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Journal. Cheer me on?

For Fapstronauts who are disciples of Christ

  1. Sex is, for me, simply never a solo activity any longer. Its purpose is to grow a couple in intimacy with one another. MO is purely selfish and cheapens the power of sex by turning it into something it was never meant to be. It is performed in isolation (at best) and in the presence of many illusory others (at worst). MO may be acceptable for some, but I do not see any way it can be for the addict.
     
    Keli, XandeXIV and CPilot like this.
  2. XandeXIV

    XandeXIV Fapstronaut

    Well done! Excellent progress

    However you or others answer this, I would say celebrate the togetherness with your wife regardless of what it means for your battle with PMO. In itself it's a wonderful thing for you to experience and I'm really happy to hear that you have been able to do so recently. Its purpose is not to help you overcome your battle but for your and your wife's enjoyment. If things do get tricky when times like these don't happen, it is bad in the sense that it could lead to sin, but I would also say that's a normal temptation and you shouldn't blame yourself for it. Time apart will always lead us to temptation... what's good or bad is how we manage that temptation.

    I think this also relates to Tao's answer to your next question (which I will come to shortly)... togetherness with your wife - though primarily important for its own sake - can be a reminder of what intimacy (sexual or others) is supposed to me. So I would say try to remember this when you are tempted to MO or PMO. These two things are not selfless, intimate activities and therefore they can never replace any time of togetherness with your wife regardless of whether that togetherness is sexual or not.

    I was going to answer this more for PMO before I realised you just mention 'MO' here. In any case why I don't MO, by extension, applies also to why I don't also PMO.

    Firstly for me there is an extent to which I simply can't explain it. God has put it on my heart not to do it anymore and words can't do justice to the change He has made in this sense. This doesn't mean I'm free from it - I live on the assumption I could fail any time - but the point is my heart is significantly more against it than it ever was, to the extent that most of the time I'm not even resisting anything. I just don't want to do it.

    But this followed from a lot of reflection on reasons I can express, that when I came to understand completely in concert with one another one day, the penny dropped and my heart was in a better place.

    1. Firstly there is the above point about it not being a truly intimate activity and being a completely selfish act.
    2. Then there's the fact that even if I am not using P, I'm still thinking about it. I'm still using real women who I am not married to as objects in fantasies they have no consented to. Even if I think about fictional women, I am forming emotional bonds with them that I should be forming with a real, in-the-flesh wife. In MO, with or without P, I'm trying to have a taster of something I ultimately can't have - intimate sexual relationships - emphasis on the plural - with women who are not my wives.
    3. Each episode of such fantasies will never be enough and I will always want more, whether taking the fantasy to a new extreme or actually turning to P, and these are just more steps to something I can't have. I realised therefore that it's all just so futile. Any sexual activity outside marriage is just a stepping stone towards something that God forbids (and of course each step is forbidden in itself anyway). I think this realisation ultimately reinforced the realisation of how selfish it all was too.
    4. It serves no true purpose outside sexual gratification either. We might say it helps us relax, but this is where points in my signature come in. If we rely on MO to calm us down or help us cope, we will only be more stressed without it in the future. The idea that stress leads to (P)MO is a lie. The truth is that (P)MO leads to stress.

    A lot of the points on futility are covered in the SPAM REMOVED (spam code #001) - REPORT TO MODERATION online book I recommended, though worded differently.
     
    Tao Jones likes this.
  3. Rebooter2022

    Rebooter2022 Fapstronaut

    Damn it. See sig.

    I feel like this is going to kill me. Just can't get free of MO. Arg. (NB It is without fantasy.) I just don't seem to have enough resolution that it is wrong. Or maybe the consequences aren't bad enough for me, even though I tell my wife about it.

    I just want to be free of the obsession. I am sick of worrying about it, feeling bad about it, trying not to do it, then doing it. Sometimes it feels like it would just be easier if I just accepted it, and then stopped thinking about it so much.

    How many days would it take for the obsession to go away, or to die down significantly enough for my quality of life to improve? 90 days not doing it? 365?

    I had a look at the Easy book, XandeXIV, thank you. Mainly about PMO, but maybe some of it still relevant for MO.
     
  4. What are you looking for from MO? Are you finding it? Is it delivering on the promise you are believing with no down side?
     
  5. Rebooter2022

    Rebooter2022 Fapstronaut

    Good questions.

    From MO (with no concurrent fantasy, as far as possible, especially about anyone other than my wife), I think I am looking for an O, and relief from sexual tension it if O is not available another way + relief from the compulsion to do .

    It does deliver the first, and, for a time, the second.

    Does it have downsides?

    Quite possibly: Shame. Lower self-esteem. Numbness. My wife having a lower view of me (because as per our agreement I always tell her). The knowledge that I do not have enough self-control not to do it. The nagging doubt that I could get free from doing it again. Investment in the addiction and obsession so that the compulsion to MO comes back stronger later. Possibly less frequent and lower quality sex. Stronger porn cravings in the weeks following it.

    The trouble is, lots of these downsides I can doubt, and that's where rationalisation of the compulsion to do it again can kick in...

    Any thoughts? Anyone got any more info on the downsides of MO?

    There is research out there that says that if people MO they are more likely to be unhappy. But it's not clear what the correlation is--what the cause is.

    I guess I just need to decide for myself.

    At the end of the day it seems to come down to a choice of pain:

    The pain of having done it, with the shame and doubt and lower self-worth and heightened obssession + compulsion that brings, which probably gets worse over time.
    OR
    The pain of not doing it, with growing in self-control and self-esteem and increased ability to engage with the rest of life that brings, which probably gets better over time.

    If that is the choice, it seems obvious which one to go for.

    But damn is it difficult. At least for me.

    And I just seem to go back and forth like a madman. I can't seem to just stick to one choice.

    That is probably addiction.
     
    Wilderness Wanderer likes this.
  6. One thing that helped me in this regard was to begin viewing O as something that belonged only in the context of intimacy with my wife. I repeated this as a truth to myself: Engaging in O solo only led to problems and robbed my wife of a gift that properly belongs to her. Over time, as I replaced the lies in my thinking with this truth, the idea of solo O began to seem very odd, and my inclination for the practice waned. Also, MO only and always led back to P for me, and P is what I have committed never to return to. Now I can see that MO and P were both tied up in lust, and lust is truly the thing that needed excised from my heart and mind. Today, the practice of MO seems bizarre and makes me feel a little unsettled to even consider it. There is nothing there that I want any longer. Whatever small pleasure I may have once enjoyed in MO seems a small, petty thing in light of all I have gained by being rid of it.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
  7. CPilot

    CPilot Fapstronaut

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    During the course of my years of sin, I carried with me unceasing shame and guilt. I am a Catholic and over the years, I contritely confessed my ugly sin to a few priests and one or two of them advised me to consider the bible versus concerning the story of the prodigal son. Specifically, they wanted me to focus on how wonderful the son must have felt when the father immediately forgave him without condition.

    Their point seemed to be that I needed to embrace the beauty and joy of God's forgiveness and relinquish myself from guilt and shame as part of my healing process but I was unwilling to do so. I felt that my shame and guilt was needed in order to prevent myself from recommitting this sin. How wrong I was!

    Shame and guilt were only effective in prompting me to start another reboot. They were completely ineffective in helping me to sustain the process. However, the product of sin is shame and even thinking solely of one's wife while MO is still a sin. If we were to watch ourselves on video committing the act of MO I think it would be evoke feelings of disgust and humiliation. This is because we are not meant to use our bodies in this way. God created us in His own image. What an incredible thing humans are, shouldn't we treat ourselves with the respect with which God created us?

    Please be assured, since I have found freedom from this sin, I have found freedom from debilitating guilt and shame and this feeling of freedom is so much better than any session of MO ever was.
     
    Rebooter2021, Tao Jones and XandeXIV like this.
  8. Rebooter2022

    Rebooter2022 Fapstronaut

    Thank you. Powerful shares.

    Huge P cravings right now.

    It feels like it is the best thing ever.

    It feels like I have to have it.

    It feels like I will never be able to focus on anything else in my life properly.

    It feels...but that doesn't mean it is.

    Have texted some fellows. Need to go out for a run when I can, do some step work.

    Been struggling in my faith lately. God please help me.
     
    Wilderness Wanderer likes this.
  9. Each lie of temptation can be countered with truth from our Father. We never need to let the lie take root in our hearts; we can always combat it with truth!

    It feels like it is the best thing ever, but that is a lie. The truth is that the good feeling lasts only for a moment, and then the reality sets is of just how empty and hollow PMO is -- and always will be.

    It feels like you have to have it, but that is a lie. The truth is that there is nothing there to have. It is all an illusion. In truth, it possesses you. We must not allow this, for the sake of our very souls.

    It feels like you cannot focus on anything else, but that is a lie. The truth is that it is P that robs you of your ability to focus. The longer you pay attention to this distraction, the longer your ability to focus will remain fragmented and broken.

    You know the Truth. Keep your gaze fixed on him, to the exclusion of all else. Faith is our right response to God's revealing of himself. He is speaking to you now. How will you respond to his voice?
     
    CPilot and Wilderness Wanderer like this.
  10. CPilot

    CPilot Fapstronaut

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    Billy Graham's daughter once said that God is a gentleman. He will not foist himself upon us if we don't want Him to. I think God gives us that choice each minute of each day. If we choose P, He allows us to do so. If we cut away the inhibitions of our heart and open it up to Him, He will fill it with the Father's love. A house divided against itself cannot stand and a man cannot worship two masters. We can choose purity, peace and unconditional love offered by the creator of the universe or we can choose the bright shiny package wrapped up by the devil to conceal animalistic, drooling, ugly lust with its inevitable guilt and shame. The choice is really just that stark.
     
    Tao Jones likes this.
  11. RedeemedIowan

    RedeemedIowan Fapstronaut

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    We don’t grow in times of comfort, we grow in times of discomfort. Embrace the pain. That’s the pain of you getting tougher.

    I was addicted to MO before marriage. I was constantly asking my wife for HJ’s after we got married. This helped to shift my sexual dependence to her and got me out of the habit. It also made me dependent on her for joy, which wasn’t a terribly healthy thing. But better for both of us than solo MO. This doesn’t really constitute advice just trying to relate.
     
  12. Rebooter2022

    Rebooter2022 Fapstronaut

    Thanks folks.

    I ask my wife for HJs from time to time when I am struggling and sex is not possible and she almost never gives me them, which is completely within her rights and is totally fine. Maybe 2 in 12 years of marriage. They were extremely enjoyable though!

    But if I say 'I have to have one', 'I need one', I am lying.

    I've realised lately that the addiction is all in my brain.

    My body does not need the porn. It does not even need the O.

    But boy does my brain think it does. I know that I won't die if I don't get what I want, but I really don't enjoy not being able to have something I want.

    How to change the want? How to want something else?

    Surrender, I guess.

    I wish I could just pay attention to normal life and be mindful of it more. I find it so difficult. I don't inhabit the real world. I inhabit a false invisible world of battling with temptation to replay images and frustration and shame and angst. Having OCD does not help. Looking forward to starting some more therapy on Monday.
     
    Tao Jones likes this.
  13. Rebooter2022

    Rebooter2022 Fapstronaut

    Help! Wife has had a recurrence of a long term sickness problem. No marital sex going to be happening for a while.

    Day 62 no P. P cravings have calmed down at the moment, thank God.

    Day 11 no M. M cravings are massive at the moment. I feel like I am going to lose my mind. It's like my brain (and body) are screaming at me to have an O. It's constant. I'm going to go crazy.
     
  14. We do not need O to live. Many live O-free lives that are rich and full, in perfect contentment. So, why do you think it is that you have made O to be so important in yours?

    You are not going to go crazy. Your brain just needs to adapt to a new reality. It will. The difficulty will lessen if you let it happen. If you keep chasing O at your own hands, you will never be free of the compulsion. You can master this. God will provide you all the strength you need to do whatever is required.
     
  15. Rebooter2022

    Rebooter2022 Fapstronaut

    Welp, stumbled again (see sig). Get back up again.

    What do I gain by staying sober from MO?

    Some frustration, yes, but also, eventually: Peace of mind about the topic. Not having to be preoccupied with or worry about whether to do it or not. Freedom from the compulsion and obssession. Better self-esteem. Less shame. Not having to be suspicious that my wife probably thinks less of me. More nocturnal emissions! (As a safeguard against genuine 'frustration' and physical 'build-up'.) Energy to rechannel elsewhere. Not having to contemplate lying to my wife by not telling her about it when I have said I will tell her if I do it. Not having to deal with the shame of telling her I have done it and failed to stick to my resolution again. More self-respect. More respect from my wife. Restored self-confidence. Restored and trust from my wife. Better sex (the evidence actually all points to this). A sense of being in accord with plain readings of Matthew 6 and 1 Corinthians 7. Possibly greater overall happiness. A feeling of being closer to God. More drive to love, pursue, serve, woo and seduce my wife. More self-control. Less brain fog. Less susceptibility to lust triggers and less frequency and intensity of temptation. More brain space for other things.
     
  16. CPilot

    CPilot Fapstronaut

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    Hang in there, it gets easier! In my experience, desire for sexual pleasure doesn't go away but it does reduce to a level commensurate with its importance. Certainly, a loving married couple can be gifted with the act of sex but I find that now that I have eliminated P from my life, sex has become more of a fulfilling act of love, for both of us, than short lived gratification.
     
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  17. Rebooter2022

    Rebooter2022 Fapstronaut

    Over 90 days no P now! Woohoo! Right now the urges are very low, even often non-existent.

    However, they may return, and in particular they may return because after 26 days since the last time I cracked 3 days ago and did MO. See sig.

    I still can't seem to beat this, even with a 12 step group.

    What do you guys make of this quote below? It seems to be a marriage expert saying that MO (no P) will statistically increase frequency of sex. Please help me straighten out my thinking on this. I have my counter-thoughts but I just want to see how other people would interpret this.

    "In general, when one partner is a habitual porn user, the couple will have sex less often. This is not so when masturbation is used without porn; in that case, couples are likely to have sex more often."

    -Gottman, John Mordechai . The Seven Principles For Making Marriage Work: A practical guide from the international bestselling relationship expert (p. 199). Orion. Kindle Edition.
     
  18. I'd need to understand better how the author is envisioning that working. It seems like a non-sequitur without additional context.

    One thing I can say with certainty: If MO is combined with lust, it will never be a helpful practice. If MO can become solely mechanical and the mind not engaged at all during it, I suppose there may be room for it in a healthy life -- but, in that case, I can't help but ask: What's the point?
     
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  19. CPilot

    CPilot Fapstronaut

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    I can't say that this statement is true or false. It may be that frequent MO creates a desire by one partner of the marriage for more sex. If one partner has a drive for more sex but the other does not, will sex be a loving act between a married couple or will it be a purely physical act where one of the partners is simply fulfilling a request or a duty? Love doesn't require sex anymore than sex requires love. Mutually desired sex between a loving married couple can be a beautiful enhancement to love but is there mutual desire if one parter is desirous and the other is simply performing a duty?
     
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  20. Rebooter2022

    Rebooter2022 Fapstronaut

    100 days no P, woot!

    However, still can't get past MO. See sig.

    The author is writing about porn, in an extremely influential and well-known secular marriage book. He says that statistically, husbands who look at porn have less sex, and have less satisfying sex. But he then says that husbands who MO without porn are statistically likely to have more sex.

    Sometimes I have recalled this statement, and it has led to me doing MO.

    But I am not sure that it is true in my case. My wife does not like me doing MO (and neither does my better self), and has asked that I tell her when it happens. So if I MO, either I have to lie (which I don't do) and be trapped in guilt and shame that way, or I tell her, which makes her sad and turns her off. The statement from the book (which is ambiguous) is also talking about what is statistically more likely. But just because it is statistically more likely, does not mean it is true for me or in the case of my marriage. I definitely remember reading an article one time which found that partnered sex raises the likelihood of MO happening, because men use MO as a substitute for sex when they cannot have it. But that does not mean that doing MO will increase instances of mutual sex. Also, the marriage book does not mention people who do not masturbate at all.

    Also, viewing everything through the lens of 'what will lead to the most sex' is still a symptom of being totally obssessed with sex and worshiping sex as a god. Isn't it?

    Thoughts?

    Also, here's another one that tricks me and trips me up, right before I fall:

    I have been a premature ejaculator for much of my marriage (though not always, thankfully). A book I got on it (one of the only medically informed and senisble ones I could find) talked about practicing techniques to overcome this, including some techniques involving masturbation.

    Do I need to do MO in order to be able to last longer in bed?
     

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