Recommencing Dating In Your Mid 20's

Reminder to self: when I have escaped PMO completely, offer more words of wisdom to this thread.

Currently though I'll say this: I'm looking for a girl who is preferably a virgin and at worst only has had one or two past experiences, duly to avoid the potentially embarrassing side of being a virgin being an issue in the first place, and also because it's a sign that she's (possibly only mostly) preserved herself for the right person as I have.

 

You might find her in ancient Britain. But here, I’m not so sure.

 

Heh, certainly I do wonder sometimes if I were meant to be born in elder ages when more people, girls in particular, shared my civilised mindset, but then finding a partner wouldn't be so much of a challenge, would it?

I'm not going to change my goals just because the modern world's more messed-up than it ever was before, because I know that it I settle for less, it's unlikely I would be truly happy. However, if I do find that girl (which I have come close to before, as I met at least a couple of most promising girls who seemed suitably interested in me and were highly unlikely to be the slutty type), I know I will have beaten the odds and triumphed over the wretched curs who do all they can to pollute and poison this society with 'progressive' ideas and illegitimate offspring.

 

I was a virgin before I did NoFap. Until I was 19, I had no sexual interactions with women, during my first time having sex I had PIED so bad that I could not get erect at all while in bed with a 9/10 Instagram hot naked woman, and I was deeply hooked, sexually and psychologically, in the sissy fetish (DO NOT look it up if you don't know what it is, just know it's likely the most addictive and toxic type of porn, DO NOT LOOK IT UP). Since my first reboot, I have been in two long-term relationships, had several fuckbuddies, and had a great time in the revolving hookup culture. I think I'll have the advice you're looking for.

If you could clarify your situation so I don't have to write twice as much it would really help me out haha. Are you a virgin who is anxious about losing their virginity, or have you lost your virginity and are worrying about the many things that come with having sex with a girl who's had a lot more partners and experience than you?

 

Just a few thoughts.
Forget about being inexperienced. Most people are.
I had many relationships but especially after my longest one i felt alienated from the dating world and like I've never talked to a women.
Sometimes I'm super anxious, sometimes I'm relaxed and confident but as long as I focus on having a good time, not coming into a date with expactions but rather the ambition to have a good time with myself and my date regardless of outcome, relationship, sex but more in a way that i just want to meet people and experience stuff.
Nobody knows how this world works, we all want the same, doesn't matter who you are

Just remember to not take things too serious, have patience and most important: fun!

 

Didn’t know you were a historian.

 

Actually it's becoming less weird to be a virgin each passing year. More guys living at home, more guys avoiding work and study commitments, less dating or attempting to date, less exercise and testosterone. The list goes on...

You're not a minority because you didn't get some, you're a minority because you're consciously putting some thought and effort into turning your life around. That's the good news!

Regarding experience, you can make up for that amazingly quickly.

Your first time is going to be awkward, there's no getting around that. But it should also be a lot of fun!

I would recommend trying to find a girl who gets along with you and is not displaying signs or narcissism. You want the highest quality woman (personality not just looks) that will spend time with you.

You can also choose to tell a white lie and say it's just been a while, or "you're so hot, I'm just wanting to go slow because I'm excited".

Final thought: Women typically love going slow (at first) with LOTS of foreplay. Use this!! Take your time to explore slowly - you don't have to get into rhythm right away at all - take your time and make the most of it.

 

These are interesting points that anyone worried about still being a virgin should keep in mind - as long as you're using your time wisely in a virgin state, e.g. working at a degree or job, you're already better off than a lot of guys who have taken the lazy deadbeat route, and you're best off getting into courtship and intimacy when you're really ready, once you've established yourself, that way you've already got two huge advantages - income and confidence that you're ready - that are going to make you all the more attractive.

Exactly, the girls any guy should choose should be those girls who have chosen him, because they are the ones who appreciate and respect him the most and are the most likely to be open to being more than just friends with him. Might as well go for the ones you have the highest chances with, as quality of partners is far better than quantity of partners. A lot of guys may brag about having loads of ex-girlfriends, but all it really shows is how many girls they've lost after attracting them for a while.

Personally I wouldn't advocate lying, because if the girl does ever find out the truth, it'll show her you're afraid of who you are. Be honest, and the right girls will respect that, and perhaps even appreciate it!

I would also recommend saving your first time until you're in a longer-term relationship, because though it'll be a longer wait, ultimately when it does arrive and you've got oxytocin flowing through you after you've made passionate love with a girl who will remain loyal to you for the foreseeable future, you'll be able to say for certainty that the wait and work put in to develop a committed relationship was worth it!

Too many people have forgotten these days that life's about putting work into things to reap greater rewards in the long run.

 

Ok thanks, that does help a lot. Big difference whether you're a virgin or not.

I'll just say it from the getgo, most girls are not going to be super amped about having sex with a 24 year old virgin. I think that's fucked. I might slow down and spend some extra time getting to know a girl who's a 24 year old virgin, but it definitely wouldn't stop me from having sex with her. I actually think it's really intimate and really connecting to have that experience with someone. Nonetheless, many girls I know do not agree.

I've asked lady friends (platonic and fwb) about it before, and I was grilling my girlfriend about it last night. Most of their logic is debatable at best, and hypocritical and sexist at worst. I really don't agree with them on many counts, but you still can't force them to do anything they want to. Whether it's societal conditioning or biological programming, you gotta let them make their own choices. Just like many men wouldn't sleep with an ugly woman who is otherwise hilarious, really smart, and great at sex, many young women won't sleep with a virgin around their same age. Let's get into the reasons why.

Let's start with the reasons I've been told by women:

1. They don't know how to coordinate the movements or actions of sex because they're so used to men doing it. While I thought this was a silly excuse at first, it's actually the one that holds up to argument the most and the one I can kind of get on board with. The only "routine" sex position where the girl is in control of the movement and positioning is cowgirl. Even in that position though, most women are not totally sure what to do, are not super confident, and like it mostly because of the eroticism and power they feel. Every girl I've been with has been "unskilled" in producing actually pleasurable sensations and thrusting from cowgirl except for two, and both of them admitted to extensive "practicing" with dozens of guys. Trying to do just cowgirl during sex just doesn't work.

For every other position, the man is the one that initiates, controls the movement, and usually even moves/positions. Most things girls do during sex are in response to what the man does. Ik it's weird, but that's just how things are. It might be different for women that are a little older, but for women in our age range, this is what I've experienced. Last night I actually had my girlfriend try to replicate the positions/movements from really basic positions we usually do but from my point of view, and she was totally unaware and unable; she also got tired and sore really easily lmao. I'm not worried about her asking to peg me because she would just not be able to hahaha.

So even though it's kinda dumb, by the simple mechanics of sex, I feel for the ladies on this one. I'll talk about strategies to alleviate their worries later, let's keep going with their explanations for not wanting to bang virgins.

2. Women are used to men initiating and controlling sex, and would be unable or unwilling to do that with a man that doesn't know how to initiate or control sex. Since we live in a society, women just don't know how to do these things. I personally think most women could, but alas, they are unwilling. I think it's just a lack of confidence in themselves. They're used to being spectacles and just taking it from men, and don't know how to "direct" the process.

This argument is pretty similar to the previous one, but whereas the previous one is more of lack of mechanical know-how, this point is about mental unwillingness and inability, largely stemming from typical sexual relation dynamics and practices.

3. They range in uneasiness about being the one to take the virginity of any man at X age, and would rather choose to not have sex than deal with any potential consequences or undesirable outcomes. These include:

• you fall in love with them or get infatuated with them
• you want to keep having sex in the future despite their rejections
• one or both of you will become really connected to the other, and there will always be a longing for attachment, even if the relationship would be impractical or toxic
• she will actually like the experience, but you just wanted to have sex to lose your virginity, not because you like her, and you'll leave her out to dry

I'm gonna hold off on my explanation for these ones and go right into the next reason.

4. They worry why you haven't had sex at your age and what it means about your personality, behavior, and mental health. The reasons for 3 and 4 go hand in hand, so I'll explain them together. They all revolve around anxiety of what the future will bring from having sex with a virgin.

Many of these are projections of their own feelings and experiences more than they are judgements of you. Whether women are more traditional or progressive, losing their virginity and other sexual "firsts" mean a lot to them. From what I have been told it is very exhilarating, intense, and memories are very vivid. They feel a lot of attachment and bonding from their first times, and feel that you will be the same. However, women fail to consider how their mental states and bodies differ from men during sex though. Teenage girls and those in their low 20s are full of hormones telling them to cuddle and have sex. Their brains create powerful connections during their first sexual experiences that last a long time, including memories of the specific person and the feelings they felt. On the physical side, women's vaginas and pelvic areas usually have not had flesh rods stuck inside themselves with lots of force; vaginas are made to stretch and are lubricated, but first times for women are unimaginably intense, painful, and even scary. The sensations and emotions they feel during their first time will never be felt again in their lives, according to what many women have told me. They assume the way they felt attached, trusting, and connected to their partner and the intense physical sensations are what you will feel, and they don't want you to remember them as much as they do their first time. Persistent men is a very scary concept for women, and they don't want the false feelings of trust and infatuation they felt during their first time to be directed at them by someone 60 pounds heavier than them.

Women also worry about their own feelings. Their minds are wired to believe in "true love", and even though they understand the irrationality of the concept, they fall for the trap anyway constantly. Many avoid intimacy and bonding in some of their relationships because they don't want to get attached and risk heartbreak. Women anticipate a lot of connection and intimacy when taking a man's virginity, and will decide to rather not risk it. I have not had that directly happen to me, but many of my female friends will flat out stop seeing someone if they're starting to catch feelings because they don't want heartbreak, and I've had a few women cut off contact with me because they felt things were getting too serious. Not wanting to have sex with a virgin is a logical extrapolation that initially flawed line of thought.

Another big reason for not wanting to slam virgins is the thought "Why hasn't he had sex yet?". It will be in the minds of every girl, even ones that want to have sex. Many follow up questions include:

• Is he really immature or socially incompatible for his age group?
• Is he autistic or have another disability?
• Was he in jail or somewhere else where he could not have sex?
• Was he in a religious group that forbade sex?
• Was he sexually traumatized and unable/unwilling to have sex?
• Am I missing something that made other girls not want to fuck him?

Not gonna lie, I would think these things too if I was going to have sex with a a virgin my age. They're valid worries. A lot of women don't want to deal with your baggage, your sexual/mental immaturity, or something else they don't like about you. They worry that you did something bad and were either completely unable or disallowed to have sex. Women worry that if you come from somewhere where having sex is very scared, you're more likely to become infatuated and connected to them. They worry they could be having sex with a serial killer! Call them paranoid or picky, but the fact of the matter is most women can find a man to have sex with them who isn't a virgin, so why bother with you? It is really fucked imo, but it's a very simple economic choice: why sleep with you and experience the same pleasure at a higher risk than doing it with someone else who will give the same pleasure and lower risk.

Regardless of whether you think any of these reasons are logical or not, this is what I've come to expect from women. My sources are my current girlfriend, conversations with several past FWB, and female friends. Ik it's not painting the best picture, but men are assholes too. Moving on...

FINALLY

Let's talk strategies for lowering the chances of a woman not wanting to have sex because you're a virgin. I'll talk about ways to counteract reasons 1/2, then 3/4, and then other general strategies and tips.

I group 1/2 and 3/4 together because in the first two, the reluctance to have sex with you comes from their conclusions about both of your pasts (which you cannot change), and the second two come from their thoughts on the future (which you can change).

Let's start with 1 & 2, which revolves around them thinking you do not have the physical ability to control/direct sex, and they do not have the mental ability to do so either. Now you may be thinking "Dude this isn't a problem at all, I've watched enough porn to know how sex works!". Well well well, don't we all think that! Watching porn actually correlates to very little sexual know-how for first timers (imo). Basic thrusting and positioning is so hard to get right, no matter how much porn you've seen. It took me like 8 times having sex before I really kinda got it down. Also, the muscles in your arms, core, and legs that are used during sex are typically not that strong or enduring your first few times, no matter how fit you are; it's less of a fitness thing and more that you just haven't exercised or stretched the muscles all at once to the intensity they're undergoing, and you only get better with experience. (Also PS, the vagina is sooooo much lower than you think, I feel like porn start vaginas are like higher for some reason, real ones are like basically at the assholes lmao)

So don't go in expecting to know what's going on. PLEEEASE don't go in expecting to be a pro. You won't be. No one is. Also, if it comes to having sex, don't try to pressure her to "take charge" or tell you what to do. The more you press her to show you whatsup when she says "idk" or "I'm not sure", the less into it she's gonna be. Pressure is the biggest turnoff for girls during sex, so if she says no once, best to lay off.

Tell her that she doesn't need to direct the whole shebang if she doesn't want to. Her next question (and probably yours) will be "So how do you two have sex if you don't know what to do and she won't tell you?" Two mottos:

1. Be excited
2. Do what feels good, don't do what doesn't feel good

A lot of women's excitement and arousal comes from their perception of you, so if you seem really into having sex, are not nervous, and are just down for anything, she'll feel that way too. Even if you have to cheese it up a little bit, being giddy and excited is a must.

Then you just gotta try shit out. Missionary and flat iron are the easiest in terms of figuring it out, effort, and getting pleasure, so stick to those. The general idea is easy enough to figure out, but the angles and how you thrust is kinda tricky. Sometimes you gotta look away from her and check out your dick to make sure it's going in and out lmao, it's totally fine, don't worry about it. If she needs to be warmed up or go slow at first, take care of that; if she's not ready and you do something too strong/quick, it can range from annoying to very painful, which could end your encounter very quickly.

Once she's ready and into it, try to find an angle, position, and rhythm that feels good for you. When you find it, tell her! Say what you're feeling! She's gonna love that. When it feels good for you ask her it it feels good for her. She'll let you know what to do, but most of the time she'll either just say yes or ask you to slow down or not go in as deep; most women have "spots" or angles that set them off, but don't really know how guys hit them, so don't worry about doing that to her.

In general, just talk, laugh, and have a good time. Don't take it too seriously. Ask lots of questions, say she feels really good, moan, say her name in her ear, etc. Keep doing whatever feels good for you. If you feel like you're gonna cum, tell her a little bit before, but keep doing what you're doing. Don't break her pelvis, but don't hold back your orgasm. This time it's all about you. When you feel yourself on the brink, just let it all out, and let her hear all of it.

Note: If she says she's down to tell you exactly what to do, disregard all of that except the two mottos, they always apply hahaha. If she doesn't want to be in charge, feel free to tell her how you want to do things like I explained. It will ease her mind that you're kinda directing the whole thing, even if you don't know exactly what happens.

Now for reasons 3 and 4. Personally, I think all the reasons for not fucking a virgin from these two groups are bullshit. There is nothing intrinsic that separates a virgin from a non-virgin that will make it more likely for the undesirable consequences I mentioned to come to fruition. I feel like reasons listed in 3-4 are just excuses they use because they either consciously or subconsciously believe in reasons 1 or 2, but don't want to say them out loud. After talking with my girlfriend last night, I feel this could be true.

Nonetheless, this is how many women will feel. However, talking to her beforehand can help alleviate the fears she'll have. For reasons listed in 3 (related to the consequences of having sex with a virgin), you can tell her things like:

• You're not in love with her and will not be (don't joke with love at all, just say no lmao)
• If you two do have sex, there is no guarantee you will have sex or even hang out again, you'll consider it when you've thought about the date tomorrow, probably yes but she'll see
• You like her so far but barely know her, and your attachment to her is between acquaintance and good friend at the moment
• You're not just having sex with her to get it over with, you just like her and wanted to take the next step
• You think losing your virginity is a special moment but it's fine if it doesn't happen right now

You basically want to assure her having sex with you will be no different after the fact than having sex with any other man. Ask her questions if she's uneasy or reluctant still. Tell her it's fine if she doesn't want to at that moment. Try to be logical, calm, and understanding. Say she's right to feel the way she does, but give counterexamples, especially ones with her in your position.

If she says "Fuck it let's do it!" or "I don't want to do this..." then you have your answer. If she's unsure, call it off and go back to whatever you were doing. Brush it off, say it's fine, and just go back to making out or watching a movie. She's probably gonna be a little held back because she'll think you're mad, so let her know it's totally ok. Be happy and grateful for the time you're having together. If you let her know it's fine and you still like her and want to keep having fun, odds are next time she'll be much more willing.

Adopt the mindset that losing your virginity is not the biggest deal, even though it is significant. I think about it like growing to be 5 feet tall when you're 10-14; yeah it's a cool thing, and it will probably make your life more enjoyable, but once it happens you won't even care anymore. It's really arbitrary, and if it doesn't happen to you, then it really doesn't make a difference in your life. It doesn't really matter what age it happens at either. There is a lot of tension, anticipation, and importance felt beforehand, but once it happens, no one even cares anymore. Explain to her that you want to do it, but you don't think it'll be a life changing event, and don't really mind when it happens. You can say you'd like it to be with her because you had a fun time with her and she's really cute, but if it's ok if she doesn't want to do it now. The more you play it off as less of a big deal (which it isn't), the more she'll agree, and the better luck you'll have.

Almost done!

You're also gonna have to explain to her why you haven't had sex yet. This one's easy because you can mostly be honest and fill in the rest with some simpy shit.

There are some things you want to avoid. They mainly involve you being in institutions, forced or voluntary, that did not allow you to have sex. These include:

• being in jail
• being in a cult or strict religion
• being banned by your parents

Just no for all of these or anything similar.

If you've had any sexual trauma I'm sorry, but now is not the time to bring that up, sorry man. Most people, including men, feel really uncomfy taking the virginity of someone who has some serious shit going on. Save that for a little down the line.

Covid is the best (and real) reason for not having sex, so basically say you were about to 2 years ago when everything shut down. 22 is still kinda old for losing your virginity as a man, so here are some good things to tell her why you didn't have sex:

• you were really insecure, but conquered a lot of your insecurities (through improving yourself AND your mindset), and now you're much more confident and happy (I use this a lot, girls like it)
• you thought sex was a really mature thing and just didn't see yourself ready to do it yet (denying your own maturity actually shows you have a lot of it! so girls like this too)
• you didn't really like the sexual culture you were surrounded by, so you didn't initiate with anyone (don't trash practices that you did to meet this girl and get her to this point lmao)
• if you have a good job, did a special but intense training between 18-22, or went to an elite college, say you just put so much time into your work you didn't even think about having sex with anyone. However, if you say this but you don't have a lot accomplished so far, she'll be skeptical and think you're lazy or lying, have a legitimate reason for not spending time looking for relationships (you were in the military, you were getting an engineering degree, you're already a millionaire, etc., if you have a degree/certificate that's not hard for someone fo your background to get and don't make bank she'll be really suspicious)

Don't say you had chances to but you didn't execute (she'll think you're lying or get ED in the moment), don't say it's because you never met someone you wanted to have sex with (she'll think you're lying again, extremely picky, or infatuated with her), and don't say it's because you just weren't driven to have sex until recently. She might ask if you're gay. I know it may seem insulting, but it's how a lot of gay guys realize who they are. Just laugh it off, but if she persists, just explain to her how not gay you are.

You just gotta explain to her that you not having sex was just a chance of circumstance combined with Covid laws, and you're otherwise a completely normal dude

Fuck this is getting long as fuck, so here's some more tips that I hope help. Lmk if you have other questions!

1. Have a couple makeout sessions (not just a kiss) before having sex. My girlfriend said she would be much more likely to say yes to fucking a virgin if they made out on a bed before. Making out with you on top of her is basically he same exact positioning as sex, so it tells her you can hang. If you're unsure of initiating a kiss, my very liberal girlfriend says going for a kiss after three dates is pretty much expected; a girl that says trying to kiss her after three dates is rude is crazy fucker and you should avoid her (according to my girlfriend). If you're at one of your places, just ask to go to the bedroom.
2. Don't try to have sex the first time you go into each other's bedroom. The first time is for making out. The second is for either making out, watching a movie, or having a sleepover where you just cuddle. The third time you're in her room and after is go time. If she asks to have sex the first time, say you would just like to kiss/sleepover. Say you really like her, think she's really pretty, blah blah blah, but want to get to know her better. If she asks the second time you're in her room, I would go for it, and if she doesn't ask by the third, you should initiate. This is a really good tactic for increasing the sexual tension. Wanting to have sex but not doing it drives girls horny as fuck. Additionally, when you tell her you're a virgin and she thinks you're gonna take it too seriously or just ghost her, ask her why you asked to not have sex and sleepover; if you were really desperate or infatuated with her, you would have wanted to do it right away. Gotta have some logic ammo for her worries
3. If you don't know how to initiate or get consent (if you're in one of those super liberal areas), stick with this script after a while of intense making out: "Hey this is really fun , do you want to have sex?". Smile the entire time, no matter what she says next or what you respond with. If she says no, keep smiling, say "Oh That's fine!", and keep making out. If she says "idk" or "I'm not sure", say "It's totally fine, we don't have to right now!", and just go back to making out. If she says yes, say "That's great , I do too", and then just keep making out (Lots of making out happens before sex lmao). Wait until some clothes are off, and then tell her, with the biggest smile on your face "Oh yeah should probably mention that I'm a virgin, if you wanna talk about it that's fine, but just know I'm super excited, not nervous at all, really turned on by you, and totally ready to go" (at the last five words you can emphasize for a second the outline of your penis through your pants/underwear.) What happens after that is up to you
4. Have a fucking condom lmao
5. I didn't include anything about foreplay but you need to do that lmao. I usually shoot for 10-25 minutes of naked making out and oral/manual stimulation for whoever I'm with, and I just need about 1 minute of getting my dick licked lmao. It's very situational, ask her if she wants anything done before having sex, and just be really into it (don't fake it, just be excited).
6. Just the whole time show you're excited, super into her, and not nervous. If you don't know what you're doing, fake it till you make it and just ask lots of questions. Smile, laugh, don't be too serious, and just have a good time.

 

Yeah man the Ritalin just hit me and I totally lost track of time lmao.

It just really varies between girls. I bet some would be super down to take a guy's virginity at 24, most would be apprehensive, and some would pass right away. It's good that you're not college aged because I feel like girls calm down and think more rationally when they aren't surrounded by penises with nothing to do but fuck.

The best thing you can do is just reiterate how mature you're gonna be about it. You're not gonna fall in love with her, you don't need to have sex again, and you just wanna have a good time.

 

While much of your advice is interesting and useful, to be frank I cannot help but look at this attitude of yours that treats sex as though it were a scientific experiment at the expense of love with contempt.

I see nothing mature about avoiding falling in love with a girl you have sex with, and nothing mature about expecting only to have a one-off fuck, because sex is meant to strengthen and deepen already existing love, and should only be practiced by couples who have already got into a relationship and genuinely feel love for one another already. On the contrary, I see the idea of just wanting to 'have fun' and being afraid of commitment as the real sign of immaturity, because it shows a lack of responsibility and a fear of the work it requires to keep that commitment strong.

Hookup culture is filthy, degenerate hedonism, instant gratification in one of its vilest forms. Naturally because you have already been bitten by its seductive bug you think it's great, but it's unhealthy for everyone who gets into it, regardless of what the 'progressive' dumbfucks say, as it encourages sex addiction, self-service, callousness and treachery. Indeed you've already pointed out that girls are less respectful toward virgin men entirely because they've become afraid of the commitment that man may desire, and are poisoned with the desire to get the most amount of pleasure for the least amount of work - this is the evidence of entirely what hookup culture does to people, and that's why it is evil and damaging, and must be banned.

It's not too late for you to change your mindset. You have a girlfriend already, which is a good start, and committing to her now, and encouraging her to commit to you, will benefit both of you in the long run. Why live a meaningless life of chasing, seduction and break-ups populated by the occasional spike of pleasure that ends almost instantaneously, when you can have a consistent and rewarding life of mutual support, trust and happiness?

And @BlindSisyphus, I would avoid following the hookup-inspired aspects of his advice if you are to avoid going down the same rabbit-hole of doom. The tips about getting into sex for the first time are well thought-out and are worth heeding, but save them until you've already built up some emotional intimacy and affection with one girl who really likes you, and agree with her beforehand as to the level of commitment you want to reach. If she doesn't want to commit as much as you do, leave her, she's obviously become too tempted by the lazy hookup lifestyle and is not worth your time.


P.S. To both of you, I'm not saying you shouldn't have fun at all when making love, on the contrary, you should enjoy every minute of lovemaking with the girl of your choice, but sex should be treated with more respect than simply being shared around like a family-fun-size packet of crisps, and you'll have all the more fun if you save it for when you're with a committed partner, as it will strengthen the desire of both of you to commit to one another and you'll feel eager anticipation at the next time you get to have such fun with the same partner again, rather than worrying about whether you'll ever see her again or if you'll have to find someone else.

So long as you do both remain loyal to each other, neither of you shall need to worry about heartbreak.
I personally see loyalty as one of the most basic qualities to understand and develop, and once with a committed partner I would never consider cheating on her, and would only leave if she stopped respecting me in the way I deserve, so I personally don't understand why a girl should be afraid of me committing such unfailing loyalty to her.

 

I do agree that sex is a really special thing and shouldn't be treated super lightly. I had my phase of being in the hookup culture and probably won't go back to it to the extent I participated before. I was just young and wanted to get my rocks off all the time, not really feeling that anymore.

I also agree that relationships that are based off sex are probably not going to be the most healthy or long-lasting. If you only like each other because of the lust, there's not a lot of love right there.

There are some things I disagree with though.

1. Reserving sex for couples already in love with each other is very impractical and unrealistic. People do not fall in love quickly. You may feel love for your partner, but being in love is another whole thing. It takes yeeears to fall love in with someone, and to withhold sex between couples for that long does not seem practical or productive. You said it yourself that given the right mindset, sex really strengthens attachment and intimacy between partners, so why wait that long with someone you care about to have sex, even if you're not sure if you're going to be life partners?

And what if you're not sexually compatible? Or one of you is just not good at sex? I would be fucking pissed if I dated a girl for many years, fell in love with her, and then found out that my dick was too small/big for it to feel good with her, she always liked to be on top, or some other random bullshit. Sex is fucking important for intimacy, but also just feeling good and enjoying your life. Restricting people from seeking a fitting partner doesn't seem reasonable to me.

2. Your anecdotes about commitment being the basis for sex are rooted in traditional cultural norms that don't apply as much today. Again, I agree that sex is a very special, sacred thing. People have known that for a long time, and have adopted many rules and customs regulating sexual activities.

In the US, we developed a certain culture around sex in which people, especially women, were expected to reserve sex for long term relationships/marriage (i.e. commitment). The expectation and punishment of this was largely put on women because they were the ones that gave birth and would be expected to care for the child; since in many areas of the country women did not (or were not allowed to) work, if a woman had a child and was not married, this would become an extreme economic burden on herself, her family, and society. Because of this, society extremely discouraged women from having sex before marriage (since it would become a burden of the society). On the flipside, men could attempt to have sex before marriage, and if there was a pregnancy, they would abandon the woman and let the burden be put on society; men were also told not to do this and labeled as bad, bubt since it's easier for a man to say he never had sex with any certain woman, the consequences largely fell on women. I'm a Catholic and believe in God, but it's easy to see how societies make religious and social rules in the name of "holiness" and "sacredness", but it's easy to see how many socioreligious rules throughout time were created for the purpose of keeping society running smoothly, not by some divine revelation.

Things are changing now though. If a woman gets pregnant outside of marriage, it's not ideal obviously, but since women are becoming more financially emancipated every day, the burden falls on her, not society. Again, not ideal, but the idea that women who get pregnant before marriage are just creating waste and holding back society isn't true anymore. Many people who grow up in single mother homes are often extremely hard working and extremely driven to succeed in life through the inspiration of their moms.

Birth control has contributed to this as well. Men have always wanted sex. Women have always wanted it too, but men have always been a little more desperate haha, so women have been the supply side, men the demand. Women used to reserve sex for marriage because they knew men wanted it, but also knew if they had no husband to support them they would be fucked if they got pregnant, so they would wait until after marriage. Nowadays, women can have sex and not get pregnant. Sooo, they use that demand to get things they want right now without commitment. It's not total hedonism, it's simple economics regulated by social norms. Sex is a commodity that was restricted based on certain consequences that would burden society, so it was restricted by individuals. Those consequences no longer apply, so individuals no longer restrict themselves.



I agree that instant gratification and sleeping with anyone all you want all the time is not the healthiest for you or society. In fact, I've seen showing restraint and not needing sex is super attractive to women in the hookup culture and those looking for long term relationships.

I also agree that hookup culture and noncommittal sex is not the best or healthiest thing in the world. There's lots of jealousy, manipulation, coercion, and just terrible shit going on. But to say "Hookup culture is bad, everyone should go back to no sex before marriage" is a false dichotomy. Just because Course of Action #1 has problems Course of Action #2 can account for does not mean Course of Action #2 is correct; additionally, there may be other options besides the two that also work.

Birth control and the financial emancipation of women has allowed women to use sex as personal capital in a way that has never been experienced by humans before, so of course it's going to be messy, we have no societal or moral basis for this specific circumstance. Again, I do think sex is really special and sacred. I also know through biological and archaeological evidence that humans evolved to live in monogamous, pair-bond relationships. We are made to live, love, and raise children with a life partner. It's a fact. But to persuade everyone to adopt that way of living for every point of their life is no practical. Randomly choosing one person that you're committed to forever is unrealistic and bound for catastrophe. Even in relationships that fail due to jealousy, disloyalty, and lying, there is always wisdom in failure, and if people take that with them to their next relationship, they can be much better partners for their life partner.

 

Dude, you have a serious problem with writing unnecessary long posts. Everytime I see your username I think to myself “here we go.. better get scrolling.” Seriously man.. figure it out.

 

I've been where you are dude. I've felt and seen the exact same things as you have. My lifestyle, mindset, and porn abuse were all holding me back from pushing towards my goals, finding fulfillment along the way, and just being happy and a good person.

It took me years of procuring knowledge, trial and error, and gaining experience to get where I am today, which I think is a very positive, very fulfilling, very sustainable, very happy life. I'm just trying to help others get there too. Yeah, I write a lot of shit, but I think it's necessary and important to how I got here.

 

Not sure where you are getting your info, but I am unaware of any hookup culture that existed before the one that began in 1950s America and extends to today. To my knowledge, the concept of casual sex, without commitment or the risk of pregnancy, is a very new thing. It began in the 1950s when family cars and movie theaters meant adolescents could get frisky without their parents around. Combined with the sexual revolution of the 60s and widely accessible birth control, flings and noncommittal sex has become more common over time. For most of that period, the men were the "seeking providers" and women the "careful deciders"; men wanted sex and could bring status, money, and protection, and women would give themselves to men in exchange for a share of those things. In the last 2 decades, the financial independence of women increased their relationship capital and pickiness, causing men to increasingly prioritize their looks and sex appeal in addition to traditional showings of attraction (money, status, sociality, etc.) to get the type of hookup culture we have today.

Matriarchies are not societies where women use sexual capital to manipulate men. That happens all the time. Women have always had sexual influence on men in Western societies and none of them have been matriarchies hahaha. Matriarchy simply means that women are the leaders, philosophers/intellectuals, and decision makers. It doesn't necessarily mean they controlled men through sex or that they controlled sexual relationships at all.

It would be great if you could give a few examples of some of these older societies that had a hookup culture and these matriarchies that you described (don't think you have the right name for them still), and how both kept historical records (or their mythology/legends since that is how humans have described most events). Thanks!