I am about to give up...

Hard mode. He has to commit to no sexual stimuli. When my csat first told us to go 90 days no sex, not even seeing me dress/undress no sexual fantasy, nothing. We resisted. I was adamant that we were not going to do that. Lol. Until 4 month into working recovery my husband asked to do it. He was struggling and desperate. It was one of the hardest, best things we have done in his recovery work and our marriage. He had de when we married, got pied at 45. Had pied for 5 years. Still had it 4 months into recovery, off and on. But after 50 days on hard mode ( we didn’t make full 90) we had sex, then another 52 days hard mode. He is a 40+ year addict. As long as he stays clean he does not have any problems with erections at all. Clean means no porn, no masterbating, no fantasy. Otherwise he starts losing his erections.

 

I'm a PA, and draw some similarities between your PA's story and mine. Especially here

And on my SO's end, I see some similarities here

The rest of what you say is valid as well, fear of escalation, measures you've taken, etc. These underscore what I'd like to say, as encouragement and as actionable information.

I was raised in a conservative Christian home school house, used erotic fantasy to cope, and felt guilty about it. The church promised solutions that did not materialize, and that made me feel like a moral failure. It made me feel like quitting was not possible, and maybe I had to accept this addiction as part of myself the way some people accept homosexuality. However, there were a lot of things going on that I didn't know about. Undiagnosed and untreated ADHD left me with a dopamine deficiency, and I used erotic fantasy, aided by P, to access that dopamine. ADHD also made it difficult to impossible for me to listen and perform at a consistently acceptable level. I knew I had these shortcomings and I made steps to compensate, but these struggles still resulted in a lot of negative feedback in my formative years that created habits of self recrimination (my inability to quit a sinful and destructive behavior a strong part of that), which led to depression, which led to even lower performance, self medication (addiction escalation), recrimination, etc. It's possible your husband is caught in a similar negative feedback loop.

Notice none of this had anything to do with my SO. It's not your fault. I don't know if you're still involved with the church, but I know they like to say the husband's sexual health is the wife's responsibility and that's a lie. It's not biblical. That's bad doctrine. No real person could be available or beautiful or skilled or adventurous enough to compete with his sexual fantasies, because fantasy is serving parts of him that aren't even sexual. It's not sustainable, though. Neither of you are going to be happy as long as he uses fantasy to avoid and numb himself to reality. He's not going to spontaneously change, either.

I don't know if he has ADHD or depression or if he's willing to talk with a doctor about it, but it would be to his benefit to get those ruled out. If he does have those, meds will help. If not, he has no excuse. It's not that he hasn't been trying to quit, I wouldn't dare accuse him of that. I'll bet he's tried hard. It's that he hasn't been using good methods. It's hard to convince a therapist that porn is addictive, or of the extent of the deleterious effects of it, so it's hard to get good help to get rid of this specific addiction.

For your part, though, know that it won't get better on its own. He does have to change his mind about accepting this as part of his life, and he has to make the steps to get rid of it. The awful part about this, and most addictions, is that the SO experiences the raw pain of the damage more severely (at first) than the addict does, because the addict is numbed by the addiction. You can't make him change, so you might have to decide if you can tolerate a marriage where you are good friends but not sexually connected, or if you need to explore your options.

 

This thread is the best I’ve ever read on nofap. Please keep sharing. I’d love to keep hearing what’s working and also about the struggles. I’m in the middle of a battle with my wife right now. She has been wearing loungewear too wfh for a year, when she used to wear corporate dresses that looked good. We’re both struggling with it and the elephant in room is my PMO and her obesity.

These perspectives help so much.

 

Knowing my husband chose porn over me over and over again gave me zero incentive to take care of myself. It was easy to pack on weight so I could say to myself “ he doesn’t want sex because I’m fat,” rather than because he’s looking at porn. I was in that place for years, until I decided to put me first. I wasn’t obese but I was definitely out of shape after two babies and wallowing in self pity. Now I understand how incredibly important my gym time is for my mental health, the side benefits are weight control and more muscle!

 

When men talk to their "friends," it's a complex social situation. Men don't have many friends, that is, people they trust. Men have a lot of acquaintances and, if we're insecure, a lot of competition. Men talking about women is usually a competition, a display of prowess, bragging, chest beating, it isn't real. When men stop talking and act, it's about the dopamine. It's always about the dopamine.

That's why fantasy is attractive. We don't want a real relationship with these other women. That's the last thing we want. We can't regulate our emotions in the relationship we're in, and we trust this person to a moderate degree. Go off and cheat? Way more trouble than it's worth. P is attractive because you can open it whenever you want, and close it whenever you want, and feelings never play into it. Or if they do, it's in fantasy and the addict gets to manage those feelings.

Alcohol takes a warm piss all over your life, drugs are worse, gambling makes you poor. Gaming isn't so bad, I did gaming. Gaming didn't have a moral stigma either, so I did it in the open and my SO hated it, so I quit. It wasn't easy to quit that either, but the rush wasn't as big or reliable, so it was within my grasp. Fantasy, though, is a harder addiction to break.

 

There is a lot of resonating truth for me in the above. I had a very similar upbringing and religious influence in my background, which resulted in "compartmentalization" of porn. As a result it has taken me a lot longer to face this problem head-on, but there is no "halfway" option for me. Although my SO does not know of my recovery, I think she is definitely noticing a difference. The other day she looked at me and said "I don't even know who you are anymore" (in a positive context).

My heart goes out the OP- understanding the other side of this has really helped me in my recovery. Her SO can change, but he has to want it.

 

I don't think I understand the distinction you are making here. I am most drawn to watch porn that features women I find physically attractive (other elements are what "situation" they are in and what "activity/ies" they are involved in). I am drawn to look at women in real life that I find physically attractive. Typically, I would say that men more so fantasize (if they let it get there far in their mind) about being sexual with another person they see irl, not about being in a relationship with them.

 

I'm saying attraction is arbitrary in of itself. If you were to ask yourself questions such as: why is this person attractive to me? What is about these particular features I find attractive? Why do I find them attractive?
Would you be able to answer those questions with things that go beyond "i just am" or "i just do?"

From a psychological standpoint, there have been studies that have shown that people are attracted to what has been shown to them as being attractive. For example, if you see your mom, aunt, teacher, etc as the ideal woman based on the love and attention they provide you when you are a kid, chances are you would look for those same physical features later in life when searching for your own mate. You would associate those physical features with the feelings of comfort you were provided. You wouldn't realize it because it operates at a neurological level. If you have some type of insecure attachment to a particular woman, you would find those characteristics in a future woman as unappealing or appealing depending on how you've navigated through life since then. It is neurological as well.
These neurological features have been studied in the context of porn addiction. What they found is the women you're exposed to in porn create a false "attraction". In other words, the "attraction" is based how the dopaminergic pathways respond to the stimulus. The stimulus being that which has been previously programed through pornography. Where from a psychological perspective you may be drawn to a particular woman based on childhood experiences becomes further compounded by pornography viewing which in turn creates a false narrative.
So the elements you find appealing in pornography program into the reward pathway in your mind. When you see a woman in real life that matches those physical features, it activates the reward system and creates what you interpret as an attraction, but it is actually based on the reward cycle from pornography.

 

There are certainly physical features that I find attractive. For example, I think a skinny woman is unattractive--I'd prefer a bit of chubbiness. However, without some particular character and personality traits, physical features would not long distract me. I am attracted to women who are cheerful (smiling and happy), and who have a positive outlook in life. This is virtually the opposite of my own mother, who hurt me emotionally during my childhood. I'm also attracted to feminine women--not the women's-liberation, in-your-face kind that say "I can do that myself, thank you" when you gentlemanly hold the door open for them, or who seem always to think women superior to men and view life as a continual competition between genders. If she wants to wear the pants, she can look for a skirt-wearing man as far as I'm concerned.

But I am attracted most to women who are beautiful on the inside: honest, caring, sensitive, loving, pure/innocent, graceful, tactful, sweet, diplomatic, astute/prudent, selfless, economical, generous, one who loves children, loves cooking, is hospitable and lives to bless others....and the list goes on. When these traits are combined with an attractive appearance, I find myself on guard lest my heart be stolen away and its secret revealed. I want to stay faithful to my wife; but I am still a man, and not blind. The older I get, the more beautiful women I seem to see--but I am learning to enjoy the beauty without involving so much my heart.

Perhaps in contrast to some others here, my attraction to other women rarely involves fantasizing about the bedroom. Usually I find myself wrestling against the desire to simply hug them or say something sweet. I have to keep in mind the Scripture which says: "It is good for a man not to touch a woman" (1 Corinthians 7:1). The best way to resist temptation is to keep from fantasizing one's way into it. It is much easier to hold one's standard high if one has not allowed fondness for the wrong one to develop in the first place.

 

For context I've just read posts of the OP and the quoted reply to it, sorry if this ends up being redundant with some of the other posts.

Just in terms of the numbers, we know the max days of streaks w/o MO but how long has he been trying?

I assume you mean physical exercise for fitness, what I'm wondering about is psychological exercises and therapeutic processes, including both professionals and peer groups like 12 Step or any kind of recovery groups like that. Has he done any of those and if so how long, what specifically and so forth?

This might not sound like much but it might be the most helpful thing I can say, and it may not feel like it, but it's just that nobody thinks they can be any different until they start to be a different person. There's hope without much of a vision, which is of course still positive, but I think someone has to actually already have changed, which can be in a small and subtle way but obviously significantly so. More specifically I think it's perception changing like in terms of gestalt psychology. Even more specifically perhaps properties like reification and multistability but at this point I'm afraid even just this little bit of information is too much and will lose people for being too conceptual. But for example do you know if he has done the two chair technique in any of the therapy thus far? FWIW I basically feel the solutions are out there but those who are not professionals may not know enough about the workings to seek those particular therapies, not only do individual therapists differ greatly but particular types of therapies are very different so I think it's helpful to talk about those details to be savvy health care consumers, which is probably more important in mental health.

 

If you don't mind my asking, what religion was he raised in? And how involved is he in that religion currently?

 

Tell him if he doesn't help himself to better the relationship u will leave him, and stick to ur words

 

Any update?