A question for you, PAs.

EyesWideOpen

EyesWideOpen

Fapstronaut
How do you deal with the shame of your addiction? How are you overcoming it? Have you overcome it? How is it holding you back? What are the tools you are using or have used? How long has (was) this a struggle for you?

Edited to add: How has the shame and/or guilt of your addiction affected your ability to show empathy to your spouse/SO?
 
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Not an addict, but I thought it might be helpful to define shame versus guilt here. I know my husband wasn't clear on the differences when he started his recovery. This is an excerpt from shame researcher Brene Brown's blog:

Based on my research and the research of other shame researchers, I believe that there is a profound difference between shame and guilt. I believe that guilt is adaptive and helpful – it’s holding something we’ve done or failed to do up against our values and feeling psychological discomfort.

I define shame as the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging – something we’ve experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection.

I don’t believe shame is helpful or productive. In fact, I think shame is much more likely to be the source of destructive, hurtful behavior than the solution or cure. I think the fear of disconnection can make us dangerous.
 
Shame is an ongoing struggle. A lot of the time it can start off as guilt. If i don't journal or talk about the guilt it can progress into shame.

For me shame is represented as a black hole that I'm falling into and it has no bottom. It is extrememly lonely and scary. When Im in shame I beat myself up by calling myself names and putting myself down. As a result I start to see myself as a victim. This takes me away from rational thought and accountability.

I would say that this is one of the most destructive emotions and is one of the emotions that i used P and M to numb myself with.

Now i try to address shame by meditating, journaling, and talking to members in the 12 step program i am working. I find that talking about the shame with some one that you can trust and is empathetic is one of the best ways to minimize it.

I also recomend Brene Brown to anyone trying to learn about shame.
 
So... The irl group I attend teaches that shame comes from some wound. Wound -> shame -> medicate. So the shame needs to be worked through, but it's the wound that ultimately needs to be addressed. It's the wound that is the origin of our belief that we are broken, unworthy of love, intrinsically flawed. So while shame is important, it's not the final destination.

That said, one big step in calming the shame for me was the irl group. Talking with other men who are normal showed me that I may not be the freak I was believing.

A second tool was simply learning that I felt shame (I could not have put that in words a few years ago) and beginning to recognize the feeling when it came up.

Lastly, the nifty thing about negative shame coping skills (like pmo) is that the activity itself adds more shame! Kind of a self-perpetuating perfect storm. So getting a little sobriety also helps.

I do not mean to imply I have this dragon licked. But I'm better than I was. Brene is great- but I find her a little short on practical fix it steps. Before her, there was John Bradshaw. He's got a classic book on shame, and a few yt videos also. Check those out.
 
Shame

I have my SAA groups
where I speak and cope
with all the feelings
coming out in sobriety.

Writing my sexual history
and reading it to a sponsor.
His saying yep, I did that too.

Tonight I could speak of what I did
Face to face
so I can handle it
and understand how it came to be.

Shamed I ogle.
Vestiges of PA
Working through it.
Observing it and
improving my choices
And actions.

Seeing how I got here
And begin to see
the alternative that
I can become.
Able to empathize
And be present.

Shame is so black
sometimes it pulls you in.

Move through it to get out.
Praying alleviates the shame.

So maybe as I walk through the valley, I shall fear no evil
because I have you all by my side.
 
Thanks for asking the question. I'm pondering it. I used to feel so much shame about myself and I don't really anymore. I'm wondering how to articulate how that changed. Obviously, it was everything I did and that happened to me in the past 8 years but I'm trying to figure out exactly what and state it succinctly. I think I gained more recovery of my self-esteem from codependence recovery than from addiction recovery. That's why I toot that horm so much.

Peace,
-Quin
 
Just heard to Brene Brown's 'Listening to Shame' Ted Talk.
Could not post; you'll need to google. Thanks for referral!

Awesomeness.

I think I dumped my journal and initial posts
due to shame and feeling rejected as if I were a mistake.

I wrote to all here to reach out with my most personal feelings,
knowing that the most personal is the most general.
I made my self vulnerable as many have done here
from whom I have learned sobriety.

Yet, this is on the internet,
the closest thing to eternity that secular life knows.

So when I found that nobody responded to some posts,
or I felt criticized for one post that I can recall;
The biggest critic in my life, myself, spoke
saying something to the effect that I am a fraud,
what do I know? I am wrong, a failure as a man.

Who wants that floating out there?

I kept my AP and a question to @phuck-porn! and @Sadgirl

I missed this place for the connections that previous posts give you;
and volume of searchers and help available here.

BB mentioned:
'Shame as the Swamp of the soul'
Secrecy, Silence and Judgement maintain Shame
empathy breaks the shame

Making yourself vulnerable brings up shame,
but it is vulnerability through which we
are innovative,
creative and make change.

I am a creative who designs and makes things.

Sex Positive does not stop
or begin at the bedroom door.

It is something in everything we do,
a kindness to a coworker, (and such)
an environment conducive to connection.

I'm even wondering if my style of writing is wrong,
but I write this way to be kind
and easily read.

Its good to know my reasons for hope
and why I am here.
 
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Trappist said:
BB mentioned:
'Shame as the Swamp of the soul'
Secrecy, Silence and Judgement maintain Shame
empathy breaks the shame

Making yourself vulnerable brings up shame,
but it is vulnerability through which we
are innovative,
creative and make change.
Click to expand...

I must be clearer next time,
those were quotes by BB.
I wanted to forward her msge,
as I could not post her Ted talk.

Thank you, otherwise!
 
As the significant other of a PA who whenever I link him something helpful from this site refuses to take a look at it because of feeling "disgust and anger", 9 months after no PMO my SO still seems to have issues dealing with shame. And I think as long as he hasn't figured out how to deal with them, he will just be a 'dry drunk'. I think something must have happened in his childhood that made him learn this defense mechanism, as JustSadPorn said, to preserve his self-image of being a good person, being worthy of love. He just continues to deflect his feelings of shame onto his environment. The other day we were just having a big fight because of his inability to feel and own up to the shame he is confronted with. As we were on our way to the store, there was a busty woman showing off her cleavage just coming our way and I caught him staring for at least a couple of seconds. I let go of his hand and started acting distant, when he asked what is wrong, I told him and he tried to deny it at first, actually saying "trust me" while lying to my face. Then finally he admitted to it, saying that seeing "vibrant colors" and "sizeable breasts" will catch his attention easily, and he more or less tried to minimize his actions by saying that it's just his natural instincts. He also tried to invalidate my feelings by saying that it's not "a big deal". So for the rest of the day, all I got from him was extreme hostility and resentment, and for what, for being hurt by his own actions. With that kind of defense mechanism, his love for me is his biggest weakness. The more he hurts me, the more shame he has to feel.
 
AngelofDarkness said:
As the significant other of a PA who whenever I link him something helpful from this site refuses to take a look at it because of feeling "disgust and anger", 9 months after no PMO my SO still seems to have issues dealing with shame. And I think as long as he hasn't figured out how to deal with them, he will just be a 'dry drunk'. I think something must have happened in his childhood that made him learn this defense mechanism, as JustSadPorn said, to preserve his self-image of being a good person, being worthy of love. He just continues to deflect his feelings of shame onto his environment. The other day we were just having a big fight because of his inability to feel and own up to the shame he is confronted with. As we were on our way to the store, there was a busty woman showing off her cleavage just coming our way and I caught him staring for at least a couple of seconds. I let go of his hand and started acting distant, when he asked what is wrong, I told him and he tried to deny it at first, actually saying "trust me" while lying to my face. Then finally he admitted to it, saying that seeing "vibrant colors" and "sizeable breasts" will catch his attention easily, and he more or less tried to minimize his actions by saying that it's just his natural instincts. He also tried to invalidate my feelings by saying that it's not "a big deal". So for the rest of the day, all I got from him was extreme hostility and resentment, and for what, for being hurt by his own actions. With that kind of defense mechanism, his love for me is his biggest weakness. The more he hurts me, the more shame he has to feel.
Click to expand...
https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.php?threads/rock-stars-lists.124256/
check out rockstars lists. there is a scale for ogling that might help him.
 
I don't really feel shameful but definitely feel frustrated and a little guilty at times. I don't feel bad looking at other women or porn but I do feel bad about why I'm wasting time doing non productive things like pmoing . Feel bad why I'm so heartless sometimes to my so. Why I'm doing pmo that hurts my so but I don't feel any remorse feeling. I feel guilty that I don't feel guilty enough for my acts.

To me, the only way out is positive thinking and God. Consciously reducing and forcing myself to limit pmo helps also.
 
Trappist said:
So when I found that nobody responded to some posts,
or I felt criticized for one post that I can recall;
The biggest critic in my life, myself, spoke
saying something to the effect that I am a fraud,
what do I know? I am wrong, a failure as a man.
Click to expand...
@Trappist I know the streets of that place you describe so well. I spend a lot of time there too. I want you to know though that I see you as one the really important ones here on NF for me to read. You have a way of saying really weighty stuff in few words. I am encouraged of that. I take paragraphs to communicate one thought. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. In all truth you have a lot to add to this place, and the world as well I'm thinking.

I'm sorry for the posts you made that weren't responded to. I know how that feels. To log back on 10 times in a day to see the little red box...

I think there is a path out of this shame based life. Lately I have been listening to old talks by John Bradshaw. I'd be interested in your thoughts on him.
 
Thank you truly!

Feel grateful for those that are brave and vulnerable
enough to post their struggles and feelings as they recover.

I remember John Bradshaw from the 90's,
when I did work in this area.
I let it go and the PA continued untreated, though.

phuck-porn! said:
I'm sorry for the posts you made that weren't responded to. I know how that feels. To log back on 10 times in a day to see the little red box...
Click to expand...

So true and this is a bit addictive...

phuck-porn! said:
I think there is a path out of this shame based life. Lately I have been listening to old talks by John Bradshaw. I'd be interested in your thoughts on him.
Click to expand...

I still recall things from the 90's when I heard him,
which got me started back here.
Am discovering BT as a potential for my SO
and do my work trying to be aware of
my effects on her.

See he has videos on U-Tube
and that he died 2 years ago, sadly.

One fellow spoke of his addict sitting on the headboard
so that when he woke in the morning,
the addict would say,

"I've been waiting for you..."

Recall that I have a day to day reprieve,
if renewed daily.
​
@phuck-porn! wishing you the best as you grow with your SO each day.
 
I'm just seeing this thread now. Shame was a huge factor for me, so I wanted to respond even though my comment is quite late.

Shame was the #1 thing that held me back and kept me stuck for so long. I used PMO as my drug of choice for 25 years. Except for a handful of isolated occasions, I never talked to anyone about it. I was so ashamed this was part of my life. It was easier to ignore it and pretend it did not exist. I walled off PMO from the rest of my (relatively normal) life.

The shame of PMO definitely hurt my ability to empathize. I could never fully connect with my wife because there was always a piece of myself that I held back. And when hard things came up in the marriage, PMO was my coping mechanism, which made me feel more ashamed and so I would isolate even more. It is a miracle that we are still together, tbh.

When the stress of the double life reached a critical point, when the pain of staying stuck finally seemed to me to outweigh the pain of change, I realized I was really and truly stuck. I could not even begin to think about moving forward. The weight of shame was so great, I could not see how to advance. I could never forgive myself for the literal *decades* of PMO and all the emotional damage it had brought about.

This is where the truth of forgiveness in Christ became real to me and was my lifeline. I had grown up in church and assented in my mind to the tenets of belief, but in many ways it was never real to me. Just as I had held part of myself back from my wife, I had done the same with God, always reserving for myself those moments "alone" with PMO.

But when I wanted to be done with PMO once and for all and found I could not put it down, that was when God's forgiveness literally set me free. I was told I was forgiven by God, that I was OK with him. Not because of anything I had done, but because of what Jesus had done on my behalf. Because of that sacrifice, I was innocent in God's sight. And if this is how the Creator of the universe saw me, who was I to say any different? This is the revolutionary idea that propelled me into recovery, and it is my touchstone still.

This all happened about six years ago. There has been a lot of work to do to access that forgiveness. I had to learn to rest in the truth of the reality of God's view of me instead of my own view of myself (which was much, much worse). I had to make amends however I could for all the harm I had caused. I had to confess all of this to my wife, which I count among the most difficult days of my life. I had to get honest and stay honest with a group of APs. It has been a journey, and I have not reached my final destination yet!

However, one thing I know for sure: Shame was the anchor that held me fast; God's forgiveness was what set me free.
 
How did shame and guilt affect my life? They were my fuel. I lived on shame and guilt. To the point that once i got sober i would look for things to feel guilty about. I cannot tell you the number of times i have tried to feel guilty out of habit only to come up with nothing. Getting off that thought pattern is a work in progress, but just becoming more aware of all of my emotions has been really helpful. Also, practicing curiousity. Like when i am feeling something saying to myself "hmm i wonder why i am feeling that."

Also, i read a couple Brene Brown books and they helped to illuminate the shame and what it does.
 
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