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Masturbating w/o Porn

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by APY, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. APY

    APY Fapstronaut

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    This is a question to the experienced NoFappers out there.

    Till today I have had a 111 day hardmode streak. Now, I technically relapsed today, but not really. I didn't watch porn or think about porn and I simply masturbated. It also wasn't out of a feeling of wanting stimulus, but rather I wanted to know if I could do it. I wasn't able to orgasm from only masturbation 3 months ago and I wanted to see if I've recovered enough that I could orgasm with only masturbation. Success!

    Now, when I did orgasm I didn't feel a drop in confidence or anything like that. I didn't feel bad about it (probably because I did it sort of as an experiment). However, I do notice a drop in physical energy and a small amount of regret is creeping up in the back of my head.

    Now for all you nofap and not using porn experts, what is the difference between watching porn and masturbating and just masturbating when it comes to benefits? I mean, would it be awful if I masturbated once a month without porn? I've been getting a wet dream once a month since the start of this streak.I guess it's the same thing. Tell me what you think.
     
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  2. ArtisticLiving

    ArtisticLiving Fapstronaut

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    I'm new to the site, but not to the concept, or the recovery. I was originally diagnosed as a sex addict - specifically for MO over 30 years ago. I entered 12 step programs for it about 20 years ago and have been active in Sexual Compulsives Anonymous (SCA), Sex Addicts Anonymous (SAA) and Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous (SLAA). I found peace by finding a middle ground with my behavior over 10 years ago that got me free of the self-destructive aspects of the addiction. I recently came to this site and started a reboot because I had recently finished a food-related reboot, was looking for a new challenge and want more out of sex life with my wife, and when I looked at my self I realized that I have plenty of room to improve - specifically in mindfulness during sex - I still tend to escape into fantasy to climax though I am doing so later and leaving it earlier so am improving.

    So, those are my bona fides. Am I the kind of expert you seek, I don't know. Your mileage may vary. :)

    So I'll start with a question. Did you have to resort to fantasy to MO? Or were you able to stay in the moment and just enjoy the sensations?

    For me, one of the main turning points in my life was when I stopped believing that I had to stop MOing completely. I was trapped in black and white thinking - either I had to stop forever or do it all the time. And mine was a cycle switching back and forth between being out of control or trying to have perfect control. At the time I had been in an involuntarily celibate marriage for almost 10 years, so I had been trying to do hard mode all along and for what felt like forever. But in an amazing moment of self-compassion I decided that if it was only once in a while and in my bedroom or bathroom that it would be ok.

    In my case, that turned out to be a powerful bit of self-gentleness. Soon I stopped many self destructive and related behaviors, and my life was able to start improving - now it is better than I ever could have imagined back then. One of the most interesting consequences of adopting a "once every period-of-time" attitude was that I often didn't use it at all. I was worried that maybe wanting to right now was just a fleeting desire and maybe later I would really need to, so I would save it for a later emergency that never came. Knowing that I could when I needed to, gave me the ability to go for months at times with no MO.

    Now, during that time, I also worked for a while on MOing without fantasy. I've been successful, so I know it is doable, and I think that is an amazingly healthy experience to stay out of my head and stay in touch with my body. Somewhere along the way, though, I went back to fantasizing, which is why I'm here working a challenge now. :) I'm trying to get back to being mindful about all the sensations, which is also why my wife and are are learning and practicing Orgasmic Meditation.

    You've made it past 90 days so you completed a significant hard-mode challenge. If you can be at peace with a gentle set of boundaries for yourself, than I think you'll be fine. If you can kick fantasies to the curb and stay in your body and not lost in your head, then I think you are golden.

    My two bits. Take what helps and leave the rest, and congrats and may you find peace in whatever decision you reach.
     
  3. APY

    APY Fapstronaut

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    Thanks a bunch!

    I did it without fantasies (I've been considering indulging mental fantasies as the same thing as watching porn). I'm not too big on the "hard mode". I won't not take an opportunity to have sex with a girl in order to save my hard mode streak. I'm really just curious if the negative side effects of PMO are from the P or the MO.

    What type of food reboot did you do btw?
     
    ArtisticLiving likes this.
  4. Anonymous86

    Anonymous86 Fapstronaut

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    How do you masturbate without fantasties? I'm confused.
     
  5. TheFutureMe

    TheFutureMe Fapstronaut

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    I might be wrong about this, but to this day I think I gathered that P viciously hijacks the natural reproduction reward system that we all, be it 4000 years ago or today, all have in common as a species. Its overstimulation over an extended period of time leads to desensitization from the real world (aka "normal") stimuli, then the whole works of neural pathways modifications happens, hardwiring these changes, ending up keeping us in a loop where our brain now genuinely believes (and wires himself for) this is the right way to do things.

    Now technically, in a world without P, one could still have the same kind of brain changes happen because of an overaboundant fantasizing. That's why there has been sexual addicts (and offenders) in history or different parts of the world (without/before internet). Consider a middle ages bloke, who was only surrounded by women in heavy cloth and puritan manners (unlike what you see whe you walk 10 minutes to get a pack of smokes on the average weekday), his overstimulus fantasy didn't have to be very imaginative nor even remotely close to what's shown in the softest scene you've ever watched. If this guy found that "Eh, that fantasy was great, let's have it again, and again, and again, and ad nauseam", he probably woudl've (technically) be prey to the same physiological mechanism. Only because the difference between the everyday mundane stimulus was very low and his fantasy was way up there compared to this very low base.

    So where am I going with this? Simply this : it's not only the P itself, it's the overstimulation and what we make of it. Obviously it's very easy to overfantasize, just try and stick to the one same fantasy everytime you want to engage in this - it gets dull pretty fast (unlike with a living partner). So we tend to "enrich", add novelty, and before we know it our fantasy is beyond control, and we plunge in a world that has no limits and far exceeds what real-life could give us. We're now stuck in the same position a PMO addict faces when he's clicking away 10 tabs at a time on 3 monitors for 4 hours straight... ^^

    TL;DR - Living organisms are in constant balance. Overuse something (P, MO, food, alcohol, sports, whatever) and the balance is fucked, and there will be consequences sooner or later. Inherently and under "normal" circumstances (i.e. no time/money/privacy/room for an overusage to develop), none of the above would destroy you. Yet there are PMO addicts, obese, alcoholics, etc.

    What do you think?
     
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  6. APY

    APY Fapstronaut

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    By doing it :)

    Stimulating your penis without any stimulating thoughts.
     
  7. APY

    APY Fapstronaut

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    Well that begs the question, if I masturbated to the same fantasy or porn video once a week, would that create over stimulation? Wouldn't it create the same effect as having sex with a partner once a week. In both cases you aren't getting something new to create that insane over stimulus effect.
     
    ArtisticLiving likes this.
  8. idclip

    idclip Fapstronaut

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    Forgive me, but I read only the TL;DR part, and I completely agree with it!

    To answer @APY :
    I don't think there would be anything wrong in masturbating every once in a while, but I'm new here, I haven't had a serious addiction unlike others (maybe you?) here, I haven't undergone a "reboot", and therefore I'm probably not the best one to give you an answer, since I'm kind of a white fly around here (I suppose).
    If anything, from what you described, it doesn't seem like it caused an harm, and so it makes one assume that "it was okay" and that as long as you moderate yourself and maintain your mental, physical and sexual equilibrium, it is "okay".
     
  9. TheFutureMe

    TheFutureMe Fapstronaut

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    I think you're right, it wouldn't in itself. But then again, Coolidge effect, seeking novelty is pet of us at some level, and it's so easy to "enhance" the fantasy once it gets dull, or click on the "next" button when the (now dull) scene is done?
     
  10. ArtisticLiving

    ArtisticLiving Fapstronaut

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    Here's the problem with fantasy, as I see it. Starting with a partner, if sex is this thing I find so wonderful, and interesting, and worth so much of my energy, then why isn't it wonderful enough, interesting enough, and worth it enough for me to actually stay in the moment with it and enjoy it as it is? And sex with myself is no different - if it's a good enough experience and is worth doing, then why on earth would i want to go somewhere else in my head and miss out on learning what sensations I like and enjoy?

    Staying in my body and out of my head during sex - alone or with a partner - that's my goal. I'm just waiting on the alone stuffage until my normal-mode challenge is over.

    Oh, and @APY the food challenge was a Whole30 challenge, except my wife started as i was ending and I wanted to encourage her so it became a Whole60. No sugar (or substitutes), no alcohol, no dairy, no grains and no legumes - just meat, eggs, fruit and vegetables. The first time I did it, I made the shocking discovery that once I was off sugar long enough, I discovered the natural sweetness of many vegetables - it really did reboot my whole relationship with food.
     
    APY likes this.
  11. larrylarrylarry

    larrylarrylarry Fapstronaut

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    You're fine.

    According to the official NoFap Bible (https://www.nofap.com/rebooting/) masturbating with no Porn is OK.
     
    APY likes this.
  12. TheFutureMe

    TheFutureMe Fapstronaut

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    Very interesting question indeed.

    It sets me thinking about what you'er saying about the diet you've followed : (quoting you now)
    "I made the shocking discovery that once I was off sugar long enough, I discovered the natural sweetness of many vegetables
    - it really did reboot my whole relationship with food."

    We can read that as follows :
    I made the shocking discovery that once I was off [overstimulation] long enough, I discovered the natural [feel of things]
    - it really did reboot my whole relationship with [life].

    Therefore, applied to sex with a partner, it goes like this :
    I made the shocking discovery that once I was off [porn and fantasy] long enough, I discovered the natural [feel of sex and emotions]
    - it really did reboot my whole relationship with [my sex life].

    What do you think?

    Sorry I made it this long, I'm pretty sure you got it the first time around ;) Overstimulation is a trap that takes us far from the real, BECAUSE it's way better at giving the instantaneous pleasure/reward/escape. That's to answer your (rethorical?) question of why the real deal isn't as attractive as the fabricated version (be it fake sex, fake worlds, fake feelings, fake friends, fake promises of richness, fake getaway from a hard life, etc etc).
     
  13. ArtisticLiving

    ArtisticLiving Fapstronaut

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    Essentially, the new relationship with food reboot experience is exactly why I am here and doing a PMO reboot challenge. My history of out-of-control behavior was brought back in line with a more functional life about a decade ago, and my wife and I have been married for almost 5 years now, with no secrets between us, occasional mutual and solo porn use, but I find myself still going into fantasy when I'm with her - and that is why I am rebooting. :)

    I have a problem, though, with your statement that over-stimulation is better at providing instantaneous reward, because I could use that to justify never changing my behavior. If escaping into my head is "better" than staying in my body, then why would I ever want to stay in my body? I believe it seems better, but is not.

    So why then? For me, I am learning that it's because my discovery of sex and masturbation and porn and kinks and all of that started out in my head. It's more comfortable for me, more familiar and it doesn't have the messiness, awkwardness, and anxious fear that real sex with a partner has. Now, the rewards with a real partner are far more reaching than a climax, and truly better. Maybe that's what you mean when you talk about fake vs real. For me, I am a master of sex while staying in the safe confines of my head, now I am becoming a student of mindful sex as I stay in my body.

    As my eating changed, I had some real problems with dealing with it. I had accepted the idea of tolerating vegetables when I started the program, but the idea that I would like them or complain to my wife that there weren't enough vegetables in what she was cooking felt like I was betraying some basic facet of who I am. My appreciation of vegetables increased as I became more familiar with them - heck I ate a soup with mushrooms yesterday without even hunting them out and removing them - a heresy for the old me! So too, must I learn what sensations i am feeling, and develop the skills of listening to them. After the reboot, M may be a useful tool for me if without fantasy - either with or without the O since my body and not me would need to make that call.
     
  14. TheFutureMe

    TheFutureMe Fapstronaut

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    This is exactly what I meant by fake vs. real. The deeper meaning of these actions and gestures and habits, when done with a partner we share a history and a billion emotions with. The incomparable feeling of sharing something as deep and intimate, freely, openly, and enjoying every last second of it. Sounds cheesy as f*ck when I write it down, but it might very well be the reason one should not stay in his head to build impossible fantasies or edge 'till dawn in search of the perfect scene.

    You're right, it's not better at all! Using this as a reason to keep you behavior intact would only be possible if you choose to overlook the collateral damage.

    When talking about fantasy (and other overstimulations) being "better", it's only (i repeat ONLY) at providing the instantaneous reward/fix/surge/escape. And you nailed the point, because these things are hassle-free when you look at them first. They're on demand (until they demand you to use randomly), quick to use (until they invade your thoughts when you can't have it), can be hidden (up to a point where it simply shows), you control them 100% (until it's reversed and we still don't know it), only concerns yourself if you want to use (except when your wife/husband takes off with your children), etc etc.
    So yeah, I failed to state the obvious and I apologize for that : the overstimulations come with this trail of nasty buggers that cause collateral damage overtime, and can prove fantastically difficult to get rid of, and that really is the stuff we want to avoid. That might be "why" it's a shortsighted view to indulge in overfantasizing in the long run (i.e. "it's my thing/it's part of me/I like this").

    Of course it's all a matter of dosage.
    Billions of people eat everyday (nearly all of them in fact) and not everybody end up obese.
    Billions of people drink alcohol everyday without being alcoholics.
    Billions of people fantasize on a girl/boy in the subway and they're no sexual predators or addicts.

    Studies show up here and there trying to convince us that "there's a gene for that" just like there was "an app for that" back in 2008.

    The problem lies in hijacked neural pathways in otherwise perfectly normal (in an evolutionary standpoint) behavior patterns : feeding, reproduction, defense, survival.

    It's only a problem when you can't live with it anymore - I suppose. The question being, then, can you afford to let it become one?
     
  15. IggyIshness

    IggyIshness Fapstronaut

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    If you do just like everybody else your going to be just everybody else. Anyways dont start Ming if you already didnt for 100+ days look at me i didnt m for 113 days or porn and im back how i was before. dont you will fall back in all over again
     

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