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Stumbling upon anti-porn recovery articles

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Jm22, Sep 30, 2022.

  1. Jm22

    Jm22 Fapstronaut

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    I've just stumbled upon this article on a site called allthatsinteresting (a website I usually read to go to wind down).

    https://allthatsinteresting.com/church-shameware

    It's mainly aimed at the church. But what got me was how it's slagging off all of these accountability apps like they're oppressive or wrong.

    I think it's just such a weird shock coming from the perspective of someone who has had to use support systems similar to this just to pull myself away from p for even a day to see it get treated like such a bad thing.

    It makes me remember that the majority of people don't see this as a struggle and aren't effected or down the rabbit hole with it. It's very weird, and I wish p addiction was a more accepted and talked about phenomenon. Ygm?
     
    desmond318 and Meshuga like this.
  2. Meshuga

    Meshuga Fapstronaut

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    Yeah, I get you. On the show “The Orville” they did an episode on porn addiction, and covered it fairly well. It was resolved all in one episode, though. Sometimes I see people speaking against P, but I wonder if it’s just the algorithms serving up what they know interests me. I get the sense most people think P addiction is made up.

    It is natural, not good but natural, to interpret anything an “other” group does is weird and problematic. Traditional, practicing Christians are an “other,” as far as most people are concerned, and since they say P is less than ideal, anything that combats it must be bad. P blockers and accountability apps might be a lifesaver to you, but the mainstream culture will just interpret it as invasive and creepy behavior to stop a pretend “problem.”
     
    TiredOfFailing and Chili Dog like this.
  3. OhWhenThe

    OhWhenThe Fapstronaut

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    I've learnt to accept that the vast majority of people don't believe in nofap or porn addiction and that trying to convince them otherwise is a waste of time. There's a clip on youtube from a popular US daytime show discussing the topic. The guy makes several good points but the woman just doesn't want to hear it, he asks her if gambling addiction is real and she says yes, so he then says so why is it possible to become addicted to a slot machine but not to pornography and her response was basically "because it's backed by science". That's the go-to retort for all these people. Tbh I don't even know what the science says on the topic these days but there are millions of people across the world trying(and mostly failing, let's be honest) to quit porn, they must be doing it for a reason. If porn/masturbation had absolutely zero negative side-effects then none of us bar those with moral/religious reasons would be trying to stop.

    It also doesn't help that the left promote porn under the guise of "sex positivity" and anyone who is against that is seen as sexually shaming/oppressive, or even anti-feminist.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
  4. I stumbled on the NoFap Wikipedia page today and was shocked by how negative the "Reception" section was.

    It makes out like this is some far-right recruitment site peddling racism and misogyny.

    From what I've seen so far there seems to be quite a diverse range of viewpoints on here, so it seemed a little unfair for them to so harshly demonize a site that is about positive self-improvement.
     
    Dave G 123 likes this.
  5. Of course it is.

    As a Christian, I can tell you this is nothing new. Anything that Christians believe that is counter to culture and requires people to examine the sin in their life and repent and turn away from that sin, is going to be hated and ridiculed without any real, deep thought about whether or not it's actually good advice.

    People don't like to be told that the thing they enjoy doing is actually morally wrong, and that they are committing a grave evil by doing it. So they have to ridicule it, or else they will start to feel guilt or shame that urges them to change, and they don't want to change and they don't want to feel guilt or shame because it's uncomfortable.

    It's the same old story we've seen for thousands of years. It's just interesting that non-Christians are seeing it, too, in regards to porn, because so many people here and elsewhere in the world who are not religious at all have abused porn for long enough that they have seen the consequences and found out that hey, those crazy Christian people were right... porn is bad and harmful and shouldn't be used.

    It's also inevitable that industries that make probably billions of dollars are going to smear anyone who tries to urge people to stop using those industries. If everybody in the world got a clue and realized how disgusting and vile and wrong pornography is, a whole lot of people would suddenly be making far less money.

    So there is great incentive -- both from the pocketbooks and the internal desire to not have to change or give up things you like or admit that you are doing something wrong -- to try to laugh at, mock, or even shut down sites like this and people who support sites like this.
     
  6. Jm22

    Jm22 Fapstronaut

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    I think what you guys are saying about how the outside world others it and instantly demonises it is true. As well as it being demonised because of all the money behind it. Things like this where there in an example of loads of people not understanding something that is having a really positive effect for a group of people that I'm included in is really humbling and makes me want to reasses a lot of the other preconceived notions or ideas that society has imprinted.
     
    Meshuga likes this.
  7. So, I read the article and it mostly talks about this one southern bapist church using porn blockers as a mechanic for member overreach. It's mostly about that with a brief paragraph towards the end about one researcher saying that using these apps "Doesn't make anyone feel better about themselves in the long term". I completely agree that churches should not require their members to use these apps with the leaders as accountability partners. At best, you'll be shamed for having a moment of weakness and at worst, its Orwellian surveillance. I didn't see anything in the article that suggests anti-nofap, though I agree that there is a anti-nofap sentiment across the internet.

    I'm pretty sure people outside of this site are saying that it's a far-right recruitment site because it's the cool thing to hate right now. It goes back to the whole echo chamber thing that people have warned us about since social media became so popular. If you stay in your bubble, then you can't learn new things.

    It's funny you mention that, because NoFap as a site was targeted by Big Porn with a lawsuit a few years back to scare us. I even donated what I could because I believed in it even if I wasn't 100% invested back then. It always comes back to money and lobbyists. Standard Oil did it in the 1910's-20's, cigarettes did it in the 50's-60's, Porn does it today, though I argue porn has a bigger hold on the populace as a whole because there's no drug quite like porn.

    Edit: Oh, I forgot about cereal and grain companies in the 80's-90's. remember the food pyramid? Yea the bottom is supposed to be veggies, not grains/carbs.
     
    onceaking likes this.
  8. Yeah, I remember that. I used to donate back then too.

    So many things come back to money. It's honestly disgusting. Don't even get me started on the "healthcare" industry. It's absolutely despicable how many things doctors and psychiatrists do because of money, rather than because it's what's best for their patients. The whole industry is based on so many lies, with calculated attacks on holistic medicine because if people actually heal their problems, they won't have to keep spending money on expensive pharmaceutical drugs.

    But I digress...
     
  9. Jm22

    Jm22 Fapstronaut

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    Is
    Out of interest, which countries helthcare system are you talking about?
     
  10. Well I live in the U.S., but I'm sure it's not just a U.S. thing.
     
  11. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

    That sentence made me think that the article was written by Christians complaining about secular anti-porn programs. There are Christians like that. I was a Christian when I first joined this site and I had Christians in one accountability group warning me to not join NoFap. They told me it was started by an atheist and most people on it aren't Christians so I should stay away from it. Of course, I ignored their advice. It's good that not all Christians are so close-minded.

    As for the article, it's extremely biased and I get tired of writing in the media like this. At uni, we're told to include opposing arguments in our essays and I hate how so many articles in the media don't do this.
     
    Jm22 likes this.
  12. I don't think it's necessarily "close minded" for Christians to think that it would be wiser to join a Christian accountability group.

    I mean, I've learned a lot here, but I would not be able to overcome this addiction without first seeking God and leaning in Him. That's not something this site or most of the people on this site agree with or support. I have done that privately, on my own, but I can see why some Christians might think that being on a site like this could lead you to leaving God out of the equation, which they don't think is wise.

    It's not always about people being "close minded." They might have valid reasons for their concerns.
     
  13. Meshuga

    Meshuga Fapstronaut

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    Church overreach is definitely one problem. Church tolerance for sin is another, and they have to balance themselves. It’s a tough maneuver, and it doesn’t surprise me when some churches take it further than I think appropriate. What I don’t see in secular coverage of the modern Church, or the Church at any time, is any sort of positive portrayal, or even an acknowledgment that a Christian lifestyle is a legitimate choice, with positive implications for the community or the individual. The takeaway from this article is, “The Southern Baptists are at it again, policing their people against a moral bogeyman, using shame and recrimination to bully and dominate their members.” That happens, but there’s no exploration into why the Southern Baptists might think P is a problem. We’re left to assume it’s because they are superstitious party poopers who glower and condemn anything that contradicts their ancient book, regardless of modern knowledge. There’s no balance for the single expert speaking against blocking apps, in an incredibly vague, global dismissal that isn’t true. We can find a fair number of people that feel a lot better having used blocking apps. And while it’s true that abstention from P is not enough to help a person “feel better about themselves,” as if that is the goal in the first place, it’s a necessary step in the broader ambition of removing the psychological hooks P has sunk into us. First you stop using P. Then you learn why you want to use it in the first place. Then you can go about exposing the lies and rebuilding your values, so there is no need for P and we can eliminate the cognitive dissonance Paul so eloquently discussed in Romans 7. Of course it’s a short article, not an in-depth investigative journalist project for Rolling Stone or TIME magazine. This, however, is the treatment Christians nearly always get, and I avoid fully committing to the superlative for lack of universal knowledge. I haven’t personally seen a positive portrayal of Christians or Christianity unless it came from their own camp. Instead they are blamed for hypocrisy and abuse, even when the data doesn’t support these claims. It just feels true to secular readers, and it feels true because everyone else says it.
    Since P addiction primarily affects young men (though not exclusively, female addicts have my support), there’s a heavy concentration of young men here. Any place that has a heavy concentration of young men, especially with an intent for “improving” young men, is going to be regarded with deep suspicion. Add to that, P addiction fosters resentment toward any party we deem responsible for the misery we find ourselves in, P addiction tends to make us less successful by whatever measure we use, and P itself usually objectifies both men and women. Too often, these young men identify P as a roadblock to getting laid, never stopping to realize that “getting laid” as a goal is a shallow and demeaning one that was either planted or heavily nourished by P. And young men tend to mouth off anyway. I have seen more black pill and potentially “alt-right” conspiracy rhetoric here than any other place I frequent, but it’s to be expected and I see at least some mature adults trying to combat that rhetoric. I wish there were more. However, mature adults combat that rhetoric with gentleness and thoughtfulness, not the self-righteous rage that satisfies some that “something is being done about it.” And for the record, I have also seen way, way more censorship and redaction in this forum than anywhere else, and that only fuels the incel and far right persecution complex. Actually, it’s not a complex. Censorship is a form of persecution, so it’s simply validating their belief that the world hates them and wants to silence them.
    It was started by an atheist and it does have a lot of non-Christians on it. I found that validating that P really is a problem, and not the moral bogeyman mentioned above. I also found the toolset my churches offered to combat P to be ineffective and insufficient to achieve the results. NoFap offers a more sophisticated answer for why we are drawn to P, which leads to a more sophisticated approach to eliminating it from your life. There is nothing that contradicts Christian theology in the study of superstimuli, dopamine overdose, and triggered response.

    It’s still not perfect. I think we’d have higher success rates if we understood it better, but it’s already difficult to work the system as described. NoFap, the official part, is strong on why P addiction happens, but it’s weaker on how to stop and that leads to a plethora of fan theories that may or may not help. Fapstronauts are left to cobble together their own systems, and it’s the crippled leading the blind in here.
     
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  14. As an atheist, I agree. I've had a hatred for religion for a long time as something people who can't think for themselves and will do anything for their church if it means a spot in heaven, even go against the teachings. On the flipside I've also believed for a long time, that although I don't believe in God or any deity, the books themselves (The Bible, Quran etc.) have valuable lessons to be learned from them in the same vein as ancient philosophers. I equate it to a really old self-help book that someone happened to turn into a profitable religion. In the end, it's about knowledge and the application of said knowledge. Not everyone is going to think this way and the ones who don't are dangerous and most importantly, they can be anyone; secular or not.
     
    Meshuga and onceaking like this.
  15. Jm22

    Jm22 Fapstronaut

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    Yeah mate, I wasn't doubting you at all. I was just curious. Pharmaceutical companies love money
     

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