Abortion?

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Mar 18, 2018.

  1. I assume you meant making it "legal" does not infringe on ... others. It infringes on the life of the individual being killed.

    Individual:
    Human
    Unique life-long DNA
    Alive
     
  2. I think you're wrong there.

    For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. - Psalms 139:13

    If verses like that weren't in the Bible it's likely we wouldn't be having this debate.
     
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  3. Fazetension

    Fazetension Fapstronaut

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    Again, you have assumed I am religious and then argued against it. In my first post I clearly gave an argument for my position without siting any religious reason, ironically your that one that did that.
    I would encourage you to read the argument I made and attempt to critique it before setting up a strawman.
     
    Castielle likes this.
  4. I didn't assume you are religious.

    Well I am religious myself.

    Would be having this debate if there were no religions in this world? How much are unconsciously influenced by religion?
     
  5. Fazetension

    Fazetension Fapstronaut

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    Yes of we would still be having this debate. The government should not make murder legal. Plain and simple. Nothing religious about it. Just facts. Also if you are resorting to argue by unconscious bias and influences, it shows that your argument is extremely weak.
    If you are a religious person you must be able to justify your stance, not just blindly say “because of religion”
     
  6. Yourfriend096

    Yourfriend096 Fapstronaut

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    Im neither religious or conservative but consider myself to be mostly pro-life.
     
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  7. @AverageBear (and anyone else voting tomorrow) PRI's The World had a story regarding the abortion referendum that might be of interest to you. You listen to it here and The Eighth podcast here. Hopefully, you'll be able to hear it before you vote.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2018
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  8. So @AverageBear you happy with the result? I'm not all that surprised really considering that Ireland legalised gay marriage a few years ago.
     
  9. Yeah I think so. It' an improvement on the previous situation. In theory abortions were legal in the event of the mother's life being in danger, but in practice doctors found that a very difficult thing to prove in the moment. As to what the correct law is, that's next. But this is an improvement.
     
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  10. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Wow, first Ireland and then Argentina. The logic of self-centered self-entitled middle-class mediocrity has taken over the world. God has us as the world goes mad.
     
  11. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    I don't think pro-life really has arguments so much as instincts. It's instinctively, intuitively, viscerally felt that life is in some way sacred, and that abortion is an act of violence against it. Of course, it will resort to arguments as a defense when the world is sadly coming to be run by rationalism and ideology today.

    We are so much more than our arguments... which tend to be reductive and impoverishing. Bracket your mindset of rights for a moment, and consider that the scale of abortion today is on that of wholesale slaughter.
     
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  12. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Is this emotive language? Yes! Because we should, in our humanity, be horrified by it.
     
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  13. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    People are becoming hard and callous today... look at the recent policy of ripping children away from their parents at the border. A policy completely stripped of compassion.
     
  14. Interesting that you chose to completely ignore the questions raised in the post you quoted.
     
  15. EXPONENTIALLY

    EXPONENTIALLY Fapstronaut

    Murdering a child ?

    I even heard that body parts of foetuses were SOLD. So necro-human trafficking also ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  16. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Because I doubt it is a perfectly rational issue to be discussed clinically at a debating table. It is one of those core crucial ultimate issues that we feel viscerally one way or the other. Personally, I'd suggest that taking a cold calculating approach to such a sensitive topic reflect an ideological frame of mind... that is, rationalism.

    In reality, I think Will precedes calculative reason. We have our core beliefs, then trundle out our reasons in support of them. This does not make me a rationalist, nor, I think, does it make me an irrationalist. It's simply having a coherent worldview or outlook on life.

    And for me the will to life comes first. I feel there is something sacred about it... that I am part of something bigger than my own egotistical self as represented purely by self-conscious reason.

    And I think that as a culture we are at the crossroads... between the will to life, on the one hand, and the will to death on the other... Eros and Thanatos as Freud would have put it.
     
  17. DarkwingDuck

    DarkwingDuck Fapstronaut

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    Speaking only biologically. First, it is known that upon conception, the human life has an independent set of DNA. I say human because again the DNA notes this. Second, without any further prompting, this human life begins developing. Just as a born human does not develop adult teeth until needed, or adult hormones as examples, the human life does not develop other organs until it needs them. At early stages, it receives nutrients in a different manner than after birth, but that is true of a born human. Initially, a born human can only process nutrients in limited ways (liquids), and later the digestive system can process more solid foods.

    Also, there is not another unique, deliberate act that the mother must perform once conception has happened. Everything else is triggered by the baby or by automated processes, and things such as providing nutrients is the same as if the mother is without child. Even birth is not decided deliberately by the mother (except in cases of medical intervention. As normal, it’s automatic.)
     
  18. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    Maybe I misunderstood some of the arguments here, but I think people who are pro-life should specify that they are pro-human life (unless they don't eat meat and plants). I know that in our society it seems self-evident that a human life is worth more than a plant's or animal's life but to me it sounds a bit misleading to simply argue that a fertilized egg cell falls under the biological definition of "life" and destroying a "life" is morally wrong, then so is eating salad and meat. If the complexity of life (ability to sense fear and pain, ability to feel joy and sadness, self-awareness, desire to live etc) is what makes one species of life more valuable than the other, it should be considered how complex a fertilized egg cell/embryo in it's very early stages really is, compared to a fish, for example. Now the argument of potentiality is also debatable. If we say that the mere potential of a fertilized egg cell/embryo to become a human being is a morally relevant reason against "killing" it, then, like another post already mentioned, the same argument goes for human germ cells, who also have the potential to become human beings. That would make abortion and contraception both equally wrong. Like spermicide for example, or a copper IUD, which kills the sperm and also prevents implantation of a fertilized egg cell. Both the sperm and egg cells should individually be considered to be units of life in the same way as any other single or multicellular organism. So neither the union of two germ cells nor any developmental point after that should be defined as the beginning of new life. That being said as a more objective, philosophical view on the issue.

    My personal view is in line with the OP's. I believe that potential human life matters, but I think the question is, when does it start to matter. I personally think it matters when the biological (potential human) life starts to develop into an actual human life. Of course, determining that point is also up for debate. I believe that human life begins after the point of "gastrulation", which starts at the beginning of the third week of pregnancy, when the embryo is implanted into the uterus of the mother and the cells will start to give rise to the different types of body tissue.

    I also agree with another post (sorry, don't remember which one) that the government should rather take legal action when it comes to sex education and contraception. I dare to say that any woman who doesn't want to have a child and who is too lazy, ignorant or careless to use proper contraception to then only have an abortion, has no respect for human life to begin with. I think proper contraception would already drastically reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies. In rare cases such as rape, contraception malfunctions and the mother's life being at risk, I think the moral and personal consequences of choosing to have an abortion compared to not choosing to have an abortion should be carefully weighed against each other to then make a decision. I would also like to add that it's always easier to take a rational standpoint when an outside perspective, I'm sure things look different when one is actually forced into making such a decision themselves. But maybe that is obvious.

    Ultimately, I think that as Buzz LightYear mentions, making a decision based on something "feeling", maybe instinctively, wrong should be respected just as much as someone wanting to make a decision based on rational thought and science.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  19. STAR DUST

    STAR DUST Fapstronaut

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    I use to be Pro Choice until I had a child. Once you see what you are preventing, destroying, and murdering, I changes the way you see things. I am now Pri Life. Adoption over abortion!
     

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