3 conclusions about the creator (God)

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  1. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    Because it isn't projected. It's woven into our being.

    Value each other defined how? Value each other compared to what?

    If you're someone who doesn't believe in human life having intrinsic value (as distinguished from plant life, animal life, etc), then you can still choose to place value on human life of your own volition, but you have no logical basis for it other than that it makes you feel good.

    The problem comes when someone "feels good" by devaluing human life, by treating people horribly, hurting them, murdering them, etc. And if they devalue human life, you can't tell them they're wrong unless that value is actually objective. Otherwise they can just say "f*** you and your idea of value", and you'll have no logical foundation to say they're wrong.
  2. He did, I call him Jesus.
  3. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

    How? How is such a thing even possible? All value I've ever seen was subjectively projected.

    Value by how we feel about each other?

    Why isn't all life valuable? Why must you only focus on human life? Aren't you subjectively rating human life to be higher in value than animal life? And so what if value is based of what feels good? That isn't the only basis BTW, there can be a logical basis and that basis is so that the species continues to exist.

    You're right it would be subjective but I can say that they're logically wrong if they have certain goals in mind like a goal of trying to help the species survive.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  4. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    I'm sorry to hear that.

    And what happens when those feelings don't match up? Do you think racists have an equally valid perception of value? After all, they certainly have a particular way they feel about people.

    I focus on human life because it's easier to compare apples to apples. Plus, at least from a biblical perspective, animals are not created in God's image. Only we are. We, like God, have the ability to create. We can imagine something, and then make it a reality. We create art for art's sake, for instance. Animals do not.

    And what if their goal is not to help the species survive? What if their only goal is selfish self-preservation? Again, you can't call that wrong unless you have an objective standard. But of course that leads us back to our last exchange, which I'm not willing to hash out all over again.
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  5. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

    Intrinsic value doesn't seem to be a coherent thing but that doesn't mean that it isn't true.

    That's why it's subjective since people would have different values and most people tend to condemn those with harmful values so it tends to work out eventually.

    I would think that God being perfectly fair would make all life equal but I guess not.

    Well nothing can be done and that sucks but proposing another type of value might not change their mind either.

    I know that, that's why I keep saying in my opinion.

    I don't understand why you stopped responding. Things were going well until I asked you how you knew God was good or that His nature could provide an objective standard and I didn't get a response, so not much was really hashed out TBH.
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  6. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    I appreciate you recognizing that. But I still don't understand why you find intrinsic value incoherent. I would hope that when you hear about someone being murdered, you feel a deep sense of injustice--not simply that you don't like what happened, but that you have a righteous anger about an actual wrong. That can only be a valid emotion if human life has intrinsic value. Without intrinsic value, the Nazis (who didn't bat an eye at gassing six million Jews) would be no more or less moral than those who were horrified and enraged over their atrocities.

    Do people condemn those with 'harmful values' in nations governed by Sharia law? The second you utter the phrase 'harmful values' you are ascribing a measure of morality. But you cannot have such a measure without God. Otherwise, Sharia countries can say "screw your moral standard, we think oppressing women and gays is a good thing."

    Well, I personally believe God is good because I believe the Bible reveals God to me. But even if I were to completely remove scripture from the conversation, I would still believe God is good for a few reasons:
    • I recognize within myself a desire to do good, but at times I also feel a desire to lie, be selfish, arrogant, etc. ... and yet, there's also something in me that knows I should encourage the desire to do good, and suppress the desire to be selfish. That sense of conscience is intrinsic. I didn't have to have it taught to me.
    • I have free will to choose how I live my life. If God exists, then it stands to reason that this freedom was something given by him. An all powerful God certainly could have created robots who are unable to choose, who can only do his exact bidding--but having a love relationship requires that you give the other party the freedom to leave. Part of the reason I believe God is good and loving is because he also gives us the freedom to accept or reject him.
    • From a purely scientific standpoint, the number of variables that have to come together perfectly in order for life to exist are so improbable that it's almost insane to think of it happening by accident. You'd be more likely to win the Powerball lottery on ten drawings in a row. To suggest there wasn't intelligent design behind the creation of the universe is, in my opinion, the suggestion of fools.
    Also, I stopped responding because there comes a point where I feel like we're just spinning our wheels, where no matter what I say, you'll have a challenge to it--which is fine, of course, as long as you're sincere. But often, I'll come to a point where I realize I'm debating with someone who simply has an axe to grind, or who has personal reasons for rejecting God which get hidden behind a veneer of intellectualism. Plus, I just have a life to live. Having a meaningful discussion about the single most important issue in life (in my opinion) requires a significant investment of thought and effort, and sometimes I just don't have it in me.

    But I will definitely grant that you've been very fair in your responses, and you've never devolved into personal attacks, which is a rarity in these kinds of exchanges. I do thank you for that.
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  7. jarvyjarvison

    jarvyjarvison Fapstronaut

    I think religion is prevalent because it fulfills a yearning deep in the human heart to be loved and favored by a higher power. Also, we seem to have a desire to worship. Some worship idols, some worship money, some worship God.

    I believe God has a purpose for each of us - both here on earth and in heaven.

    I believe even if there isn't a heaven, you should live as if there is one. Live your best life. Be the very best person you can be.

    EXPONENTIALLY Fapstronaut

    And "Jesus" means "God saves"

    EXPONENTIALLY Fapstronaut

    God has 3 persons or 3 parts: body (Jesus Christ), soul (Heavenly Father), spirit (Holy Spirit) and man has that same structure but because he's fallen by Adam & Eve he lacks the spirit so he's 0,666 of his completion. That's why you get the Holy Spirit inside your soul when you get saved and sealed and baptized by it. Also man cannot separate his 3 parts like God can do now.

    Anyway, at the very end of it all in eternity, saved people (Christians) will be "God all and in all"... man that sounds amazing, being God...as part of God, creating things, exploring, sharing, eternity in pure pleasures and joy and discoveries, without ANY sinful imperfection nor any sin !
  10. vowed

    vowed Fapstronaut

    Philosophy, metaphysics, and theology beg to differ.

    So is this truth the foundation of your belief system? How do you substantiate its truthfulness? You call it truth because you believe in it? You believe in it out of faith, making it an infallible dogma of your religion?

    Is this the second dogma in your belief system? How do you know there is "purpose"? Why not slip into nihilism? How do you know you have free will and are in control of your purpose? Plato's Allegory of the Cave and Descartes' Demiurge are equally solid arguments against it. What is "happy"? Is it absolute or relative? What are its ethics and social implications? Is it the happiness of self-giving or the happiness of egotism? Is happiness the ultimate end? If so, is this the perfect happiness of the Beatific Vision, the attainment of Nirvana, the hedonistic satisfaction of all drives (such as, in this context, fapping), the bliss of nothingness as we cease to exist? How do you rule out one and embrace the other?

    The first part is a very sound and logical statement. Indeed meditating on our mortality and weakness exposes the vanity of the world and exhorts us to live in the present moment. But we are not just immanent, earthly creatures acting out of instincts. We are transcendental. We ask the big questions and seek what is beyond. Our mortality spurs us to seek the things that are above, because life is so precious that deep inside we know everything cannot end with the death of our body, as certain and unavoidable as it may be.

    Just look at this website. Most humans have a natural sex drive, which can manifest itself in a distorted way through addictions such as porn, masturbation, etc. Yet we seek to overcome our instincts, master our body, better ourselves according to the pattern set by our mind, because we will it. This requires sacrifice and renunciation, but we embrace it because somewhere inside we have come to realize it is right and just to do so. This realization is a spiritual action.

    EXPONENTIALLY Fapstronaut

    The purpose of our creation is to please God, most of us don't and rebel out of the sinful fallen nature, ironically pleasing God is the best surest way to really please ourselves.
  12. SuperPowers

    SuperPowers Fapstronaut

    I don't, but I like to refer to God as the creator. The OP should be read as a philosophy, and it went straight past pretty much most you, yet it was quite simple.

    Well if were in a simulation then "God", lets refer to the creater please, is outside of the simulation so we can never know the creator.

    If you believe in religion then what can I say, good for you.

    No, you guys aren't getting it. I said without religion we cannot know anything about God. Get with the program guys.

    You don't know what you're talking about. Read the OP. And the word is "confused".

    I believe Jesus was a divine being, but not God. I believe Jesus contacted me through 333. I have been contacted by many angels in the past week and a half. 1111, 333, 444, 555, I shit you not!

    Because I'm free to do whatever I want. The creator allows it.

    And my purpose is mine. Its my primary goal. God didn't come down and give me a purpose, so there you go.

    Happy is relative.

    There are no ethics. Sure a sociopath could abuse that but that's how the creator made him.

    Happiness is not the end, its spiritual growth, consciousness, and I'm well on my way. Dogma does nothing! How can you find spirit through dogma, you done it out of reward and fear, its all bullshit. Today I seen a Burqa lady. Is that how you go to heaven? Obey Gods laws? Come on, no.

    The biggest crime is unhappiness, it brings everyone down, be happy and you will raise the vibration or the universe, there would be no crimes if there was happiness, it just cannot exist.

    Yeah I know, but we really don't know for sure. Not 100%

    You can intuitively know but you could never prove it. Still, live this life like its the only one you have, and know, that you will die! Could be tomorrow, or maybe you wont wake up tomorrow morning, can you guarantee it? You can't, you think the people who died today had any idea? They had no idea. This life is a gift that should be cherished. Sure, I believe it goes on. I'm pretty certain, but I can never be 100%

    I've even been given some evidence that I am protected and guided, the angels are telling me they're here, with me and there is more than this one physical existence.

    Semen retention is a way to find spiritual enlightenment. Your life force is in your semen, don't go wasting it into a tissue, keep it in you.

    When you can control your sexual urges, you're using spirit, because you are not your body, you are not your mind, you are not your emotions, and sexual urges are not you.

    How do you know what pleases God? You know nothing about God. Nobody does, did God tell you what pleases him(?)

    If its to please God you should be Muslim and worship Allah 5 times a day at a set time facing Meca, that's called a collective energy, and God could use us as spiritual battery packs, we are energy, the universe is energy, we can generate energy for this God (or Allah), makes sense. You probably are Muslim?
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  13. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    @EXPONENTIALLY Refining your claim, here's an expanded perspective. The purpose all creation was for us to be here, the children of God. The purpose of God is to see us grow and inherit it, and in turn further that work in the afterlife.

    p.s. Not all Christians accept a mysterious view of the "trinity".

    @SuperFan Just wanted to say it's been refreshing to read through your posts.

    Just to pick one thing out, I also think everyone can see evidence of God just by being alive and experiencing life. It's a miraculous thing designed by the ultimate masterful intelligence, our existence, the world and the cosmos, as well as the cells and molecules.

    EXPONENTIALLY Fapstronaut

    I read His word in the KJV Bible mainly Paul's epistle (our direct apostle today), look up "fruits of the Spirit". I'm saved on my way to Heaven once and for all, that is to say CHRISTIAN. Therefore no room for religious crazy hypocritical fearful degenerescence in my own conviction.
  15. What do you mean when you say 333 1111 444 555?
  16. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

    Yes I feel horrible about it and I would feel deeply as though it's wrong but I see no way of justifying my feelings as though it's some sort of objective truth. They're literally feelings? How can they be objective? And conversely the person who's done the act of evil would probably feel as though they've done something right, are their feelings objectively right as well?

    It could be a valid emotion even if morality is subjective since most people's natural response to atrocities are feelings of outrage and anger. I see intrinsic value as incoherent because all value I've ever seen has been when one has projected value onto something else rather than it somehow having some value in and of itself.

    They're harmful in my opinion but you can also objectively measure harm and suffering and show that the values carry harm and suffering with them.

    Not necessarily, as I said, harm and suffering can be objectively measured.

    That's how it is the real world unfortunately, everyone has their own personal standards of what they feel is right or wrong and telling them that what they're doing is objectively wrong according to a theological standard probably won't change their minds either.

    How do you know if you can trust that revelation?

    So you think God put that conscience there? What about people that have different consciences... did God put their own in them too?

    OK if you say so but IRL if another person leaves a relationship or rejects the loving advances of another person, they usually don't get burned or tortured forever for doing so.

    It is possible for it to happen by chance given the vast number of planets in the universe... I'm not saying that it did happen by chance but it is a possibility that given the vast number of planets in the universe, at least one of them would eventually have had the proper conditions to support life. Also IMO the human body and the design of this planet doesn't point to an intelligent designer if their end goal was the existence and survival of life or even the prosperity of humans.

    Fair enough, I respect that.

    Thank you as well.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2019
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  17. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Tying something I said back to the original thread... After a fashion, sure we make our own purpose. We have been given the honor of choice; in choosing our own destiny. The thing is, if we stick to God's purposes, we get to inherit that highest of kingdoms. Lesser purposes will receive lesser rewards.
  18. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    A first-person knowledge requirement is an impossible ask. Consider instead a pattern of learning to trust a source of knowledge.
    • science: Everyone would have to know everything about medicine to accept that a doctor knows what he is doing.
    • faith: Prophets have claimed direct access to the Creator - a selection of this is documented in the Bible.
    Are those two really so different? Pulling these together, consider my thought process below...

    Science and religion really are very very similar. For those missing out on faith, all that is lacking is to try the correct experiment.
    • One person has evidence, and asks others to verify the claims about their discovery:
      • science: Verifiable science benefits from reputability where similar results are able to be observed within designated parameters.
      • faith: Verifiable evidence for faith is also similar. It's just that some remain hard-hearted in unbelief and do not try to exercise faith. The instruction is simple: all people can grow spiritually by exercising faith.
    • Other people verify for themselves:
      • science: Once enough scientists have verified evidence, it becomes an accepted result. Then, others take basically on trust what that group of scientists has claimed.
      • faith: Adherents to a religious faith nearly always have moments of change in their life. They tell stories of doubt and what helped carry them through.
    • Many people benefit from the trappings of discovery:
      • science: The world gets to start using combustion engines, cell phones, electronic banking, and so forth. Applied science.
      • faith: Humanity gets to start living by happy principles like having loving relationships, helping our neighbors, raising children, and remembering our purpose in life. (And, in the end, inheriting much greater things in heaven.)
    • Learning how to then apply our trust becomes second nature:
      • science: I can turn on a cell phone and send a picture without knowing everything there is to know about the full stack of technology making that possible.
      • faith: I can hear a sermon from the Bible about a responsibility to my family and then go act on that and easily see the benefits, without hearing directly from my Creator in every instance.
    • HOWEVER. When in doubt, please do accept an invitation to test a specific principle of knowledge:
      • science: Go to college and learn all about thermodynamics or biology and you will understand science better for yourself.
      • faith: Pray to Jesus with a sincere heart, and you will personally know of the reality of God.

    We cannot know everything by ourselves!!!

    Neither about science, nor about faith.

    We have limited time on this earth. While we can't know everything, we must learn what to trust and test ideas for ourselves. We are receive much benefit from the trusted experience of others. We do not need to know all things for ourselves, but can exercise trust in proper principles, making great strides in understanding and growing in wisdom.

    As with science, and so with faith.
  19. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

    How do you know that they were actually angels?
  20. SuperPowers

    SuperPowers Fapstronaut

    Because yesterday I got 1111 again! And today I got 1234. 1234 are the angels telling you things are finally falling into place, and it makes total sense because I've pretty much solved a life long problem today, holly shit, but you know what, i'm not even reacting, its just like yeah, its angels, I'm thinking were living in the matrix, I now just have to ask the angels into my life, I have to ask, that's the only way, because they don't intrude, they don't want to spook, you, I told them I'm ready and I'm not scared and to come to me, be a part of my life, I even mentioned Jesus (as a non Christian because I got 333) I need to find out now what 1234 means and I have to invite the angels properly tonight.

    Sounds phaggy I know. Something for chicks, but its not, they're just spiritual being from other dimensions and they've come to me I don't know, because of my awakening. I don't even know what they are, they may even be my grandparents, I really don't know, but I wont be surprised if I continue to see angel numbers, its numerology and is mentioned in the Bible also (which I don't believe in). These numbers are the angels letting us know they're here, with us.
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019

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