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A Scientific Discussion regarding the Pros and Cons of Rebooting (Respect required)

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Sir_Dave, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. Sir_Dave

    Sir_Dave Fapstronaut

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    Welcome to the discussion SunShadow

    An incredible point to make and one that I have not explored nearly enough. I will do some research into this as I am very uneducated on the topic of nocturnal ejaculations. Is it enough? What is the reason for it? Why does it happen? Does it happen with everyone? These are all questions I am yet to explore. This is a wonderful piece to bring to the discussion. Thank you ever so much. I will post a response to your point in due course.
     
  2. IGY

    IGY Guest

    I can understand your interest in researching these issues Sir. But it seems you have posited a number of opinions before availing yourself of all the research out there. Here are some examples:
    If I have misunderstood you, I am desolate.
     
  3. Sir_Dave

    Sir_Dave Fapstronaut

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    Hello there IGY, Wonderful to hear from you.

    I am sorry to hear that you feel I have not provided evidence throughout the forum I have provided references to back up a few of my concerns. This is not to say that I have not stated my opinion. I first need an opinion in order to argue my point. Think of this as my theory. I then hypothesise and back up my claims made from these hypothesis with journal articles. Here are the list of articles I have referenced as of this time.

    I am sure you will be able to scroll through the discussion and find the appropriate places for these references.

    References:

    Iversen. (1992). Skinner's early research: From reflexology to operant conditioning. American psychologist, 47(11), 1318-1328.

    Milyavskaya, M., Inzlicht, M., Hope, N., & Koestner, R. (2015). Saying "no" to temptation: Want-to motivation improves self-regulation by reducing temptation rather than by increasing self-control. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Personality Processes and Individual Differences, 109(4), 677-693.

    Pottinger, A., Carroll, K., & Mason, G. (2015). Male attitude towards masturbating: an impediment to infertility evaluation and sperm parameters. First International Journal of Andrology, 48(7), 774-778.

    Steketee, G., Quay, S., & White, K. (1991). Religion and guilt in OCD patients. Journal of Anxiety Disorders, 5(4), 359-367.

    Wass, R., Harland, T., McLean, A., Miller, E., & Nui-Sim, K. (2015). "Will press lever for food": behavioural conditioning of students through frequent high-stakes assessment. Higher Education Research and Development, 34(6), 1324-1326.
     
  4. IGY

    IGY Guest

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  5. Sir_Dave

    Sir_Dave Fapstronaut

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    This is amazing stuff. Thank you thank you. Very useful!
     
  6. IGY

    IGY Guest

    Oh yes, I appreciate that you have provided the references which you have kindly reiterated. However, I am not a scientist and my layman's understanding of the scientific method is outmoded or even a misconception. :eek: What I mean is the statement, "I first need an opinion in order to argue my point." I could understand this as a premise in a debating scenario (such as a high school debating competition). But I assumed that when a scientific review is undertaken, all opinions are left at the door, so to speak. I thought that you would research; form a hypothesis; create an antithesis; and finally come to a thesis. Anyway, whatever you find and report back with, will be of interest I'm sure.
     
    Sir_Dave likes this.
  7. Sir_Dave

    Sir_Dave Fapstronaut

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    I have read through this article and find it incredibly interesting. It raises a lot of very good points that should be looked into. Pieces like this are the bedrock of all research, we first need to explore and observe and then we can begin collecting data.

    I will not move onto reading through the journal article you have linked and I hope it is just as interesting as the review article.
     
  8. Sir_Dave

    Sir_Dave Fapstronaut

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    Very astute indeed. Regarding the opinions I am making, I am not doing so scientifically nor am I claiming it is scientific. The only things I am claiming to be scientific are those that I provide evidence for. Currently I am on an internet forum discussing with people of similar interest. I am accepting the opinions of others and sharing mine. Where someone would like to argue a point I will then argue my case with evidence. There is science for and against almost anything in psychology and it all starts from metaphysics. One can not simply conduct an study without first indulging in some form of opinion based discussion whether those opinions be discussed with others or explored through meta-cognition.

    The irony of my response is that it is incredibly opinion based as it delves into the realms of meta-theoretical assumptions. Of which I am neither Karl Popper nor Werner Heisenberg and do not wish to challenge the current paradigm just yet.

    Just a quick edit note. I appologise if some of this response comes off as jargon to you. Please take it as a compliment as I am making the assumption based on your responses that you are a well educated person and would appreciate the use of vocabulary and also understand the humour in "Of which I am neither Karl Popper nor Werner Heisenberg and do not wish to challenge the current paradigm just yet."

    Thank you for your input
     
  9. IGY

    IGY Guest

    That is fair enough. I don't have a problem with that. I just wanted to give my feedback. Thanks for explaining things Sir.
     
    Sir_Dave likes this.
  10. I don't see how that is relevant. They are measuring how comfortable people are masturbating. How do you propose this is connected to people who choose to abstain? I have literally been comfortable masturbating in public ...yet I now choose to abstain... do I fit in that group? Clearly not. I think most of us here have been very comfortable masturbating most of our lives... we have now decided to abstain to some degree for various reasons. This is a completely different set than the group that just is, and possibly has always been, uncomfortable with masturbation. And to make your point even weaker the study states: "Semen quality was not associated with masturbating comfort"... So they are not less fertile because they masturbate less... they have some other sexual dysfunction that makes it harder for them to procreate regardless of the fertile capacity of their sex organs... that it turns out that men who have difficulty masturbating have other sexual dysfunctions is not very illuminating for me....

    I am familiar with some of this research.
    As a side note: For many years I have hoped this were possible. I would have even considered taking a drug to achieve this. My attitude is different now. I consider the greatest benefit and value for me as a person is to be in this struggle to reach abstinence. I do not want it to be taken away from me. I want to win the battle, not circumvent it.
    But to your point: this is again not actually relevant. Because you would have to show that this can be applied to something as basic and hardwired as sex. I do not think it can. Many things about sex are learned it is true. But the basic behavior is 'pre-programmed' if you will. A typical child becoming an adult does not have to 'learn' about sex as a behavior to 'do it' and does not need to have it artificially rewarded and reinforced. [Just as humans do not have to learn language from others... there is an interesting case of twins raised by deaf grandparents in complete isolation who spontaneously 'invented' their own sophisticated language]. By which I mean I am convinced it simply develops naturally in the absence of any external input. Put a male and female child with no knowledge of sex on an island by the time they are adults they will be having sex (barring certain conditions being met). Furthermore even if it were true that you could atrophy your sexuality by not using your genitals it is simply not the case that physical abstinence ends your sexuality. Your brain is your real sex organ. In my own experience erotic dreams, erections during sleep, and erotic interactions (of a more intense but less carnal level) continue. It really strikes me as odd that in order for my future self to perform sexually, this core requirement to survival of the species, that I would need to artificially stimulate myself otherwise my ability to perform this most basic bodily function would become diminished.

    As far as I can tell you are overly interested in the medical benefits and drawbacks as it pertains to fertility and increased cancer. I admit I was briefly concerned about this too when I started to get serious about this endeavor. It seemed to me that the benefits outweighed any possible disadvantages (even if the disadvantages turn out to actually be real), and that even within the extremely limited and narrow perspective of cancer risk and fertility. In my own case I was really only looking for excuses to not fight, or limit my fight with the addiction. You are far more curious than I am and your real motives for this interest are purer than mine.

    This strikes me as very odd statement. I am convinced that this masturbation culture is a new thing. A side effect of birth control / the sexual revolution / the hyper sexualized media. I think it is highly probable that the prevalence of masturbation in the general population *is* the new behaviour... and that abstinence in different forms was the norm for humans up till as little as about 50 years ago. No way to really prove that as far as I can tell... it just seems highly likely to me... for sure in my own experience I noticed that desaturation of sexual content and abstinence of several months changed me. I have reduced preoccupation and I would now say have lost my sexual obsession... yet instead of being constantly in some state of sexual exhaustion I feel as virile as a bull... my general health and capacity to take care of myself, eat better, lose weight, exercise has also improved markedly...
     
  11. NickMat

    NickMat Fapstronaut

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    No, the body isn't "broken", that's ridiculous. You wouldn't call the body broken because you need to feed it right? And you wouldn't call the body broken because it needs sleep... and you wouldn't call the body broken because it needs water... and if you don't use your muscles they'll atrophy, does that mean the body is broken?

    Eating, drinking, sleeping, fucking... these are things humans do buddy.
     
  12. @NickMat ... but defecating eating drinking and sleeping are biological requirements for an individuals survival, humans do not need to have sex to survive... and most don't (children and old people)... and to survive as a species they only need to do it a limited number of times. Yet you seem to be saying that it is unhealthy to not be having sex all the time.. that would be a pretty serious flaw in the human body.... Having regular sex as recreation is a luxury we can indulge in because of modern technology... it is not 'natural'... the human species would not have survived... and the idea that all men were just masturbating when they weren't getting women pregnant... strikes me as an addicts projection more than anything that is reasonable to believe.... but in respect to the OP it cannot be proven... maybe you are right and adolescent and adult males were always weak minded self indulgent self servicing wankers... and maybe because of this an actual real biological weakness has developed making it unhealthy not to do this... I just don't believe it... I think it is nothing more than nebulous rationalizing myth of modern culture.
     
  13. L'Étranger

    L'Étranger Fapstronaut

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    I've written a post a few weeks back asking the same questions. Glad to see this one, critical sense is important. I enjoy the community going around here and I'm sure a lot of people got better because of it. But there is some kind of dogma that shows up once in a while in some posts that I find counterproductive. I do not believe that stopping to PMO will magically make you allmighty in any amount of time.

    Going through a few articles on the subject, it seemed to my interpretation that the problems induced by porn, like PIED, could be more related to the fact that our sexual expections could not exist in real life. The stress, the smells, the ups and downs of being intimate with someone else is never going to ''feel'' like what can be watched.

    I personally think that putting your energy into productive things, meeting people, working out, finding gratification elsewhere is really the key. Reconnecting with the world and spending less time with virtual stuff. And for that to happen, a lot of people more or less addicted to PMO are better off giving it up, because every time they put time into that, they don't in something else. And like every addiction, it can easily feel like the only thing you need to feel okay on the very short term.

    That being said, don't give up your goals towards NOFAP. It might not be the incredible result that is so important, but the journey it takes to get there.
     
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  14. The Blue Ocean

    The Blue Ocean Fapstronaut

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    I just have a 14 days streak. But "completely abstaining from sexual release" is impossible, right?

    I mean: there is those dreams that unconsciously makes us relief sometimes. Some call those dreams 'wet dreams'.
    And those makes some sort of release, as you speak of, right? :)
     
  15. The Blue Ocean

    The Blue Ocean Fapstronaut

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    Oh. I read your post after posting mine. But I, myself, agree with you. Masturbation isn't the only way to release. :)
     
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  16. Joe peasci

    Joe peasci Fapstronaut

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    When u say abstaining from porn only favours those who are addicted in the way obese people are addicted to food, ur missing the fact that the vast majority of those who watch porn are addicted, therefore it favours a lot of people which makes wat ur saying redundant.. The average person is not addicted to food to the extent that the average porn user is addicted to porn.. Porn is inherently harmful and there is no ability to keep it in moderation.. If one meal was as good as 1 pmo, I would be obese.. I also don't feel like shit after eating or guilty but with pmo I do..
     
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  17. Just the abstract, you need to convince me there is something of relevance in it before I am going to pay money to read it ;)

    They have a sexual function that impacts their fertility and masturbation *and yet* their reduced function does not impact their sperm. If anything I would conclude from this that without a sexual function issue abstinence will not impact fertility at all.
    If the article makes the opposite point of the abstract than perhaps it is relevant... is this case?

    If it were not hardwired in people to some degree then people would die out if they were not taught to have sex...? It's an interesting notion, not sure it warrants a study.

    Well no, it didn't come out of head, it is just a surprising data point that I recalled. Procreation is a primal function that humans have in common with animals. It does not need to be taught in order for it to work. There is even s littlev evidence that language, which seems far more artifical and far more in need of education, does not need to be taught for it to occur. It is not a "story" this is a well known and well studied case. You may argue that an example of people figuring out how to procreate without being taught was mere luck. But twins creating a sophisticated language in a void (if that was indeed the case) cannot be simply luck. But it's a curiosity and not germane to the the discussion..

    I like most near average men and go for long periods without sexual opportunity. Your line of reasoning is suggesting that it could be unhealthy to not masturbate if we are not having sex...

    I don't see a contradiction... Here and there I am arguing against a general premise that sex is a need that is a fundamental requirement for health / survival. It is procreative and it's fun and in the context of our culture one of the most addictive things there is.

    And I have provided arguments as to why what you have presented so far does not strike me as significant.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2016
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  18. NickMat

    NickMat Fapstronaut

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    I agree with you here I think ^

    I'm not saying that humans need to be having sex "all the time", just as we don't need to be constantly eating. I do believe that somewhat regular sex is natural, because most times it will take more than once to impregnate a woman, and men are able to have multiple mates. But when are brain tells us we're hungry or we have specific cravings it's because our body is in need of fuel/nutrients, and when we're thirsty it's because we need water, and I feel this logic applies to sex as well. That when I guy has the urge to have sex, it's because are species needs this to survive. In the past, guys with higher sex drives would be more likely to have sex and impregnate women, and those high-sex drive genes would be passed on to the next generation. Where "unnatural" starts in my eyes is at watching porn, and masturbating.
     
  19. I think there is a lot of truth in this. And there are additional things at play that we easily forgot in this day and age. For instance the enormous amount of effort it took to survive and raise children... and this has only recently changed, even though I am privileged: my grandparents saw starvation. It doesn't take much imagination to see that a single mother and her children would have had very slim changes of basic survival in almost any context or country before the 1950's or so. It really took the full effort of a father and mother as a team to have their children even survive, let alone give them the tools they needed having a chance at adulthood. Perhaps they had sex whenever they could but I doubt he was humping his pregnant wife for fun.

    Another aspect of this perspective is the rather extreme unnaturalness in which we in the west now live. Many of us have ridiculous amounts of comfort and leisure time... really only akin to the the upper class, the royalty of old. Technology has further removed us from the basic daily reality of all our forebears. Our basic human instincts for pleasure and relaxation -all fully natural needs for our species that allowed us to procreate and store up energy for eons- are now overindulged ...out of boredom rather than necessity... the natural cravings have way more control over us than they ever did in the past... our behaviours now probably more resemble that of decadent roman emperors more than any of our ancestors all the way back to the time of the neanderthals...

    All this is only to say that we are living in a time where we believe we can relax and have less discipline than the generations before us... whereas in reality we need more discipline... of a different kind... to not have our natural cravings lead us into addictions. There are of course people who do not have this problem... I just don't happen to be one of them.

    Anyway, sorry, just re-watched Gladiator and drank too much wine... time to take a piss and hit the sack... cheers brother.
     
  20. The Blue Ocean

    The Blue Ocean Fapstronaut

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    Wait, how would abstaining from masturbation actually lead to impact on their fertility? Just curious.
     

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