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Why Are You Conservative? / Why Are You Liberal?

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Joe1023

    Joe1023 Fapstronaut

    Personally, I'm conservative. My upbringing hasn't really affected my views at all because growing up, we never really got into politics much at all. The PMO/NoFap hasn't really affected my views either because I formed my political beliefs way before I made the commitment about that. In high school, my view on abortion was that there were exceptions that could be made for visits to the abortion clinic, and since then I've changed my view that no visits to the abortion clinic to get an abortion are acceptable to me, and here's why: In the case of either the mother lives or the baby lives and mom or mom & dad both choose to try again, that is something that would be done in a hospital, not a clinic.

    I'm Conservative mainly because I support the second amendment. I don't believe that it only applies to muskets and firearms that were around when it was written. It applies to defending ourselves, our families, and our homes. I don't really see the point in banning all firearms when criminals and law enforcement will be the only ones that have them, leaving us law-abiding citizens completely defenseless against those with guns. Also, I'm a Christian, so I don't think abortion is right. There are other reasons as well, but those are the two biggest reasons for me.

    I don't really think I'll ever change my views on politics because I'm pretty set in my ways and don't really agree with a lot of the beliefs and ways of the democrats. I'm absolutely NOT here to bash any views that are different from mine, or to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat, just sharing my views. Obviously politics and religion are the two most volatile topics on Earth these days, but if we can agree to disagree where we differ, we'll be a LOT better off.
     
  2. TSoprano

    TSoprano Fapstronaut

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    I voted Kerry, Obama, Obama, Trump.
     
  3. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    I am mainly conservative but don't support the second amendment, which was written long before there were assault weapons and the like. The idea about gun control is to take guns away from criminals and to prevent them from getting guns, not to write on a piece of paper that criminals should turn in their guns. Assault rifles are not really needed to defend oneself and one's home, but are very good for mass shootings.
    But I am perplexed that you are Christian and how can you justify guns in that case? "Thou shalt not kill", the sanctity of life, etc. I saw an interview with the pastor/priest of a Christian church in ISIS region, and he said that the message of Christianity is nonviolence and love and they would not fight the attackers if they came. Some of the people in the congregation did take up weapons and join the fight, however, despite his message.
     
  4. Joe1023

    Joe1023 Fapstronaut

    I support the second amendment because of the criminals and the joy of shooting. I enjoy learning to shoot new firearms and being accurate with them in the even I need to use it to defend myself or my family. I don't see the logic or point in making a law that is designed for criminals to follow. That makes absolutely zero sense. Why would a criminal go to a precinct to turn in his or her guns because there's a law stating that they have to?? They would never do that. So then the only people left to obey the laws are the people who actually registered their guns and would be arresting for not turning them in. If someone owns an AR-15 and has a clean record and has no arrests and no criminal record of any kind, what problem do you have with that? They simply enjoy shooting at whatever targets they want to shoot at whether its empty beer cans, watermelons, scarecrows, or whatever, that's none of my business what people do in their spare time if I have no reason to be suspicious of them. I am perplexed that you seem to think that just because I support the second amendment, I somehow support murder, which would be beyond stupid. There are a lot of people who talk about what the Christian message is and the LOVE to talk for all of us. I sincerely hope that you don't accept one person's opinion as your own in all aspects of Christ's teachings. Surely you're much smarter than that. I would never go on a shooting spree for the fun of it because I'm not a terrorist and more importantly, that's not what a child of God should be doing. BUT, having said that, I am absolutely willing to defend my family at all costs against anyone who would do them harm. Obviously, a mature adult will be able to decide quickly if an attacker can be stopped without being killed, but if push comes to shove, and if I don't kill an attacker, then they kill my family, you'd better believe I'm going to shoot to kill. And if you wouldn't do the same, then my friend, I strongly suggest you let your family know that you wouldn't protect them if it ever comes to that. Thou shalt not kill is a commandment that I believe God will give me an exemption from should it ever come down to me defending my family or allowing them to be slaughtered because I didn’t stop an attacker.
     
  5. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    You are repeating yourself. No reasonable person would ever suggest that, but as I already mentioned, there are ways to get guns out of the hands of criminals. When someone has committed a crime, their property could be searched. There could be federal lists of criminals that are cross-referenced with new gun purchases (that is not taking them away, but the effect is the same). Of course that requires to remove gun loopholes at trade shows. There is technology to pinpoint the location of guns fired, so police could respond quickly in cities. A separate issue is mental illness. Why anyone with mental illness is allowed to own a gun is bizarre, especially since there have been plenty of shootings by mentally ill people in the US. Obviously there is not time to stop someone from taking out a gun and killing someone even if everyone else in the room had a gun.

    Because plenty of mass shootings in the US have been done with AR-15 or similar weapons, and they had clean records and no arrests and no criminal record of any kind. This is not speculation, but even if it was, someone should have anticipated this possibility.

    If you support anyone's right to have an AR-15, then aren't you supporting murder because you know that some of them are going to commit mass shootings in the future. Who are you going to blame if the person had mental illness? You don't need an AR-15 to shoot watermelons in the backyard.

    That is your interpretation. Plenty of Christians disagree with you. A documentary came out last year "Armor of Light" about the issue of gun control and Christianity. I haven't seen it but am planning on it.

    What is your suggestion on how to curb mass violence in the US if you support the right of anyone to have any gun they want? If someone you knew was killed in a mass shooting you would feel differently. Clearly everyone having guns cannot stop or prevent mass killings. Eg, look at the Joker shooting in the movie theater. You have someone with full body armor who starts firing with an assault rifle in a crowded and darkened theater. You can't see where it's coming from and if you weren't already shot in the first salvo you have more chance of shooting a bystander. Even if he was neutralized there's going to be a lot of casualties due to 1 person.
     
  6. Joe1023

    Joe1023 Fapstronaut

    You can give whatever statistics and numbers you want, but in the end, you will NEVER confiscate all the guns from all the criminals. It will never happen. And in a gun ban, all that will happen is the law abiding citizens will be unarmed and the criminals with guns with rule the country. No police force in the world will be able to stand up to a criminal force that big. Have you put any thought into how many shooting sprees were stopped and how many lives were saved because good people with courage stopped them? Talk to the families of those people that were saved, and maybe YOU'LL feel differently.


    You’re talking about this as if I have some way to stop all shootings. Unless the Lord comes down to do it Himself, there is no way to stop all shootings immediately. We arm everyone that wants to be armed that can prove themselves worthy of handling and using a firearm in the event they need to use them. No, clearly that won’t stop all shootings, and its going to get a LOT worse before it gets better because of all the criminals with guns, but you sound like you’re getting awfully self-righteous about this issue, but I’ll indulge you further, for now.


    I'm not about to dismiss all the violence/shootings, but without good citizens with guns, all we can ever do is try to talk the shooter into laying down his weapons, or just wait for the police. Then wait for the coroner.



    You don’t have anything on your page about who you are, but let me tell you a little bit about me…. I’m 41 years old, and I’ve been all over this world. I’ve been to Korea, Italy, Germany, UAE, and a lot of other places. I spent almost 15 years in the military before they started downsizing. I spent six months in Iraq and I’ve seen what guns and other weapons can do. Don’t lecture me about this issue, and definitely don’t ever tell me how I’ll feel if someone I love is killed like that. Maybe someone with a concealed carry pulls out a gun and shoots an attacker and saves your life and the lives of some of your family and friends… you still going to talk all high and mighty against all guns everywhere? And while we’re at it, why don’t you petition the police and military to give up all weapons?


    And to confiscate guns from everyone who is mentally ill, you have to define mentally ill. If someone forgets to buy milk when they’re at the store, is that mentally ill, or do they have to be declared mentally ill by a doctor? Because there are probably a LOT of people running around out there that would be declared mentally ill if they were seen by a doctor if they were seen, but they haven’t been. What do you do then if they own a gun?


    Next time, maybe do some homework before you start shoving your beliefs down other people's throats.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...r-stop-mass-shootings/?utm_term=.10b40618038e


    https://crimeresearch.org/2016/09/uber-driver-in-chicago-stops-mass-public-shooting/


    http://controversialtimes.com/issue...hootings-were-stopped-by-good-guys-with-guns/
     
  7. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    We have some similarities in our background.

    This will be my last post in this discussion unless you respond to anything I'm saying - you keep repeating yourself, not addressing what I said, and attributing statements to me that I did not make. I never once said to confiscate all guns from criminals. Nor did I mention a gun ban - you seem very afraid of a gun ban because this is the 3rd time you mentioned it. Yes, we actually know how many shooting sprees were stopped because they are in the news. And I already addressed that point - always more people are killed than the attacker himself because the first shooter has the advantage of surprise. You can see this in the posts that you linked.

    When did I make the statement that you have some way to stop all shootings? As someone informed in this issue, I wanted your opinion on what could be done to decrease mass shootings. You gave your answer in this last post, which is to train everyone possible to have a gun. I'm not sure if you have other thoughts or that would be your complete plan (let's say if you were in charge of your country).

    You should know that many law enforcement want to get more guns off the street, themselves excluded.

    I wouldn't call someone forgetting to buy milk at the store mentally ill. That's normal. Sure, let people be declared mentally ill by a doctor. That doesn't have to be the complete plan, but it would have prevented a lot of shootings (and even other situations). The University of Texas (or some university in Texas) shooting in which 20 ppl or more were killed - the attacker started seeing a doctor several months earlier. The recent shooting by the ex-military person in the western US I believe - he was known to the military because he reported that he was hearing voices telling him to kill people or something like that. There was more evidence than that, it was super obvious he was a danger and it was known to the military that he had guns. I don't remember if he was being followed by a psychiatrist but it was a really obvious situation - if he wasn't, they could easily have gotten a psychiatrist involved. A separate situation to guns- but the pilot who committed suicide and killed everyone else by crashing the Germanwings passenger plane - he was being followed by a psychiatrist. Wouldn't you have wanted the psychiatrist to prevent him from flying commercial planes? I think there were at least 40 people on that plane. Doctors are already allowed to prevent people from driving by having their license revoked and to commit someone to the hospital for being a danger to himself/herself or others. I'm sure you wouldn't want someone mentally ill serving next to you in the military.
     
  8. Joe1023

    Joe1023 Fapstronaut

    I’m addressing what you’re saying, you’re just not accepting it, and that's not my problem.

    You seem to think that criminals buy their guns from stores, and that they don’t steal them or that no one would ever sell a gun if the price is right without doing a background check. That’s why they’re called criminals. Even IF you managed to get all the guns from all the criminals, would you still disarm the public? If so, don't you think the criminals are going to find more guns by stealing, bribing, blackmailing, or killing others for their guns? Be realistic when you think about your answer.

    Yes, plenty of shootings have occurred using AR-15s, but stabbings have also occurred. Do you have a plan to stop killings done with knives? What about hammers, nail guns, saw blades, and hand saws? The bottom line here for me is that you can outlaw all the guns and whatever other weapons you want, criminals will find a way to get guns and the only thing that law abiding citizens will be able to do is pray and wait for the police. What is your plan to do with all the weapons that mentally ill people have? If they don’t turn them in, who’s going to go door to door asking all those people with registered guns to turn them in? And who is going to draw the line between forgetful and mentally ill? Who decides what is mentally ill, but can still own a gun and who can’t?

    I see the point you’re making about all the shootings, and I agree….its ridiculously out of hand. But taking guns from everyone who obeys the law is the last thing we should be doing. You’re disarming the obedient with no effective plan to disarm the criminals as quickly.
     
  9. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    You have a pathologic fear of guns being taken from law-abiding citizens. I get it. It's the 4th time you've mentioned it, and I didn't bring it up once.

    You say you are addressing my points, but you aren't. I already said - let psychiatrists decide who is mentally ill AND should not have a gun. Why are you asking again where the line is drawn between forgetfulness and mental illness? Didn't I already mention - doctors already have the ability to take away driver's licenses (yes, I know, people can still drive illegally - but that can be dealt with) and commit anyone involuntarily to the hospital. This is no different. Let the police confiscate guns from the mentally ill, or the military if it is someone from the military like the recent shooting I mentioned. Did you hear about this shooting:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Guerena_shooting
    That was someone with no criminal record and no evidence of any wrongdoing was found, a military man himself who was defending his family when he was killed. Don't you think it is a better use of resources to take guns away from the mentally ill than attacking law-abiding people? And we are not going to have a flurry of casualties in the process of taking away guns from the mentally ill. But also, you can pass laws to prevent them from purchasing guns.

    About other weapons, I'm not sure that you know the data. Take a look at the number of deaths in the US due to guns and due to other weapons. The deaths from all other weapons is a drop in the bucket compared to deaths from guns. Passing laws and taking action to deal with all weapons would be like outlawing all amusement park rides because of the few deaths each year that occur from accidents. And no, if criminals could not get access to guns, we are not going to see anywhere close to those number of deaths replaced with other weapons. I have a background in all the relevant areas and this is another discussion but suffice it to say - the reason there are so many gun deaths is because it is so easy to shoot someone and so easy to do a mass killling, it dramatically reduces as it becomes harder with other weapons and acts as a deterrent, it is easier to defend oneself against a knife attack compared to a gun (whether armed or not armed), the cost is increased, and so on, and so on.

    You haven't answered my question of how you would deal with gun violence.

    There are plenty of things that can be done to reduce guns among criminals. I am not going to keep repeating myself because you have not addressed any of them and keep repeating that criminals will find a way to get access. Why do we have any laws at all if criminals are going to find ways to get around them and break them? Why not get rid of all laws on the books?
     
  10. LEPAGE

    LEPAGE Fapstronaut

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    I'm conservative and pro-gun. There is now no way you can ever completely remove firearms from society. Even if governments managed to completely confiscate every existing gun currently in existence. The problem is, many of us could make one, and I'm not just talking about 3-D printed jobs. Guns are made using the same materials and tools as cars and toasters. Hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people have the knowledge and capability to make a functioning firearm in a small machine shop. As long as we have illegal activities, like the drug trade, human trafficking, etc, there will always be a demand for guns, and someone will always be there with supply.

    Just because crazy people can't access guns, does not mean that they will not go on a rampage. Plenty of people are stabbed every day. Can't get an AR-15? Hijack a city bus and drive it through the Santa Claus Parade. Taking guns away does not stop crazy people. Sane people with guns at least have a chance.
     
  11. Joe1023

    Joe1023 Fapstronaut

    Stygian, looking back through the pages of this thread, all you seem to do is troll people. You read their posts and just argue with everyone. I'm done debating with you. All you want is an argument, not a debate. I have better things to do than entertain trolls. Grow up and get a life.

    (I'm sure you'll quote this and argue with it like you always do, but I'm done regardless of what you do.)
     
  12. TSoprano

    TSoprano Fapstronaut

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    Used to be liberal when I was younger but then one day I got a good paying job and had to pay taxes. Then I turned conservative.
     
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  13. UnorthodoxBox

    UnorthodoxBox Fapstronaut

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    (Assuming that by "liberalism" the thread means leftism, which is generally an American correlation.)

    I'm a conservative. If you had asked me this same question a year ago or even two years ago, I would have told you "I am a Socialist, the United States government is merely a manifestation of selfishness and corruption. We ought to tear it down and start anew, and what will be stating? A free country, one that is truly free. One in which every man, woman, and child - has access to the healthcare they need, has good jobs due to the nationalization of industry, and are accepted for who they are. **** the Establishment."

    After my radical leftist phase, I sort of did a one-eighty and became a right-wing Libertarian, I was all about "taxation is left" and praising Ayn Rand. :p
    Shortly thereafter, I simply escaped from the grasp of ideology for a moment, a few months. Gave me some time to reflect. I think that political views and life philosophy are almost inextricably linked - you will not find a Calvinist who is also a Communist, and you won't find a postmodernist who doesn't hold leftist views. So some of the questions that I needed to ask were philosophical ones. Conservatism is orderly and liberalism is disorderly, conservatism hoardes "structure" as if it is a heavenly gem and liberalism utterly rejects "structure".

    In most leftist circles, there's a lot of talk of oppression... Of course you're oppressed, everybody is oppressed. You damn well had better understand that you're going to face suffering in life that can't be blamed on the greedy capitalists. Life is suffering, and you have to accept that. And then accept individual responsibility for your actions. Perhaps you are powerless because you haven't put yourself in any situations that require you to be powerful.

    I think conservatism embraces individual responsibility more than liberalism, and is more individualistic, while also having a greater degree of order and comfort.
     
  14. I don't see why people have to be one thing or the other when they can be a bit of both. It's a black and white way of thinking and that's why the world is such a messed up place. People often can't think outside the box.
     
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  15. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    This is a most bizarre post. You have been doing the trolling consistently and you say I am doing it? You have ignored practically every point I have made while I have addressed practically every point of yours. If you were serious about expanding your view, you would read about opposite opinions and evidence to yours, as I have done, even reading the links and material you provided, but you do not seem interested in doing the same.
     
  16. Joe1023

    Joe1023 Fapstronaut

    Ah yes, the old tax thing got ya! I can definitely relate to that!
     
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  17. UnorthodoxBox

    UnorthodoxBox Fapstronaut

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    You can't be "a bit of both", you can side with conservatism on some issues and liberalism on others, but you can't be both a leftist and a conservative. Being boxed doesn't define you, it merely adds structure to life.
     
  18. I don't agree

    Being boxed is a form of control, it's a mechanism used by governments called "Divide and rule" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule

    Having opinions outside people's comfort zone should be how everyone reacts to issues. I used to be against abortion and prostitution, but carefully analyzing the data I see it's a mistake to make these two illegal, it just makes things worse. I don't have to agree with abortion in a sense that I think it's cool or awesome, but I also don't have to protest against it if I know the bigger picture.

    Basically, I get my head out of my ass in every situation, discussion I'm in and I determine the best course of action not based on emotions or personal beliefs. I use reason and logic.
     
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  19. Joe1023

    Joe1023 Fapstronaut

    So it sounds like you're kind of saying that anyone who disagrees with you has their head up their ass, or that they're not acting on reason and logic???
     
  20. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    This is all like saying, we can't solve a problem, so let's give up completely. You can make that argument about anything under the sun - immigration, tax reform, healthcare .... It is well known that when you make something harder to do, it deters people. This has been the case for hundreds of years. If people had to make their own 3d printed guns, or try to convince a local machine shop to make their illegal guns, the rate of illegal guns (in your situation when there weren't guns) would be dramatically reduced. You mention making cars, but cars are EXTREMELY regulated. Far more than guns.
    As I pointed out, it's silly to compare stabbings and guns. There are 10x the deaths from guns, and it's much easier to kill someone with a gun, and much easier to defend oneself from a stabbing.
     

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