Politically Correct Google Fires Man For Stating the Obvious

That this thread even exists on this site amazes me.

Fellas (and I'm assuming you're all male, given the topic) this is a COMMUNITY SUPPORT WEBSITE. For men AND women.

So in what universe is it appropriate to start a thread here that calls Damore's memo "stating the obvious" when it targeted women's ability?

How is you guys complaining about unfair maternity leave, 'bullshit leftist thinking' and butt-hurt thought-policing creating a supportive atmosphere WHICH IS THE POINT OF THE WEBSITE?

What's next--a white supremacist starting a thread about the "fake news" media not showing how they're the real victims of Charlottseville? Is that cool too?

You're welcome to share your anger and righteousness on whatever bro-focused site out there you want. I was under the impression that this was a supportive embracing community--inclusive of the women here.

@ILoathePorn am I missing something here?

 

Do you know that this thread is under "Off-topic discussion"? It is off-topic since it is meant to be and you're way off this off-topic.

BTW, there was no "complaint" about unfair maternity leave!

 

I'm going to assume you mean this seriously and aren't just being glib.

This thread is openly critical of a group of people this website is intended to serve. That it is in "off-topic" doesn't change that 1) it's still here and counter to the stated mission 2) they can still bloody well see it.

Twelve step groups are pointedly clear to stay away from discussions that distract from their primary aim--recovery. They do that for a reason--it encourages unity. Helps people feel safe to come, share, be supported. Important things for a SUPPORT COMMUNITY, yes?

So I'm happy to hijack this thread. You guys suprise me by talking like this in the first place.

 

Only as much glib as you were when you pointed out a complaint earlier when there was none. Moreover by saying "you guys", you too have generalised everyone here under the same umbrella.

Other than that, I agree with you, that some discussions on the thread may not be appropriate for working together in 12 steps. I have never followed any 12 steps programme and wouldn't know. I'll leave it at that in the spirit of agreements than fights.

 

That's fair. To be clear, when I said "you guys" I was addressing the OP and those who generally agreed. Looking back over the thread your response wasn't in clear agreement, so it wasn't so much to you. And I was glad to see there were a couple responses in clear disagreement, though they seemed outnumbered by a fair margin. Hence my reply.

 

Have you actually read the memo? If you do, I think you'll find that the guy was fired for an extremely mundane opinion - one that even if you disagree with, doesn't warrant firing.

No one is targeting women's abilities here. Some are simply saying that the psychological strengths and weaknesses of men and women are slightly different on average. The memo suggested changing job tasks in a way that makes tech more appealing to women on average. This would naturally increase women in tech by their own free choice, instead of forcing gender quotas.

People aren't mad about men vs women or anything like that. They're mad because someone was fired for a political opinion - a highly uncontroversial one at that.

 

It sounds like you're talking about the validity of Damore's memo; that isn't the point I'm trying to make.

The memo was denounced as sexist by women in tech and business leaders trying to diversify their workforce; so great the backlash he was fired for "perpetuating gender stereotypes." That's code for "promoting sexism."

However you personally look at his memo, the larger backlash to it is real. So a thread complaining on Damore's behalf isn't appropriate on a support site that's intended to be inclusive of women.

If this were an off-topic forum on a site devoted to weightlifting, lowriders, Chicago Cubs baseball, it would be a completely different story. But it isn't. Again, the 12-step organizations are very clear on this: "We avoid topics that can cause dissension amongst members....Personal progress for the greatest number of people depends upon unity."

So a thread defending what's considered a sexist memo is counter to a support group's mission of inclusivity. You're welcome to your opinions--but if it's on a divisive subject like this, this isn't the place to share it IMO.

 

I'm not attacking you but isn't this what free speech is all about? They only call the memo sexist because they have to or else they'll be attacked or because it's the popular thing to do. I read part of the memo and he does make some good points, not all his points are bad. IMO, there are some relatively controversial points but not so much that he should be fired. The memo isn't objectively sexist.

 

I changed it to objectively... Is that better?

 

A) Free speech refers to protection from government prosecution/censorship, not from private parties (like Google)

B) Doesn't Google have a right to exercise their right to free speech by denouncing this memo? Why aren't you defending their right to do so?

Have you considered the possibility that maybe they are calling it sexist because they believe it is perpetuating stereotypes?

 

Fair enough but I don't think that he should have been fired for it. He made quite a few good points along with some sexist points in my opinion but overall it wasn't so bad that he should have been fired. If a woman did a similar memo on men, I know that I wouldn't have been offended. Can I ask you something, are you a postmodernist?

 

There aren't enough men in nursing. Something must be done about it!

 

Is the nursing industry hostile towards male nurses? Has the nursing industry recognized such hostility?

This is why your attempt at pointing a double standard falls flat.

 

Google's opinion was that he deserved to be fired for it, and it was their bottom line that was at risk. Again, he had a right to write that memo and Google just as equally has a right to denounce the memo and distance themselves from someone espousing those views. Google is not the government, and Google is not preventing him from publishing the memo on whatever other platform he wants to use.

Of course, because you are a man and you haven't had to face the same obstacles, discrimination, and hostile environments that women in the tech field have.

Would you have felt the same way if someone had written the memo saying that Black people should be given different tasks because of their "genetic predispositions and biases"?

To a degree, I'd say - there are objective truths, but these are mostly in relationship to measurable, observable, specific aspects of science (e.g., water boils at 100C at sea level, 1 meter is 1/300,000,000 the distance that light travels in a second, etc.).

I do think many social "standards" are merely constructs and are being utilized to marginalize already-vulnerable populations, and that is what I am set on combating here.

 

First of all, how did you know that I was black and yes I would be offended if someone wrote that about black people but we all know that someone wouldn't write that because it has no basis in fact.

In terms of society and social issues, are views subjective?

 

Here is how the Google employee's memo was being sexist and mysogynist: It attributes traits (neuroticism, extroversion) to an entire group of people (women). It then suggested that because of these traits, women as a group should be relegated to different, specific jobs. It is completely ignoring any and all individual traits and characteristics that a person might bring to the workplace, and instead encouraging people to simply "categorize" (as he claims that men are better at doing) them into group that further increase that division.

And here are several examples of prevalent sexism in the tech industry.

 

Thank you for going to bat on this @DeltaMeansChange .

@aarondf I appreciate that you're attempting to discuss this civilly, and while I disagree with your opinion I don't refute your right to hold it.

But I do want to reiterate that the bigger issue isn't the veracity/validity of the memo. Like I tried to say before, in the context of the nofap community it doesn't matter if you think Damore was "right." As Delta has painstakingly pointed out, the memo is regarded as offensive by the people it centers on; because that is the same group of people that are welcome on this very site, this site is NOT the place for you guys to be defending his views.

It doesn't matter if you think it's isn't offensive; you can see that the people the memo is about DO. Just like it wouldn't matter if someone was defending other ostensibly offensive stereotypes. "But look a lot of Asians ARE smart/ a lot of Latinos ARE loud/a lot of African Americans CAN dance and play basketball/a lot of gay men ARE HIV positive"--all of these viewpoints and others like them don't belong here.

Does that make sense?

 

I don't understand why you think certain viewpoints don't belong, especially in an Off-topic discussion thread. The moderators can be the arbiters of which threads belong in which category, and they can also, and should, delete comments or shut down threads which have descended into ad-hominem attacks. Apart from that, any topic belongs here as long as there are those who are willing to engage with each other.

The problem with your position is it relies on a subjective determination of what is offensive. There are those who are perpetually offended, and those who are offended over things that any rational person would find ridiculous, but that's irrelevant in a public forum where people are free to communicate their views. If the OP wants to open a discussion regarding the Damore memo, and there are those who are "triggered" on this site because of the thread's offensive nature, then it's up to them to not follow the thread or perhaps navigate to a different section. When others attempt to suppress the speech of people they find "offensive", that's a slippery slope that will lead nowhere good.

What if there are women who come to this thread, and educate the OP on the sexism that is prevalent in the tech industry, or perhaps point out how some of the things in the memo that perpetuates stereotypes, and the OP is better off for it and comes away with a more grounded view of the controversy? Wouldn't that be a far better outcome than just suppressing the conversation to begin with?

 

As I mentioned probably a couple times before, this particular website is about WELCOMING PEOPLE. So certain sexist/racist/homophobic/xenophobic viewpoints don't belong, even in an "off-topic thread."

In general terms, sure, I'd buy that. Except we aren't speaking in general terms, nor are we talking about a particular person prone to hypersensitivity getting bent out of shape over something the majority of people consider innocuous.

We're talking about a memo that generalized and disparaged half of humanity. So I'm of the position that the resultant outrage passes both the "subjective determination" and "slippery slope" tests.

If this were a site about power tools or bloody pokemon go, FFS, yes, you'd absolutely be right. But your hypothetical 'what if someone educates him' argument is nothing in my opinion when compared to the possibility of a female addict in distress coming to the site, seeing the thread title, and leaving because of the judgment she expects from sexist members here. That defeats the entire purpose of the site. His potential 'education' is hardly worth that, in my view.

I sometimes welcome people here who are absolutely struggling. The last thing I want for any of them--male, female, jewish, black, white, gay, trans, whatever--is to believe that we, as a community, are anything less than loving and supportive. I would be shocked if you or anyone else on this thread disagrees with me on that.

So that's why, in a nutshell.

 

This is exactly the problem with your argument, especially in the world we live in today. The "ist" and "phobic" terms are thrown around so recklessly and sometimes without any regard for rational thought, that they've begun to lose all meaning with the exception of the super minority fringe portions of society such as the KKK. These terms are used to shut down arguments immediately rather than help advance the conversation. I agree that this site is about WELCOMING PEOPLE, but this is also a site dedicated to various sex addictions and pathological habits that are harmful and destructive to people and relationships. I've been involved in threads that openly discussed rape, child pornography, human trafficking, abuse, and actual degradation of women, and all of these things are part of the porn industry. I'm sure there are many women on these forums who've been raped or abused, so does that mean we should shut down any discussion of those topics? How would that be helpful to addicts and those suffering from these kinds of issues either through fantasy or an obsession with these subject matters in porn? I can't imagine anything more sexist to women than pornography, but yet you want to discourage members from openly discussing the Google memo?

Respectfully, I disagree. This statement leads me to believe that you either didn't read the memo, or you read through a very narrow lens. I can agree with you on the generalization part, but that was the point of that memo - to speak in general terms. Here's an actual quote from the memo:

A few things here. First, the memo clearly states that not "all men differ from all women", that "women differ in part", that "these differences may explain", that there's "significant overlap", and most importantly, that you "can't say anything about an individual". Where, in any of this, is the disparaging of half of humanity? You seem to be against any type of generalization, which makes no sense and is not how the world works. Generalizations are everywhere and are an inherent part of how we as humans communicate with each other. Generalizations are, generally speaking, helpful while stereotypes are, again - generally speaking, hurtful. Did parts of the memo digress into stereotypes? Perhaps - and now I leave it to you to prove your case. Please go to the memo and specifically cite passages that are disparaging to all women or are hurtful stereotypes.

One of the main goals of this site is education. Click on the About link on this site, and you'll find the following:

How are we to overcome our sexual addictions? With forums, with articles, by engaging with others (not part of the quote but that's in the About article as well). It seems to me that if there are members that have overtly sexist view points, having others point out that sexism and educate those members on the harm they are perpetuating by having those view points is a far better way of helping than calling them sexist and telling them to shut-up, you have no place here.

I don't disagree with you. I do, however, disagree with your determination of what is loving and supportive. I don't believe people come to these forums and find a preponderance of sexism and racism throughout. To the contrary, they find countless members here who have gone through the same struggles, who are willing to point out flaws in thinking, who can provide counter-arguments that make people think. You can never know who is affected by a thread, either positively or negatively, and you can never know what exactly was the content that affected them unless they choose to voice there thoughts. I welcome this site by providing a medium where anyone is free to voice their opinion and often times receive valuable feedback in return. Are there trolls on this site - absolutely. Are there actual racists here - I'm sure there are. I've seen clearly racist responses in threads just in the past few days. I also saw nobody liking those comments or even responding to them, and that is encouraging to me. If I saw fapper after fapper agreeing and responding with YES - KILLL ALL *****, then that is what would provide an unwelcoming environment and perhaps cause me to rethink my participation here.

I'll leave you with this. I've posted multiple threads throughout this site where members and women have directly engaged with me and pointed out things I said which were sexist. I welcomed them and learned from them. It educated me and provided me with a broader point of view regarding the world and the experiences of others. This in turn has helped me in my recovery. I still struggle, and I'm not a NoFap titan with hundreds of days in my counter, but recovery is why I'm here. It's the purpose of this site for me. Having open forums where I can freely express my viewpoints without fear of suppression helps me in my recovery from porn addiction, and I'm quite sure I'm not alone.