a formal diagnosis. That's the thing that makes me the most mad because all of it is imminently knowable by the medical community. Instead, you literally have to figure things out on your own. Your input is always welcome here. People need to KNOW that it will get better. Your posts have probably given hope to many people on the verge of suicide because you have such a gift for communicating. Keep checking in and sharing your thoughts.