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Star Trek Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Jun 17, 2021.

  1. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    Nah, Sisko is too based to be part of such degeneracy.
     
  2. True. The only reminder we have of Voyager's resources getting depleted is a few episodes starting with the premise of that they're looking for a new source of deuterium. That's literally it. In fact, it suggested that everything the ship needed ran from deuterium. Which is fine with me as a concept, to consolidate everything the ship needs for fuel into one source, but it did backfire with the reminder that the show was, again, too safe.

    That's a good way to put it. I was thinking that the Borg could even threaten the Q, but this would only be another issue of power creep, as you said. And since the Q are supposed to be, to quote Janeway: "Self anoited guardians of the universe", messing with the Borg would be pretty anti-guardian of them. However, because the Borg are, to paraphrase from the translator character on Voyager (the guy with the huge head who lured the Voyager crew onto his ship, disguised as an experimental Starfleet ship), the Borg was basically the equivalent of a storm that destroyed anything in its path, should they wanted it. For the sake of conversation, it makes me wonder why the Q didn't just snap their fingers and get rid of them. Obviously, from a writer's perspective, you can't just get rid of the Borg. But what would it be from a Q's? :emoji_confused: It's not as if the Borg are natural. They're not even technically a species.

    Hm... well, I don't see how this virus would infect Voyager, considering Voyager wouldn't have a reason to come into contact with Borg drones nor why Voyager would want to cure it. Not unless we combine this concept with the episode Dark Frontier where they decide to raid a Borg vessel to get a transwarp coil so they can pass through their space much faster. Then they would have no idea there's a virus affecting the ship and say, Harry Kim can end up getting attacked by a drone, similar to how 8472 attacked him, and he contracts the virus, forcing Voyager into said moral dilemma. The Doctor, like in Scorpion when he figured out a way to modify Borg nanoprobes to fight off 8472's infection (another overpowered example, not only do they have immense strength, but their cells can eat you alive), can figure out a way to fight off this virus you propose.

    But this raises another issue with Scorpion, something @Vorlon mentioned. In all the Collective's acquired knowledge that they've been collecting supposedly for centuries since the Borg's origins, they couldn't figure out a way to assimilate or destroy 8472, but one Starfleet holographic Doctor did? The heck? So in my example, how did the Collective not figure out a way to cure this virus?

    I know we're not actually going to try to rewrite Voyager here, but this definitely highlights a writing problem in the episodes. Which, don't get me wrong, Scorpion parts 1 and 2 (especially 1) are among my favorite Star Trek episodes. But... until this thread, I never thought about just how stupidly strong 8472 is.

    Will reply to more later. This thread took off a bit more than I thought. :emoji_sweat_smile::emoji_joy:
     
  3. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    I can accept contrivances to an extent, but Voyager is built on a foundation of contrivances. The Borg suddenly becoming idiots is part of that, because if they weren't, the story wouldn't work. If the Borg we see in Q Who were the same Borg we see in every other episode, there is no way they would ever lose.

    Just a shame they went down the "The Federation has collapsed" route which is the most boring thing they could have done. While various shows have pushed the limits of this, at its core Trek is supposed to be hopeful, not edgy action shlock. If they had to go into the far future the twist should have been that the Federation encompasses the entire galaxy, and are made up of all the races we have seen in the past. In general though I just wanted a sequel series that takes place after Voyager that deals properly with what actually happened after DS9 and Voyager ended. I know Picard is set after, well I'll get to that.

    I have not watched it but I know enough about it to know I dont like it. I hate that the Federation in Picard has become insular and bigoted, even when it makes very little sense within the context of the universe. "Yeah but Star Trek deals with social issues, that is what it's doing now" you might say, but the whole point is that humanity has evolved beyond the kind of stuff Picard is about. I just dont buy the Federation treating the Romulans the way they did when it goes totally against their principles.

    Also the plot is a straight up rip-off of the plot of Mass Effect lol.

    The Borg are like Time Lords from Doctor Who, stuffy isolationists who dont like to interfere, instead choosing to observe.

    I do think the Borg were a species to begin with, I mean we see Borg children in Q Who. They just became more than that later.

    The virus idea was just to illustrate that I think they could have gone down a more interesting route than "This alien is super duper strong and has all these abilities that make them super cool and powerful." I'm not really attached to it in the sense I think they should have done it. Another possible idea would be about a Borg civil war being the main focus of the Borg stories, but that might be too similar to Doctor Who.
     
  4. Yeah Voyager is a lot more action oriented and a lot less intellectual than past series. None of the characters seem to have an appreciation for culture or history. They are just mostly action figures. I do miss that component of the past series. The episodes where you got to go on an adventure with da Vinci or Sherlock Holmes. Picard's passion for archaeology, his love of wine. RIker's jazz ensemble. Data learning to play the violin and taking care of his cat. The Las Vegas bar in DS9. Paris and Kim's exploration of 1930s sci-fi.

    I feel though that is a natural outcome of some of the trends that started in the past series, DS9 particularly. How when there was a war on the Federation compromised on some of it's core principals. Section 31 and all the nefarious stuff they did. The admiral at Starfleet who was trying to use the threat of the changelings to declare martial law on the Earth. How Sisko let Garek murder a Romulan ambassador to draw the Romulans into the war. The virus that was developed to kill changelings that eventually ended the war. Picard would not have approved of any of that. And yet it happened. What would the Federation do now that it had one the war by some very unethical means? Reassert it's values and try to pretend that none of that happened? That would be hypocrisy. They could try, but I don't think that would stop the spread of the corruption they had unleashed during the war. It's not a surprise for me then that decades in the future the Federation would become provincial, xenophobic and close-minded.

    I've never played but yeah, not the first time Star Trek has stolen ideas from other places. DS9 and Babylon 5 is a good example.
     
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  5. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    I get what you mean, but I also think that the previous shows handled this better. I can accept the idea of the Federation being criticised as some faux-utopian neoliberal society, because that basically is what it is, but it becoming as you say, "provincial, xenophobic and close-minded" is a bit too much for me. You can criticise the Federation or highlight they are flawed without completely changing them into something else. That, in essence, is my problem with every Trek show post-Enterprise, that they have a completely different feel to the previous shows and dont offer what those shows offered.

    The DS9/Babylon 5 argument is an interesting one. It's hard to know exactly how much the people who directly worked on DS9 knew of Babylon 5's development or if the interfering came from the executives. Regardless though the Mass Effect copying is way more egregious to me. A weird monument that gives people visions, a giant robot squid, etc these are all so weirdly specific that I cant believe they are just coincidences, especially seen as how Mass Effect has been a well-known property in the public eye for over a decade by now.
     
  6. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    I suppose if I wanted a sequel series (I dont, because in todays climate I dont trust anyone to do something I wouldn't hate) I would want something that is essentially another TNG "The Next Next Generation" if you will. Set it in the 25th or even 26th century, and have a new exploratory vessel that is pushing even further than the past ships ever did. The galaxy is enormous, so why not, most of the alpha quadrant is still unexplored by this point. Have Cardassians and Bajorans working together as Federation crewmen, have Klingons being on ships a regular occurrence. Based on the foundation of the old, create a new status quo with which to tell new stories that still have that classic idealistic feel of Trek. Dont just make generic action garbage.
     
    Mixolydian and Vorlon like this.
  7. What is your favorite ship in all of Star Trek? And you can base it on anything you like.

    I'm basing my favorite on design aesthetics: The Galaxy Class starship.
    To me, it is so pure in its design, like a single shape carved from a block of marble.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Ohhhh... that's why I didn't remember. I really don't like Jadzia's episodes. :emoji_sweat_smile:

    GETTING FROM THERE TO HERE...

    I thought it captured the idea of the show well. It was the start of a long and new road for the Federation and for the show, space seemed bigger and more dangerous for the Enterprise and humanity. I think the creators of the show chose the song very well.

    Hm... I can't disagree that Enterprise lacking in advanced technology (for Star Trek anyway) wasn't an interesting factor of the show, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The first 2 seasons were absolutely forgettable for me with the third and fourth becoming far more interesting (despite Archer acting like a thug in that part of the show) up to its confusing and abrupt ending. There was no need to kill Trip. I appreciate what Enterprise tried to do, but it really didn't land for me.

    I think that not only was it unnecessary, they explored it wrongly. In Enterprise, the main issue brought up with Data was not the "problem" of him being equal to humans, more that he struggled to understand the nature of being an individual and explored that and wanted to become more human-like. Rarely was the question of him being equal to humans brought up, at least, to my knowledge. For example, the episode Measure of a Man. It outright proves that Data is NOT like us at all (see Riker's argument), but the Captain's argument establishes that Data was more than just a machine, which is true. The Doctor, however, was essentially a preacher of holographic rights, often using appeals to emotion and attempting to state that there is no difference between light and flesh "as long as it feels real". It fell very flat to me, nothing but a lazy attempt to copy and capture why people found Data so compelling.

    That being said... the Doctor is my favorite Voyager character. Very well acted character, he often steals the show for me. Multiple episodes about him, episodes I don't even like (Latent Image, for example), I'll still watch anyway because his performance is just that well-done.

    The point is, he cheated. I never liked Paris for that.
     
  9. Oh I know, I just wanted to see if I could make the idea work. :p Still, I can't think of a good way to let Voyager pass through Borg space safely in an entertaining manner without nerfing the Borg a bit. Not only is the concept of a lone ship being thrust into an unknown part of the galaxy with no backup flawed, it strikes me as incredibly hard to write. :emoji_sweat_smile:
     
  10. brassknucks

    brassknucks Fapstronaut

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    Captain Kirk today would get metoo’d, lol.
     
    Anti-Hero likes this.
  11. brassknucks

    brassknucks Fapstronaut

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    Supergalactic womanizer.lol
     
  12. I just thought of another issue with 8472. Tell me what you guys think.

    If they were warp-capable with technology that out-classed everything even the Borg encountered... how the heck were they motivated to achieve such a feat? Necessity is often the mother of invention. Some of the things we know about 8472 is that they're the only species in their domain, that nothing else lives there. Why would they create weapons that can destroy planets and ships that can go to warp speeds, ships fast enough to keep up with a cube at said warp speeds, when there's supposedly nothing else in their domain that would cause them to create such technologies?

    In Enterprise, there's a part where Archer decides to head back to Earth to equip the Enterprise with phaser cannons because space was proving to be much more threatening than they thought. Should've had them anyway, but that aside, what gives? I could wait for an answer from the on-going Star Trek canon itself, but something tells me we never will get one.
     
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  13. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    Maybe not my favourite but I like the idea of asymmetrical ships, like the Breen cruiser.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Hadrian3

    Hadrian3 Fapstronaut

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    You talk about the series as if you watched them yesterday! How do you remember so much?
    I can't understand. How do you know you don't like Kirk if you haven't watched it? Anyway, I wouldn't miss Spock for such a reason.

    I enjoyed the Enterprise very much. Perhaps partly because it was the first Star Trek I've ever watched. It's very special for me as I got to see many things in Star Trek for the first time in that show. I remember In a mirror, Darkly was extremely funny for me.
     
  15. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    At first, it's vile. So bubbling and cloying and happy. But if you listen to it enough, you start to like it.

    Voyager would have worked better as a single season in a Star Trek anthology show, American Horror Story style. Just make Year of Hell the entire season and then have that be that.

    Very good point, I never thought of that.

    [​IMG]

    Through the power of big brain.
     
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  16. Anti-Hero

    Anti-Hero Fapstronaut

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    Just watched the second episode and had to take a screenshot.

    [​IMG]
     
    brassknucks likes this.
  17. I never said I haven't watched it. I said I won't watch it. I have seen a bit of TOS and Kirk just annoys the hell out of me and the show itself is too dated for me, too cheesy. Picard and Discovery are "Star Trek" shows I haven't seen and absolutely won't watch. The only scene I've seen in either show is the scene in Picard where Icheb is captured and mutilated until Seven puts him out of his misery. Which is another thing about that show, scenes showing excessive violence isn't really Star Trek. Star Trek is typically appropriate for children, but something even adults can enjoy, hence the term "family friendly". It's a great way to introduce children into the sci-fi genre. That's how I got into it, my parents started watching DS9 and Voyager while I was around and I thought it was so cool, I paid attention.

    It's true that Star Trek has no shortage of violent scenes, but they were always done very differently than seeing Icheb screaming for his life, being tortured in a way that's reminiscent of the Saw films.
     
  18. Honestly...? I'm struggling to disagree. I don't want to agree with that, but making Voyager's concept able to last 7 seasons and making at least some amount of sense just seems too impractical to do.
     
  19. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    I suffer from insomnia, and tend to have extremely weird dreams when I wake up in the early morning and then fall back to sleep. This morning I dreamt that the female Founder came to my house along with a squad of Jem'Hadar. For some reason I was desperate to talk to them. We sat in my garden and the Founder started gossiping about the other female Founders, and then I made a storm appear in the sky, and then I turned into the black tar monster that killed Tasha in TNG season 1. Then I woke up.
     
    Vorlon likes this.
  20. Dude!
     

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