Bad advice on the forum

This is exactly the conclusion my husband has come to- he will always need to be cognizant of his weakness to relapse and will need to make recovery a life long endeavor. That group meetings will be a part of his life from here on out., That helping others who are not as far along as him will be for life and is part of his recovery. He said he has learned so much by helping others and that it really helps him in his recovery.

 

I never said everyone who drifted away from AA is successful, just that some certainly are, I know a couple myself that drifted away yet don't drink to this day. I feel like you're just not understanding what I'm trying to say, or I'm just saying poorly.

Let's just move on from this, we're all here to fight PMO addiction, not argue. Peace brother

 

Saved mine.

 

It's only my usual way to talk on important topics. I often differ from opinions of other people and they feel that I argue with them but it's not my intention to argue but to show another perspective or to show my doubts or at least hesitation in something what most people believe in thinking that it's absolutely true. Using this method which is natural for me I found the way to get rid of pmo because nobody on my former forum believed it can work what I started then using. To find something new and working we must say good bye to prevailing opinions and beliefs - this is my way of thinking.

Question to Andrew-B and ChrisJord

Why AA hasn't helped you to quit pmo? Because IMO it doesn't matter which addiction we have. If some system like AA gives its members a good working mechanism to beat alcoholism so they (dry alkoholics ) seem to have the way to get out from another addictions. As I was on some AA meetings I felt distinctly that they say all the same what I a pmo experienced. The only exemption was that they used alkohol to experience some relief and I the drug dopamine which came into being from me watching some arousing material and mast.

 

So it seems that focusing on only one addiction - only alcohol (AA), only drugs, only sex (SAA), only gambling, only eating disorder etc. works less effective than taking all addictions possible in one meeting group because the causes are the same, results the same (maybe only difference is in simultaneously additional destroying physical body organs like in case of alcohol or drugs which is rather not the case in pmo or gambling). So it should be all addiction groups working on the 12 step program IMO. Because the addictive mechanism keeps living even when we get rid of one specific addiction not touching another addictions in us. Or even worse - in stead of one beaten addiction we can acquire another one compensating for the lost which seems to be visible in chain smokers who beating smoking mostly start overeating .

 

PMO addiction is unique in several ways:

1) It's perfectly legal. There is zero chance of any societal consequences, there's no criminal activity, no eventual DUI. My own DUI arrest was my bottom, it was the wake-up call I needed to seek help. With PMO addiction there is no "bottom", no outside wake-up call, no arrest, you could just do this forever if you want.

2) It's 100% private. This is a solo activity, hidden away and a well guarded secret, nobody would ever know, until you inevitably suffer PIED with a female. Alcoholism often starts in secret too, but it doesn't stay that way. You will end up drunk around friends and loved ones, alcoholism is a downward journey to an unavoidable bottom.

3) It's taboo. Nobody at large talks openly about this. I know a few have, such as Terry Crews and recently Billie Eilish, but compare that to thousand and thousand of celebrities admitting drug or alcohol addictions, and often told how brave they are for coming forward. Telling friends and family you've developed a problem with alcohol is tough, but in the end you get support, understanding, even forgiveness. Telling friends and family you're addicted to jerking off to porn every night would most likely elicit looks of horror and disgust from the same group that gave you a hug when stopping booze. Even on this forum, we are all 100% using made-up I.D.s, it's just too taboo a subject to talk openly about, maybe ever.

4) The steps don't transfer. As Andrew said above, all the steps don't really transfer, some do, but not all. I know some guys in here are able to bring their wives into this struggle, but this can often be a solo battle. Recovery from alcoholism, at least via AA, isn't that way at all. It's very much a group activity, with support and sponsorship, kind words from friends and family. One of the core tenets of AA is strength through unity. We have a version of that unity here on NoFap, but seeing a grown man break down in tears at an AA meeting leaves a mark on you that no online meeting or chat could possibly match, just is what it is.

That's not to say this isn't winnable, it's just that all the AA stuff, while helpful, doesn't translate over to PMO addiction. Much of it is the same feeling though, AA was the first time I found hope after several years of alcoholism, it was a light at the end of the tunnel and my way out of that terrible pit of alcoholic hell. NoFap is the same for me now in this struggle, it's the first time I've found real success, I couldn't have done it without this place. I have the same feelings of intense gratitude here that I did with AA when on the road to recovery.

 

If you filter out comments based on what some people might find offensive (i.e. filter out what is "bad" and only keeping what is "good") is restricting free speech. Free speech means that anyone is entitled to their opinion, and by labeling opinions as "disinformation" / "misinformation" and stop spreading "bad advice" as in this thread that is borderline censorship. To have an open dialog all opinions are valid. What is a bad advice for one person might be a good advice for me. We have the ability to reject or accept ideas with critical thinking.

A growing trend in 2022 is to cancel and label opinions that is not viewed as "good". An example is that they removed the dislike button on YouTube a few months back.

Agreed?

 

It seems you make perfect points on why so many can’t quit. Except it can escalate to illegal activity, child porn, escorts, rape.
Possibly many can’t quit because they continue to keep it secret, a solo activity when the opposite of addiction is connection. Hard to connect when you have a huge lie. It not too taboo to talk openly about it for those who have committed to recovery, however I agree one must be cautious about who they talk with much more so than alcohol. If one of the cores is strength through unity and that’s what’s missing with pa/sa then perhaps you have your answer why so few get into recovery. You’ve got to have real life friends, family who help.

 

I still don't see why you quoted me to say that.

 

I can honestly say that I have read a post today by one member telling another one that he could "tell" by the way the poster had worded his thread, that he was going to relapse and then replied with a ridiculously, and unnecessarily long post about why he is correct and the poster was wrong and wasting his time.

This does not happen often though and I have experienced only positive messages from other addicts since joining and starting my journey to sobriety 15 days ago.

Take advice on here with a pinch of salt. There are very few members on here with actual counselling experience. This entire process is trial and error for all of us and some people are going to give you advice based on their own experiences and not necessarily something that is tailor-made for you. We are all trying to fight our way to eventual sobriety.

Good luck and know that basically everyone on here is rooting for your success.

 

I can usually tell when someone is heading towards a relapse. Especially if I’ve followed their journal for a long time. In fact I followed two journals and told my husband I thought both men were lying and had relapsed ( both at different times) one lied for months before he finally came clean and one was a year. Now, I would never tell someone they were going to relapse because at any given moment they can choose help and choose not to. I can tell when my husband is heading towards a relapse - his addiction cycle is easy to recognize now that I understand it. It took him far longer to recognize his cycle.

 

Not always is it trial and error. AA methods are almost 100 years old but they originate from the evangelical 'Oxford Group' which based on the New Testament so you have already something which is 2000 years old.
What I use, for example, comes from different centuries - some things are 2000 years old , another 1600 , 800, 400 and the newest ones are 150 years old. So it was not my trial and error process I simply took something ready what was thought over and described in old times. Maybe the only my own trial and error was to use this in pmo but even this can be questionable - they didn't have porn industry attacking you potentially every day but sex addiction and hedonism have always been.

 

What is the difference?

 

Part I
I finally had the time to go back and read this entire thread and dissect it. My thoughts on the matter for what it is worth!

I think the correct answer you’re looking for “is to propagate it”. Remember, they’re addicts and betrayed partners themselves. Not professionals.

Nothing like having validation for your addiction to continue engaging in it. It is the betrayed partner who is lacking and needs validation, not the addict. The addict needs to hold themselves accountable, own it, and take responsibility for it.

Yep. You got that right. There is none.

Of course it is. Isn’t anything we want to overcome though? Besides, we want confirmation bias to confirm for us that we are “normal” do we not? What’s wrong with being “normal”? Everything!

Yeah, that hasn’t worked out so well for anyone who has tried it. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.

And from what I learned, anyone who believes that their recovery is ridiculously easy will almost certainly fail to recover. If it were that easy, everyone who wanted to quit would quit.

Ha! Imagine that!

And yet they are most subjective at it. In my country, we call that censorship. I know for some, that isn’t the policy. For others? Not so much. I’ve had it happen to me so many times now, I just ignore them. Some lifelong friendships I have made with others, some of the most knowledgeable people I know, who refuse to participate here any longer have left because of it .

I think that there is plenty of good science. I also think that it is so overshadowed with junk science and circular logic, that it renders it difficult if not impossible for the average person to comprehend it. The science is there, but so too are those who have their own hidden self-serving agendas.

I wholeheartedly agree with this 100%!

And THIS! This is so brilliantly written. When we move sex off of the top of our priority list, and place it further down the proverbial food chain of our most precious desires, we all end up benefitting from it anyway. Our counselor told my husband to stop worrying about sex and to focus on intimacy. He said in our program that “you’ll have more sex in greater quantity and greater quality than you ever imagined possible”. My husband found this to be absolutely true.

Unbelievable! What a completely [...] thing to say. Why don’t you go pick up trash? Of course we’re dealing with our own demons…demons you brought into our relationship, so please spare me your [...] self-righteous indignation towards those of us who have been victimized by your addiction, belligerence and arrogance. In case you hadn’t noticed, this place is not only for addiction, but those of us betrayed by it as well.

Yeah, that’s pretty sound logic…for a person wanting to continue being an addict. Let me know how that works out for you.

Yep! Starting with yours!

 

Part II

Exactly!

I believe this to be almost 100% accurate. I say almost only because I know of not one single instance where it wasn’t true, but anything’s possible.

Exactly! People who tend to say that shit also believe in that narrative in themselves. Sadly, one of these days, likely on their deathbed, they’ll realize it too late. Either way, you’re not wrong.

BTW, love the “fatphobic” comment. LOL!

Do we have the same advisor? That’s something he would say.

Very wise feedback!

Haven’t thought of that. I’m gonna try it!

Woulda, coulda, shoulda…who’s to say? This place doesn’t adhere to AA guidelines (unfortunately).

Bingo!

People tend to use “setback” or the same thing as a “slip up”, reset, and relapse interchangeably. They’re not the same thing, nor should they be treated the same way. Sure, he failed, but what do we do when we fail? We stop, take a deep breath, dust ourselves off, and get back in the saddle again. That’s how we learn to succeed. There is a rhyme and reason to it. I think our counselor called it a method to the madness. A one time event is not a relapse, but a setback. A relapse is a full blown out of the box “I’m watching porn, I’m jerking off, and I’m orgasming over and over again” and usually more so than before. A reset is what we do when we start all over again from the very beginning. We can do that any time we feel the need to do so. Remember, recovery is a process…not a single one time event.

True dat!

Yeah, it’s simply a lie. A lie by any other name is still a damned lie. Let’s not pretend that because “everybody does it” that it’s ok to lie to your partner. Of all the people in the world you need to be most honest with, it is your partner, period.

 

Part III

Sounds a lot like an excuse for the behavior to me. It doesn’t matter why they lied. It only matters that they did.

Such great wisdom here! Exactly!

Right! Because “we” addicts know what’s best for our “betrayed” wives. After all, we should. We were the one who betrayed them.

I’m going to take exception to this and here is why. First of all, it is gaslighting to insinuate that you have the first clue what a woman, or anyone else for that matter, thinks. It’s a preposterous notion. We don’t see it so much as ignoring us as we do stabbing us thousands of times like death of a thousand cuts. That’s what we see. Ignoring us is just a symptom of the deeper pain we experience.

Are we really gonna split hairs over this? I mean, if we were to tabulate just exactly how much time our husbands spent on pornography versus how much time they spent on everything else combined, I’d say yes, the amounts of money spent on this foolishness in what I learned was “opportunity cost” is quite staggering. Sorry, I just cannot agree with this viewpoint.

I’d say it’s “normal”, but it’s not healthy, and just because it may be typical doesn’t make it the best option. Doesn’t matter whether they are addicted or not. This is another excuse for the asinine behavior. It essentially says “well, men are just that way”! Do you care to be stereotyped that way? I wouldn’t.

Call them whatever you want. We call them desirable. Healthy men also have a sense of self-sacrifice for their children. I would die for mine, and I’m quite certain my husband would too. Your idea that this is “nature” provided is ridiculous. I will, however, concede that finding an unselfish man is hard to find, but they are out there. And no, they are not saints. They are just good men.

Let’s take a look at this from another angle. If she’s seeing in him that everything is lining up naturally like it should, why would she believe that he isn’t telling the truth? All of us have the ability to discern the truth with others. Not all of us have learned how to do it though. We were never taught. But I was taught, and I was also taught not to ignore my gut instincts anymore. I don’t. If it feels wrong, even if I can’t pinpoint it, rest assured, it is.

 

Part IV

Little boys indeed!

Of course you can. Just as your addiction is fair game for her, so too is hers for you. She isn’t the repository for free passes. I think our counselor said it best when he said “you can’t judge another by their actions and judge yourself by your intentions”. It doesn’t work that way. I do take exception to the idea that “she inherited it from her parents. We don’t inherit an addiction. We may inherit genes that predisposes us to the addiction, but we don’t inherit the addiction itself. There are too many other factors that play into us actually becoming addicted. It is quite a complex array of contributing variables.

No argument there.

I don’t know where you’re getting your information from, but my information that I received in our program says:

“Sex addiction is prevelent in 3-6% of the general population in the United States of America. Of those, the ratio of male:female sex addiction is 3-5% males for every one female or one out of every 20-33 sex addicts is female. The majority of sex addicts were abused physically at 72%, sexually at 81%, and psychologically (mentally & emotionally) at 97%; a clear indication that most sexual addiction originates from abuse. Dual addictions were reported at 5% gambling, 26% shopping, 38% for eating disorders, and 43% substance, and while there were others, that’s not the point. What is clear is that as a general rule, in most cases, more than one addiction is present simultaneously. 87% came from dysfunctional families where at least one family member had a history of addiction. Male sex addicts tend to engage in voyeuristic and anonymous sexual activities while female sex addicts tend to engage in exhibition, pain, fantasy, and trading for sex. It was concluded that sex addiction heavily contributed to the spread of STDs.”

The bottom line? If you’re gonna quote stats, please take the time to research and confirm for yourself to ensure your stats are valid and correct. Otherwise, it relegates anything else you have to say as somewhat meaningless. I can’t speak for the OP, but this is the kinda stuff we’re talking about when we say “bad advice”.

If “sex” is the most rewarding thing there is for a human, that explains a lot. There in lies the problem.

You can hypothesize all you want. Dr. Patrick Carnes, the pioneer of sexual addiction, and the world’s leading expert on the subject will tell you the number is around a 5% success rate. Believe whatever you want. He has the statistical analysis to support it. People who are not present here anymore left, not because they didn’t feel the need to be here, but because they got sick and tired of the fielding the entourage of endless bullshit from people not only intent on not recovering, but hell bent on keeping others from recovering as well. The environment became too toxic for them, so they set a boundary, and left.

Believe it. Don’t believe it. That’s entirely up to you. You’re right though. Everyone would benefit from them being here, only don’t expect them to come back. There isn’t just some serious wreckage present on a regular basis. It’s a massive train wreck.

Beating this addiction doesn’t make you a Saint. It makes you human again.

How “June Cleaver” of you! Make certain we wear a dress, makeup, high heels, have your dinner hot and ready when you come home from a hard days work too. SMH!

“Me man!” “You woman!” “Me clean house!” “You master!” Do you have any idea just how draconian all of your stereotyping is? I can’t speak for other women here, but I find this whole dialog degrading, demeaning and disgusting. Inborn potential my ass!

Awe, did that praise of us wear you out? I’m so sorry! SMH again! Perhaps you would do well to research John Gottman. Here’s a link to help you out:

https://5lovelanguages.com/

Did you read that on a death certificate somewhere? LOL, “Cause of Death”...”Worked themselves to death”.

It simply doesn’t matter whether you agree or not. Suffice it to say, the evidence overwhelmingly supports this hypothesis. We will gladly switch roles for a month and see how well you perform the functions of a woman who sacrifices everything for her partner and family.

Now that was a giant leap to nowhere.

 

Part V

In one single paragraph here, you single handedly invalidate what most women feel to be true. Let’s be honest about it. And somehow, you support it by claiming you have been married for 30 years and have two daughters? We call that gaslighting where I come from. Speaking of disservice…

Yeah, well there are SA, SAA, SLAA groups etc. that do the same thing for PMO that AA does for alcohol. You say you don’t need it as much, but I think perhaps you are blatantly ignoring Step 12 when you claim you don’t need it as much. If it weren’t needed, following the AA guidelines you mention, it would be called a 11 Step program.

Interesting. I’d like to know where you got this.

You’re not wrong. Well except a little confusing on the dopamine part. It is the drug for all addictions.

You’re onto something. Yes, all of them should be consolidated under one umbrella. Our counselor is focused on that initiative BTW. I would like to reinforce that whole physical component you speak of. All of them, every last one, has devastating effects on not only the mind and spirit, but it reeks havoc on the body as well.

You have no idea! It’s not perfectly legal. Far from it. There are sufficient numbers of people incarcerated for it as we speak. To say there is “no bottom”, “no wakeup call”, “no arrest”, is just blatantly wrong.

This is also untrue. We know. We just didn’t know that we knew, but we did. We learn to watch out for the red flags, the warning signs, that tell us that something just doesn’t add up. Eventually, we figure it out.

Well, we have our hypocritical judging society to thank for that. People don’t want to disclose it because in doing so, they set themselves up for the discrimination that comes with it. If you think navigating recovery is tough, do it alone. Yes, there is a deep dark stigma associated with it absent from other forms of addiction.

You might be right about this except for the transferability part. All of it is transferable. It only substitutes one for another (ie your support group becomes your SA group or nofap instead of your family and friends in an AA group). There is tremendous shame associated with PMO unlike that of other addictions. However, that doesn’t preclude one form following the steps and doing so with different players.

I think filtering comments on the basis of offensiveness in our so politically correct social movement is just stupid. Yes, that is censorship. However, when someone gives “bad advice” which is done so here, it is prudent for us to step up to the plate and provide a dissenting opinion. Let’s face it. Addicts believe and say some really stupid shit. Oftentimes, so do betrayed partners. It stands to reason given we are so mind fucked by the current state of our relationship with them. No, not all opinions are valid. Some are just stupid, and should be called out as such. There is a difference in pointing out stupid advice and calling someone stupid because if it weren’t for the brain dysfunctionality, they wouldn’t have made such as stupid ass comment.

Yeah, and they (all social media) has gotten way out of hand censoring what information they will allow on their platforms if the powers that be at these organizations happen to dislike what it is the individual is saying. I don’t want these people policing what I can receive in the form of information. That is way more media control than I am comfortable with. It is the equivalent of Nazi book burnings. They’re setting a very dangerous precedent.

YES!
Agreed

 

There are some very interesting points being made in this thread, but OP, I think you need to remember that at the end of the day, your recovery is 100% your responsibility. You succeed or fail by your own efforts based on your own decisions.

Many people here try to give their advice and god bless them for taking the time to try and help another person. However, they are doing so based on limited knowledge of you, your particular situation, and carry their own biases (myself included). Therefore, you have to expect that a lot of the information you process here is going to be irrelavant if not outright wrong for aiding your addiction. That's why it's up to you to take the time and process the information that's provided to you to figure out what is actually useful. And even that is not perfect. We all make the mistake of following bad advice on occasion, but that's okay as long as we are thoughtful and try our best to take away the lessons our failures teach us.

In general, rather than placing all the blame on the person who gave you advice that didn't work, I believe it's more productive to hold yourself accountable for following this advice. It's the difference between going "Well that guy gave me shit advice, I'm going to try someone elses" and "Well that guy's advice didn't work, but why did I think it would? Could/should I have known if I thought about it a bit more before acting on it? If I only know it's wrong now that I've done it, what did I learn exactly that I can use to help shape future approaches?". The latter approach provides much more opportunity for growth whereas the former doesn't really help you grow as a person at all.

Good luck!

 

In most cases, if not in all , we don't need to know much about an addict, his particular situation in order to give good advice to him because the mechanisms of addictions ( causes and results in their lives) are the same. If you look at 12 step program for alcoholics then you'll see that the 12 steps are for all of them independent of the culture, country , age, family situation, education level etc. And it works - the 12 steps. But it doesn't work if the steps are done wrongly, with not much commitment. People are not so different, they act rather similarly. The are some patterns of behaviour. I got to know the few people who are successful in getting rid of pmo and the things they do or did are similar or sometimes very similar. Once again - best working advice give only people who managed to maintain a long lasting sobriety. I read that in case of addictions it's at least 5 years but IMO the longer sobriety period the best advice.

Of course, there are cases ( I don't know what is the percentage) that one can have a significantly long sobriety but (almost) no recovery. The result is that such a person is very difficult ( a burden) for other people, especially their family. I mean weak anger management, always criticizing, always unhappy, nervous etc. and often they can discover another addiction to compensate the loss of the former one because such a person still isn't able to use healthy ways to reduce their bad emotions, thoughts, to relief from stress. But a good observer or reader can discover such a person. You know - 'what inside that in the mouth' is the proverb in my country. It's enough to listen to them or read their posts. Such addicts are IMO often to see on the so called challenges - 30 days challenge , 60, 90.... as if only the sobriety could heal them. If only sobriety, the people feel horrible without pmo and emanate these feelings to the enviroment.

It's like generally in life - the best sportspersons ( world champions ) become the best successful coatches and produce the next generations of winners because they know the best working methods. The same in job experience etc. Who can tell you the best advice in marriage? A book author, someone having 7 year marriage or someone who has 60 year long happy marriage. Who will you listen to?