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Question: Does 90 day PMO mean no Sex with wife?

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by jkovich, Dec 14, 2021.

Which would you recommend if no PMO while married?

  1. PMO isn’t a big deal at all if you do it together?

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Drop the P, just focus on O when you are together and M if you are not.

    1 vote(s)
    5.6%
  3. Only orgasms are with your wife, non negotiable

    14 vote(s)
    77.8%
  4. Complete Abstinence for a period..

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. jkovich

    jkovich Fapstronaut

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    Hello-

    Does 90 day noPMO mean that I do not have sex with my wife?

    I’ve been struggling for a while with my relationship (married 5+ years). We don’t have a terrible sex life, nor do I have any problems with performance, but I do have problems with how it makes me objectify her or my overall experience in my life.

    I’m much more disconnected spiritually from God and relationally with her and almost everyone else. So I’m noticing significant side affects and I know it’s time to change something in my life.

    However, I’ve cut out just P for a while and that seems to work pretty well. I think if I cut out P and M I would be much more interested in her overall but I feel like it’s just a bandaid for a marriage that might or might not be working. Whenever I get in the mood it makes me really want sex and I’ll do almost anything.

    My thought is this. I want to do a 90 day PMO but I’m wondering. Should I remove sex also entirely to try to reset my marriage that could be on the brink of divorce? I would obviously have this conversation with her and I’m not scared of that, I am just wondering if anyone has had any experience with this that could give me some advice and let me know what’s recommended.
     
  2. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    It’s recommended by professionals to abstain from all sexual stimulus. This includes even seeing your wife dress/undress/naked. Obviously you would need to decide this as a couple. During this time you need to work on not fantasizing either. You should focus on non sexual touching and trying to connect without “ getting” sex.
     
  3. p1n1983

    p1n1983 Fapstronaut

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    Try and go after no P no M for a month or two and se how it goes. If you think that you are using your wife as a glorified masturbation, then you can think about abstaning all together.
    It can also be that the relationship is over and maybe you are avoiding reality with porn. Only you can figure that out.
     
    Kitos and becomingreat like this.
  4. happenstance

    happenstance Fapstronaut

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    For one ignore all of the doom and gloom. It's bullshit for anyone to even insinuate that the relationship may be over. When you get rid of the PMO your brain will function much more normally as it should. Besides experts will warn you not to make any major life decisions for a full year starting at the time you begin the recovery process. Ask any expert in the field. Second none of us has what you have. An emotional investment in the relationship. It's easy sitting up in the cheap seats telling you how to play the game. We're not on the field with you so we have no idea what is really going on down there. You do. Take the advice you get here with a grain of salt. Salt is cheap. And so is the advice.

    You don't need to remove sex but it does slow your recovery time down and it will take a little longer. If you can do it and she is willing I would say go for it. I agree with what Psalm said about connecting. What we learned is that in doing so our sex life actually increased. Not decreased. We have sex much more now than we ever did before we were married. Getting rid of PMO has huge benefits for both of us.
     
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  5. jkovich

    jkovich Fapstronaut

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    Thank you for your words. I agree, previous post not very helpful. lol.

    This is where I get confused. When you say "When you get rid of PMO, your brain will function much more normally as it should" Are you including O here, which would include sex?

    Same at the end, you say you have sex more often but then say getting rid of PMO. It's very confusing.
     
  6. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    She’s saying you only abstain from sex for a little while in order to get your brain back to a normal function. You have been abusing your brain. Flooding it with abnormal stimuli. The orgasm part of sex is what is shared with pmo. You want to get to a place where you are not traveling the neuropathways that you created with porn, if that makes sense? Basically “ rewiring” your brain. Stopping sex for a short period of time ( 90 days) helps speed this recovery
     
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  7. happenstance

    happenstance Fapstronaut

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    What Psalm said! That!
     
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  8. newbobido

    newbobido Fapstronaut

    Hi

    That is a really strong statement, and I’m not sure that this is a one size fits all solution.

    In my own life our counsel told us in therapy simply to NOT do that that. Among other reason he said it because in our own personal story, the fact that I “cancelled the will” of my wife WAS the problem. And to now “force” her into abstinence because that would have a good impact on my own recovery would do much more harm to the relationship than good He said that for us, even with a bad sex life, she would get back a feeling of control in her life and that is much more important than some rule / external pressure to not have sex. so even if it would be a good thing for my own recovery, I should find a longer way for my recovery because this particular path would hurt her and our recovery as a couple.

    I’m not trying to start a fight, if you have sources for this, I will really thank you if you could share them with me because my wife and I have been talking about this idea. And if there is not enough real consensus that this idea would fit everyone, I think it’s better to simply give it as a suggestion “It’s recommended by SOME professionals” and not an absolute answer.
     
    Kitos, devsMind and jkovich like this.
  9. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    It is recommended by the majority of csats,, but not required. If you read what I wrote previously, we initially chose not to go the 90 days because of the exact reasons you cited, the same for us. My husband had rejected me throughout our marriage. Abstaining felt more like the same. However, my husband came to me and asked ( giving me control) if we could abstain, because he was struggling. Since recovery was far more important to me than sex, we then chose to abstain. It should be decided as a couple, otherwise you’re right, you are once again forcing her into something she has no say in. My husband also had IA, so it seemed counter intuitive to abstain from sex, however it actually helped him with this as well. Every couple has to decide together what’s best, this isn’t about you deciding to abstain. I know that I was adamantly against abstaining in the beginning. I also know my husband relapsed in the beginning a lot and he was desperate to get into recovery. However, if your wife doesn’t mind you relapsing and doesn’t want to give up sex, then I agree, dont abstain. It isn’t fair to her. My husband just struggled too much after sex. It made staying clean more difficult. I do know that there will always be outliers, you will find that with anything. Sources -Dr.Kevin Skinner, Doug Weiss, Patrick Carnes.,my csat works with Dr.Skinners group. He’s a top expert in this field and one of the best books out there is Treating Pornography Addiction, highly recommend that. Patrick Carnes and Doug Weiss address IA in porn addicts. Both top in this field as well.
     
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  10. newbobido

    newbobido Fapstronaut

    Thank you :)

    What does IA mean?
     
  11. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    Intimacy anorexia, your therapist should be well versed in this if he’s helping you with porn addiction. It’s very common for porn addicts to have sone version of this.
     
    newbobido likes this.
  12. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    Also, my husband skipped the IA part of the homework in his group because he didn’t think he had it. To which both me and my csat laughed as he was pretty classic IA! I had to point it out to him.,
     
    newbobido likes this.
  13. happenstance

    happenstance Fapstronaut

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    Newbobido I’m just gonna jump all over this.

    Your own counsel told you this? First of all any coach counselor therapist doctor whatever worth their weight in salt will tell you that you must focus on your own recovery first above and beyond everything else including the relationship. As my counselor told us that if we didn’t do that we wouldn’t need to worry about the relationship because we wouldn’t have one anymore. Think that through why don’t you.

    Sex addiction is an illness. It is a brain disease. Some people will argue that it isn’t but the evidence is overwhelming. So much so it is included in the 2022 ICD-11. I did my research on it after reading some of my counselor’s materials that he provided. Would it be prudent to have sex with someone with a brain tumor? I wouldn’t think so. This logic is so ridiculous that it defies common sense.

    The assertion that you “canceled her will” or “forced” her is equally as preposterous. You didn’t do anything of the sort. Every relationship consists of at least two people. If either party is not in agreement there is no agreement. Then we are left with prioritizing our own needs first. But there again if you don’t do your personal recovery work first you will end up with neither. You won’t have to worry about harming your relationship because you won’t have one anymore.

    Finally I would like to focus on this: “He said that for us, even with a bad sex life, she would get back a feeling of control in her life and that is much more important than some rule / external pressure to not have sex.” There is no “rule” that says you must abstain from sex. There is only a recommendation and it is purely for the purpose of healing the brain that is damaged. If “he” because “he” doesn’t really know or understand what “she” thinks or feels doesn’t have the faintest idea how damaging it is for a woman to have a sex life with the betrayal trauma and the PTSD that “she” experiences bad sex with. I think it is safe to say if you asked any woman on here how their sex life with their SO has been it’s been rather shitty. “He” is clueless as evidenced by his advice. She always had control. She just didn’t realize it. Your counselor should be focusing on “your” recovery. Not the relationship recovery. And stop worrying about hurting her. That horse has already left the barn. Closing the barn door now is a waste of time. It’s not your job to heal her and she wouldn’t trust you to do it anyway.
     
    Psalm27:1my light likes this.
  14. jkovich

    jkovich Fapstronaut

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    Thank you so much.

    Aside the advice specifically about my relationship and other things, I have read the book, “you’re brain on Porn” which was fascinating. My wife and I split up for 100 days last year. After she left I started facing this demon and decided I needed to tell her about it (I had never admitted it in the past). It was a hard thing to do, especially considering all I wanted was for her to come home, but it needed to be done.

    I abstained from watching Porn for over six months but then things got hard and I’d go down ‘rabbit holes’ on instagram of all places, which led to only fans…. I was being an asshole to her again and had to admit that I relapsed to her in September and things have just been really hard since then (and I haven’t been pure).

    Our relationship is not good and I don’t know if it has to do with our compatibility (a lot there) or our sexual relationship. Since she left she is no longer a Christian and she also tells me she does not want to have children (she did when we met) and that is something that I really want in my life.

    So… I know something needs to change because I’m on the verge of divorce anyway.

    Like Happenstance posted, I know that no matter what happens I need to focus on me and my own recovery, and the best way to gain my own power right now is to do this. No PMO, but it’s the O that worries me. Because I’m scared if I lose that, (and our sex is good) then I lose her.

    It might inversely be the fact that my desire for sex with her is the only reason I haven’t thrown in the towel and if I not longer desire or try to have sex with her I will turn to apathy because we don’t really share the same beliefs anymore. There’s some pretty foundational things that we should be on the same page about.

    So either way I’m in a tough spot. Thank you guys for your feedback.

    PS> RE: IA
    This was the first time I’ve ever heard of Intimacy Anorexia, even after listening to “Your Brain on Porn”, “ The game plan” and “Unwanted” which I thought were authoritative sources.

    I checked out their website and sent it to my wife. It’s my belief that we both struggle with IA, but in opposite ways. I’m going to look into an intesnsive. Maybe she will do it with me as a last ditch effort. ‍♂️
     
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  15. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    When I married my husband I had a very secure attachment style, was most definitely not I A. Within 5 years of being married to him I ( response to his treatment within marriage) had an anxious /avoidant attachment . The betrayal trauma and the feeling God must be punishing me by allowing me to marry someone so incredibly selfish made me question my Trust and belief in God. I developed reactive IA. I don’t know your wife, she may have already had IA or an attachment style that isn’t secure. I too, did not want children, especially because my husband was so selfish. Addicts are selfish, porn addicts aren’t just selfish, they completely devalue their spouse with their actions. If the only reason you are staying with your wife is because of sex, let her go. If you actually value her, not value what she can give you, ie sex, children, then get into recovery no matter what it takes. I’m sure you understand that even if you divorce the next relationship will struggle and possibly end because of your addiction. You cannot have a healthy relationship while you continue in addiction. You can make the relationship work, I know, because my husband thought our marriage was great. The difference in him now is night and day. He is a completely different man. Lol, he is finally a MAN, not a man child that acted 15. After 35 years together, this guy has finally grown up. For 3 years I’ve watched him change, consistently. I’ve watched his relationships with friends and family change. I’ve watched him struggle with huge amounts of shame and regret over what he’s done. I’ve watched him reach out and take chances with people, himself. The opposite of addiction is connection. You must learn to connect with people. If you don’t, you will never be able to get into real recovery. Addicts don’t trust people and have a difficult time connecting. If you want recovery, you will do whatever it takes, if you don’t want recovery, you will make excuses. The exudes are your addict voice, learn to recognize it. My husband has finally gotten to where he will ask me “ is this a normal way of thinking or is it my addict?” He’s good at recognizing the voice most times but sometimes not. Sometimes I’m just like “ oh my gosh, no that’s not normal and definitely your addict!” Lol.
     
  16. happenstance

    happenstance Fapstronaut

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    Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! This!
     
  17. jkovich

    jkovich Fapstronaut

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    Thank you…. I’m fully aware and I know at this point my only move is to get completely clean and clear, exactly the purpose of this post and day 2 so… here we go.

    This information from your point of view is super helpful, so thank you. I thought I had this under control last year and here we are again. I have a super addictive personality. I talked to her today about my desire to go no PMO completely for 90 days. She was suprised because she said it seemed out of the blue, and didn’t realize it had been going on again. This has been part of my life since I was 12 but I know I can beat this one. (The addictive personality itself, probably not so much. I call mine Todd, and he’s an asshole).

    I didn’t expect to get answers from the opposite in these relationships but what a gift. Thank you for helping me finally understand how my wife is feeling.
     
  18. Psalm27:1my light

    Psalm27:1my light Fapstronaut

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    Haha Todd , the AHole love it
     
  19. happenstance

    happenstance Fapstronaut

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    Todd? How did you know my husband's name? You know him? JK!

    I just wanted to clarify something for you that you said at the very end. "Thank you for helping me finally understand how my wife is feeling." You should know that you are far from "finally understanding" how she is feeling. However you think she is feeling I assure you that it is much much worse. I would say you're beginning to understand and the finality of it won't really hit home until you get well into recovery yourself. Some of this stuff that people pass off as recovery isn't really recovery. It's only a bandaid. It doesn't fix the problem. It only temporarily covers it up and masks it.
     
    Psalm27:1my light likes this.
  20. devsMind

    devsMind Fapstronaut

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    @jkovich It’s good to look at things from different angles and mine slightly differs, so throwing my 0,03$ with hopes of helping you!

    Entire rewiring concept is all about no PMO BUT only when it comes to artificial stimulation:
    https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rebooting-porn-use-faqs/do-i-have-to-have-sex-in-order-to-rewire/

    Rewiring in essence is learning, and learning must be consistent and match real-life scenarios to be effective preparation. I’ve read many stories like “I am abstaining from PMO for half year, no intercourses & healing seems not to move forward”.

    You don’t want to learn to be complete sex abstinent, on top of that this will go against human nature-making entire process far more difficult by which I understand that risk of many more relapses will be far greater.

    What I think you are aiming is to:
    1)free yourself from P and excessive M
    2)permanently associate O with real sex (preferably moral one, so with wife)
    3)Use that energy and time previously consumed by addiction to better yourself

    Even if you somehow get rid entirely of PMO (also including sex scenario, but then again it will be far harder) you still need to put that energy somewhere and that proper time management, building good habits will make you better version of yourself-as was nicely put in previous reply “from man-child to MAN”.

    Notice that this train of thoughts focuses on YOU, not your wife/relationship-but by maintaining O with your wife she will also notice gradual progress and that romantic time will certainly give your marriage better chances for surviving-for which I am strongly crossing my fingers right now!

    Wishing all of you amazing day and successes with fighting inner demons!
     

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