3 conclusions about the creator (God)

A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion

  1. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

    745
    7,677
    123
    Well as I said I don't blame them, their life is decent enough on its own and they see no reason to believe in sin... why take a cure for a disease that you don't even believe exists?

    No it isn't, and it's unreasonable to assume that a finite, fallible being can figure out a supernatural mystery such as who the creator of the universe is, we don't even know or understand that much about physical reality yet we're somehow supposed to figure out the greatest supernatural mystery in all of existence? That's unreasonable IMO and any creator who's judging based on that is unreasonable too IMO. Religious truth claims are unverifiable as well, that's why they require faith to believe and there's enough evidence around to show why that's a bad method to getting to truth, so it doesn't even make sense to try to investigate a religion to see if it's true.

    No I can't since the bible is written in such a way that it can be easily interpreted to mean different things about the same issue. It really isn't that simple.

    I never said every religion would be true but that I would have to believe in all religions if I went some persons' standards of evidence. Their standard of evidence is so low that it constitutes believing just about anything. Also it very well could be the case that every religion has some slice of truth in it about God, so they could all in a sense be true... they could be true but just in different ways.

    Not necessarily, as I just said, all of them could be true but just in different ways. It's interesting that you would use logic in that way though since many skeptics use logic just like that to show logical inconsistencies with theism but when it's shown to believers that don't have an answer, all of a sudden, logic is a bad thing and you shouldn't use logic anymore. It's interesting how conveniently logic is used and then abandoned by some theists.

    And there are books written in contrast to those books, which give their own counter apologetic arguments that also seem to be quite compelling to me, couple this with the fact that IMO it's unreasonable to even investigate an unverifiable thing like religion since it's supernatural, I would have to remain agnostic about things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  2. bken

    bken Fapstronaut

    994
    1,517
    123
    According to physics the light of some stars can't possibly reach us in less than millions of years. Yet we're supposed to believe in a book claiming Earth to be thousands of years old. A book saying God needed 6 days to create one planet, but a single day to create billions of other stars and planets. You'd have to be pretty narrow-minded to disregard hard science in order to make a certain religion work.

    What makes certain religions so powerful is the fact they uphold the believer and downplay the apostate. A good example of this ego-touching practice can be found in the story of the Apostle Thomas. Thomas is shamed for his disbelief, the others, who "haven't seen yet have believed", are sanctified (for being less critical). They are in a way better than others, sinners. It isn't hard for a religion to attract souls in this fashion. Another way a religion can become powerful involves striking fear in the hearts of people. Follow us or you risk eternal burning in Hell. Pretty powerful stuff.

    You affiliate yourself with a religion in the hopes your consciousness doesn't end with death. This hope may manifest itself on a subconscious level, but in the end the afterlife is the core of the religion. I consider myself borderline Christian, borderline agnost. There are a lot of things the Bible preaches I can no longer resonate with. That and I've come to understand there is no point in believing something when clearly science has debunked most of it. This is just common sense. What good is defending a religion when the hard science is right there under our noses? Is Earth still flat?
    Even without religion, you can still believe in a God and an afterlife. I just don't think that on the other side of the veil a man with a gray beard will be waiting. Distant starlight is just one of the things that have made me reconsider the Bible. What's made me reconsider it above all is the selective, racist, violent fashion in which God acts in the Old Testament. Just think about it. Newborns slaughtered for the sins of their parents. Entire cities wiped out for not belonging to a certain race. Women, children, murdered. So much for 'Thou shalt not kill.' You will not kill, yet that's exactly the opposite of what the rest of the book entails.
    Have you actually read it? If so do you really believe a God would destroy innocent life over the sins of others? Because you can take the slaughter of newborns in Egypt quite literally.
    Ever wondered why God would fight the enemies of the Jews in Israel, but not in concentration camps? How come ancient people had the privilege of hearing God talk from the clouds, were they better? See, these are questions a only a critical mind will bring up. In the end it just all boils down to man made doctrine, indoctrination, attending Mass on Sundays out of fear of going to Hell when we've been taught the death of a man who lived 2000 years ago has saved us from that same Hell. Why are Churches still spreading a message of fear? Is it because they genuinely care about souls, or do they simply need the souls to keep themselves in business?

    Just think man.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  3. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    1,669
    3,860
    143
    The opposite could also be said: You'd have to be pretty narrow-minded to take religious texts at face-value.
     
  4. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    1,669
    3,860
    143
    Ever asked some religious Jews what they thought of that? Survivors? People who've lost loved ones?
     
    vxlccm likes this.
  5. bken

    bken Fapstronaut

    994
    1,517
    123
    Although irrelevant I have heard of people losing their faith whilst in the camps for this exact reason, yes. Can they be blamed? No. At the same time I'm sure religion must have been a light in that darkness. The Holocaust was bad enough, knowing you are Jewish I fear having hit a weak spot and would wish to apologize myself for that if I did. It has not been my intention to somehow criticize anything to do with the Jewish faith or the persecution of the Jewish people. All due respect for the people who went through this and their next of kin.
     
  6. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    1,669
    3,860
    143
    Thanks, but my point was less the "weak spot" and more "there he goes pulling the holocaust card" - if you think religion will have one simple answer for tough questions - any hard question, not just the holocaust and other disaster - well, then no, you probably won't get that. Complicated issues will probably have complicated answers - which is also why some people saw light in the darkness.
     
    vxlccm likes this.
  7. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    That sounds like a very optimistic agnostic perspective :)... willing to accept much information, even those things thought "unverifiable" but that was experienced by others.

    However, I would like to add that in no case would I expect anyone to not verify claims of faith. Please do verify all truth claims for yourself!!! I just can't verify them for you. A journey of faith must be undertaken by each individual. Objections to that methodology are what creates the gulf. Many, many true believers began as doubters or even deniers who then entered into the great experiment of personal experience with faith.

    Wherever you have had that interest piqued, I would sincerely invite you to keep exploring! It's cool that you've already put some effort in there, taking time to be aware of and consider other people's experiences. Continue! Whether that's reading historical accounts, or listening to more modern interviews, then it will be a fruitful venture :D

    Embarking on your own, though, such as experimenting with personal prayers, is still a required element for that actual finely-tuned experiment of your own which will absolutely yield the correct result.
     
  8. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    How do you explain the thousands of elite scientists who are believers? It does science a tremendous disservice to pretend it can answer everything. Science is not the only arbiter of truth.

    You're misunderstanding the verse. Thomas wasn't shamed. Jesus just used him to make a point--that after he would leave the earth, there would be reasons for believing other than physical sight. He wasn't saying "blessed are those who just believe for absolutely no reason whatsoever."

    You mean there are things in the Bible that no longer resonate with you. You don't get to determine what you resonate with. Pet peeve of mine.

    And yet there are people with far greater understandings of science who completely disagree with you. Like this guy:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/...cientific-method-prizewinning-physicist-says/

    Bro, no offense, but you are not unique. These questions have been debated since Jesus himself was alive.

    I most certainly do, and it is why I am a Christian.
     
    Hold it in, brilliantidiot and vxlccm like this.
  9. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    Spoken like someone who hasn't really done much Bible reading. When Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me," that's a pretty hard statement to misinterpret. It's about as direct and emphatic as you can get.

    I don't know what "standard of evidence" you're referring to, but there have been dozens and dozens of archeological discoveries that have given evidence to historical details that we previously only knew from the Bible. That doesn't prove that the spiritual claims of the Bible are true, obviously, but history scholars are in pretty solid agreement that the Bible is remarkably trustworthy as a historical account. Also, things were prophesied in scripture, sometimes hundreds of years before they happened. Ezekiel's prophesy about the destruction of Tyre is absolutely bonkers in how accurately it predicts the events, and that was 250 years before it happened. Jeremiah prophesied the destruction of Babylon, which was by far the strongest city of its time--like if someone were to prophesy the destruction of New York City today. Secular historians admit that these things did happen.

    And the prophesies about the Messiah? Again, hundreds of years before his birth, prophesies were written about where Messiah would be born, where he would be raised, that he would be betrayed (specifically for 30 pieces of silver, no less), that he would undergo brutal suffering, that he would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey ... Jesus fulfilled every one of them.

    Conversely, there hasn't been a single Islamic prophesy in the Quran that has been fulfilled. Not one.

    So, purely looking at historical information, the standard of evidence for Christianity is much higher than you're giving it any credit for.

    I can't speak for other believers, but I've never once dismissed the importance of logic. I'm a Christian because of logic.

    Suit yourself. I'm no longer interested in this point/counterpoint thing. But you'll have to lie in the bed that you've made.
     
    Hold it in likes this.
  10. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    I'm just going to leave this right here:

    [​IMG]
     
    Hold it in, brilliantidiot and vxlccm like this.
  11. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    @Brokenman123 I don't know why you're fighting so hard against the idea that there's a loving God who wants a meaningful relationship with you. You seem to be in greater need of Him than anyone else in these forums.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. ⏳⏳⏳

    ⏳⏳⏳ Fapstronaut

    Brokenman123 and Hros like this.
  13. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Well, my tone would be a little less the cry of hypocrisy. Probably @SuperFan is just holding up a mirror.

    A relevant point for me is why those of us with faith draw much comfort in spiritual things, and why we accuse the rest of the world of being miserable. Probably all of us agree addiction is misery. The faith claim about sin is essentially similar - that it creates misery by separation from God. So, conversely, coming closer to God helps bring joy into life.
     
    Hros and Hold it in like this.
  14. Hold it in

    Hold it in Fapstronaut

    344
    514
    93
    Why am I a Christian? I was convicted of Sin. And I need a Savior
    It's that simple, having fallen away from God for some time I can understand why some don't believe, but for me anyways once the Holy Spirit meets you where you are there is no turning back. I have never been in a presence like that before. I've never met a love like Jesus before

    It's life changing.
     
    SuperFan and vxlccm like this.
  15. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    Exactly. In no way am I trying to shame anyone. I just think it's sad that someone with so much internal pain is so resistant to the love of God ... like someone who's drowning and deliberately pushing away the life preserver being offered.
     
    vxlccm and brilliantidiot like this.
  16. ⏳⏳⏳

    ⏳⏳⏳ Fapstronaut

    Some choose not to take pain-relieving drugs because they don't like the idea of dulling themselves to reality, making themselves feel better with lies.

    The drug never really works anyways, the doubts seep in eventually and the person panics, frantically looking for something that will erase the cognitive dissonance. They'll repeat mantras to shut off the logical part of the brain, talk to someone who's also desperate not to lose their warm illusion so they'll say, "Everything will be alright, all you need is faith." and this will succeed, the person will find themselves again in the sweet suffocating fog of hope.

    Don't make the same mistake. Accept reality and embrace it. Fuck targeting computers, use the Force.
     
  17. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Being as you're talking to a clean-living Mormon, you know that totally does resonate!

    You're comparing mind-altering drug use to mere pondering of a philosophy and accepting the reality of emotions being connected to spirituality?

    Faith is not all you need. You need to eat breakfast. You need to work hard. But, without faith, there can be no discovery of spiritual truths. That's all you're being told.

    Being very familiar with the cognitive dissonance arguments, it is admittedly sad that some people do feel to become so boxed in. For the record, I always encourage someone to live by their own conscience! God exists either way, and you are only accountable for the light which you have received. The cool thing is, once you do get to know God, there is no dissonance. There is a clear understanding that it is no illusion, but a metaphysical reality.

    Reliably, in the journey of faith, there comes a grand realization that there is a lot more to the existence of life than cognition alone.
     
    Hold it in likes this.
  18. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    On one hand, I can respect this. Despite often feeling depressed, I've rejected anti-depressants ever since I tried them because I hated how "numb" and "checked-out" they made me feel.

    And I would agree with you that pleasure or peace based on a lie is worth very little. But obviously I don't believe Christianity is a lie.

    What I ask of people like @Brokenman123 is to simply consider that there might be validity to the Christian view. In our exchanges, every point I make gets a retort smacking it down. I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm going to just logically convince someone into the Christian faith, but I feel like I made some decent points, and I've never heard "you know, that's a valid point. I've never really considered that." Acknowledging that your debate opponent has some coherent thoughts doesn't mean you've conceded defeat. And in the end, it shouldn't be about victory/defeat in the debate sense anyway. These conversations should be about finding truth and about following evidence, wherever it leads.

    In the end, the entire story of the gospel sits on a single premise--that all men are fundamentally broken. Through Jesus, we have a remedy for that brokenness. And when I see someone who's user name is literally about being broken, and when his status updates are repeated, echoed expressions of that brokenness, I feel obligated to share the hope and healing that I've found. I've spent a lot of my life searching for healing in other places, and it isn't there. Those wrong pursuits are what brought me to these forums.

    To the extent that any of my comments have come off as arrogant or snarky, I apologize to everyone in the thread. I'm certainly not perfect, and on occasion I can get caught up in the ego-driven desire to "be right" instead of extending love and leading someone to what I believe is true.
     
    vxlccm likes this.
  19. ⏳⏳⏳

    ⏳⏳⏳ Fapstronaut

    @vxlccm @SuperFan good answers and politely presented too. You're both very wise.

    I respect that you're in the camp that acknowledges that faith is a choice. It bothers me when I hear people claim that their religion is borne out of historical facts or even logically inevitable. Besides that it's an untrue and dishonest position it also diminishes the value of their own faith! In Christianity, believing in Jesus of Nazareth's divine nature and resurrection despite it being completely unlikely to be the case is kind of the point...

    Accepting religion as a reality of the same realness as oxygen and sunsets and trains has huuge consequences. If one honestly thinks that the world is run by an opinionated god, everything that person does and thinks will be influenced by that. And that is ultimately my problem with religion. You're getting a relief of existential angst but you're losing freedom of thought.
     
  20. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

    745
    7,677
    123
    Sorry, I'm not avoiding anything, I've just been busy, I'll respond soon.
     

Share This Page