Anti-NoFap Article

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by Deleted Account, Nov 14, 2018.

  1. What a great thread man. Such a refreshing thing to be able to discuss an important matter with people from different political views with maturity. I’ve really enjoyed reading all these posts on here, regardless of political views I really admire intelligence
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2018
  2. Good point
     
  3. Ridley

    Ridley Fapstronaut

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    A lot of really interesting points being brought up about the political / ideological views behind NoFap. As for the question of whether or not there is something that makes right-wing people more comfortable here, I don't think that's the case.

    I think the thing that brought us all to this community was that we struggle with porn or masturbation (I'll just say porn from here forward for brevity, though I'm aware some users struggle with only masturbation and have never had problems with porn). Porn addiction is a problem that can affect you regardless of your political views. Our politics didn't point us towards this forum, our problems with porn did. For that reason, I'm not surprised that there are right-wing people here. But I'm equally un-surprised about the fact that there are left-wing people here. The fact that there are right-wing people in this community doesn't make me think that this is a right-wing community (the same can be said for any political, religious, or philosophical stance). It just makes me think that people of all sorts of backgrounds can struggle with porn.

    So no, I don't think there's anything about NoFap that specifically appeals to right-wing people. I think there's something about NoFap that specifically appeals to people who struggle with porn, regardless of what your political background is.
     
  4. OzymandiasI

    OzymandiasI Fapstronaut

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    Quite the contrary. Porn overuse I think makes men objectify women more and makes them more mysoginistic, it's also been shown to increase sexual aggression.
     
  5. Ok on to writing something about this article. I found it pretty bad, but eye opening at the same time.

    Yes, the science behind NoFap may be a bit questionable. Gary Wilson's TED talk was a horrible presentation.
    However, if phrased correctly, a lot of what has been said on this side makes sense. I have had severe ED problems, after a few weeks of abstinence from porn, including one week without masturbation, I get good erections again.

    The article does not give any credit to the pains that porn addicts go through. Real science has not done much for us either. All we get is ridicule. Maybe that is because the people who don't have a problem with porn don't know what we are doing - spending an uncontrollable amount of hours in front of the screen trying not to ejaculate so the joy lasts for longer.

    Citing a porn provider at the end was a very stupid choice from a journalistic point of view.

    On the other hand, the article brought to my attention what is wrong with this whole "community" of non-fappers. There is indeed a huge number of right wing, conservative Christians amongst us. They bring their religious fervour into the matter and blow the effects of porn and the benefits from abstinence out of proportion. They demonise masturbation and attribute all kinds of physical and mental harm to it. They pretend (against all real life experience) that there is scientific proof that sex is only healthy inside a monogamous relationship.

    It is ridiculous from a scientific point of view. I would laugh about it, if they would not press their harmful advice on vulnerable people all the time.

    this is really dangerous, some people might really suffer from listening to such bad advice. Religion is a tool of oppression that humanity has suffered for millennia. We should not fall back into the ethics of the 1950s. Society has moved on from back then, we should be vigilant that it does not fall back.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2018
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  6. kropo82

    kropo82 Fapstronaut

    I am surprised (and pleased) to read that. In my experience any mention of feminism here unleashes vitriol. Perhaps I'm being over sensitive. Ages ago I did a trawl through the forums to find as many mentions of feminism as I could. My plan was to write a huge post but I ran out of time (and knowledge!) and just ended up dumping them in a journal entry here. That was a mistake as several of the people I quoted were annoyed at having their words ripped out of context. But scanning through the quotes does give you some idea of what people think of feminism here, there are dissenting voices but the vast majority is negative (and I think mistaken).

    But let me just run that same quote again, and this time I'll emphasise the bit I missed out:
    I need to learn to be better at that. I can do it with some topics and some members but not all, some just get under my skin.

    I may be breaking our forum posting rules here by posting something religious, but I was recently watching this video by one of @Rio's favourite vloggers, God is Grey.



    (Be careful. This video is fine but some of the other subjects she covers in her other videos might be triggering.) In this video Brenda Marie Davies lays out a series of 5 + 1 tenants she hopes will help bridge the harmful divide between Republican and Democrat Christians. Here they are
    1. Recognise sameness (Mark 3:25, Luke 11:17, Matthew 12:25, Romans 2:11)
    2. Recognise the poison of 'us' versus 'them' (Ephesians 4:3)
    3. Reject disgust (Romans 12:16)
    4. People with the same goals can have different approaches (Isaiah 45:7)
    5. We've forgotten how to speak and we've forgotten how to listen (1 Peter 3:8, James 1:19)
    Plus the bonus one: Be fearless (John 14:27)

    Perhaps these are principles that would also work well between our differing political outlooks on NoFap, I'm certainly going to try them out.

    I agree with you here. Many in the liberal left have become seemingly obsessed with holding views that do no harm and they have forgotten the value of robust free speech. The range of people being no-platformed now is insane.

    I guess coming here involves two steps. One is realising that porn is wrong and the other is realising that you need to stop. For me those two steps were separated by decades of porn use. As a feminist I have always known porn was wrong but I ignored that and carried on hypocritically using it anyway. It wasn't until my wife told me that my porn use was destroying her self-esteem—and that she would have to leave if I chose not to stop—that I threw myself into trying to stop. I'm not sure what point I am trying to make here, just that there are two layers of morality at play: knowing it is wrong and acting on the implication of that. I can imagine that religion can help with both of those but might also hinder (hypocrisy is sadly rife in many churches).

    That sounds possible. There's also perhaps something quintessentially right wing about the more extreme versions of NoFap. I don't mean those of us who are doing this to rid our lives of porn, I mean the ones who are holding on to their semen for the super powers or spiritual control they believe it will build in them. I don't know how to put this into words but something about that feels fascist to me, there's an air of returning to some kind of noble state that feels wrong.

    Maybe it is this simple, but when you look around at organisations who do propose abstaining from masturbation forever are any left wing liberal organisations? I guess we know what we are, so there's no real reason that we should worry whether outsiders see us as part of some politically vile wider movement. But it does worry me.

    There's an interesting NPR This American Life episode about the relationship between the Proud Boys (one of the alt-right organisations mentioned in the original article) and giving up masturbation (they call it no-wanks) here: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/626/white-haze/act-one
    (Very oddly they allow themselves one session masturbating with porn per month.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  7. OzymandiasI

    OzymandiasI Fapstronaut

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    Let's not get into a religious debate here, it's counterproductive. What matters is we all have one thing in common: wanting to quit PMO.
     
  8. It's funny it seems to me more people on here are against feminism. I think maybe it's how we think, maybe we automatically think more people are against us no matter what we believe. If you look at the Israeli Palestinian conflict debate. Those on the Israeli side think the media is against them and for the Palestinians but those in favour of the Palestinians think the media is against them and for the Israelis. Lol!
     
  9. How is the science behind NoFap questionable?
    I don't think the fact that there are right-wing, conservative Christians on here is a problem. If religion helps some people in their recovery, then so what? It doesn't help me, but so what if it helps them? I can disagree with them if I want. I don't have to become religious like them.
     
  10. I also think the whole transmutation thing is a little weird, holding on to your semen at all costs in order to reap "benefits". I don't think it's a right-wing thing, and I DEFINITELY don't think it's a fascist thing though. From what I've read on it here, there are a lot of guys who will point to some ancient Eastern religious text to justify the transmutation thing. That's fine if they want to do that/believe in it, but some of them take it a little too far (like controlling your dreams so you don't have wet dreams)
     
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  11. The problem is that some people here try to push their values on others. They insist that everything that does not fit into their beliefs is making people ill. They give harmful advice and shame people. This is not healthy and sex positive as the forum should be.

    These people are mostly Christian. Christianity as a religion is oppressive and intolerant. People should not get those superstitions shoved into their faces. People can be Christian if that helps them, but they should not tell other people about it. Most of all, they should not assume that everybody needs to follow their value system.

    The science behind nofap has been questioned by serious scientists. Personally, I believe that still many of the ideas of nofap ring true in their essence, but are presented in a vastly exaggerated way and some people cling to these miraculous ideas in a religious fashion. I have read posts here that suggest that people should not seek professional help. Instead, they should listen to some self-appointed internet gurus. You can't tell me that this is healthy.
     
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  12. Well yeah I hate it too when Christians and other religious people try to push their values on others. But that can also be said about every other ideology, philosophy, value system out there, there's always people like that. I wouldn't just single out Christians
    As far as the NoFap science, I agree there are some superstitious beliefs that do abound on here about the "benefits" of giving up porn. Yeah usually those are simplistic overexaggerations. I don't know if I would say that that de-legitimizes the idea of porn addiction being a real thing though. If we here accept, through personal experience, that porn addiction is indeed a real thing, then if we try to recover from it, yes we should start to see some "benefits" as would happen with recovery from any other addiction. There could be a scientific basis for that. I'd also argue that the porn-addiction skeptics out there have some superstitious beliefs of their own that hold them back
     
  13. I just read the entire article and it disgusted me. I’m not alt-right (In fact I lean to the left), I’m not a misogynist, I’m not a racist. I’m just a guy who is trying to heal my severe addiction to porn and the dysfunctions it has caused me.

    Honestly I don’t know what’s worse....her attempts to smear us as anti-women extremists or her attempts to make porn seem safe and harmless. Porn addiction is REAL.
     
  14. ive seen Buddhists do the same thing on here
    A fapper will post a particular problem
    Then the Buddhist will give advice on how to deal with that problem via a Buddhist route, quoting Buddha or a spiritual teacher
    It’s pretty much the same as when a Christian does it
    Also mindfulness meditation is an eastern practice surely and that’s heavily suggested on here
    I also get annoyed when I see Christians dish out advice, or Buddhists etc, but I think it’s my problem not theirs, if we start policing it then that will get way out of control and the lines will get argued over endlessly
    I prefer to take the, oh well it’s a community, all walks of life as strange as I find it, mentality

    (edit) I also don’t like the 12 step approach to addiction, which I see as religious, and I’m always seeing people give out advice from that perspective
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2018
  15. DucksInARow

    DucksInARow Fapstronaut

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    The common denominator in addiction is the realisation that your ego or self concept has created more problems than it can solve, so 'you' are powerless over the substance or behaviour.

    This does not necessarily need to be a religious or spiritual realisation, it finds expression in psychoanalysis and most secular modalities of the psychological sciences.

    Religions then come in and state specific ways to achieve a life beyond ego, and also describe what is in control if 'we' aren't (God).

    As long as you remember that at their core religions and sciences are actually all on the same page with healing from addiction, you won't get caught in the negative realms of dogmatism or evangelism, but also not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
     
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  16. Yeah, another good take on things Manchild. I agree about the 12 steps thing too, I'm not a fan of that
     
  17. This is what I mean, I don’t believe in the concept of powerless, and there are theories around addiction that also don’t do the powerless thing, and actually believe it’s harmful, like lance dodes and Stanton Peele
     
  18. Not every facility utilises spirituality, have a read of Lance dodes and Stanton Peele, and I myself only made progress when I stopped believing in the powerless thing and started empowering myself and taking control of my life responsibly
    Again that’s just my view and others, and like I’ve said before I really enjoy how different we all are
    It’s a community
    It’s not right or left wing
    It’s not religious or religious
    It’s not 12 step or 12 step
     
  19. DucksInARow

    DucksInARow Fapstronaut

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    Powerless doesn't mean you sit in bed all day moping. It means the false addictive self (which has taken over) is powerless to escape from the pain it is running from, and powerless to gain lasting fulfilment in sex, drugs, relationships, food etc.

    Now the addictive self is a sneaky bugger, it 'borrows' our own voice and thoughts for its own purposes. In many respects 'it' becomes 'me'. Ask any addict.

    This is the sense in which I mean powerless. The you that is beyond thoughts and urges, that is anything but powerless.
     
  20. Yup, that’s the theory I don’t agree with, I totally understand what you mean though, I’ve done NA, AA before
    Have a read of those guys I suggested if you like
    There are other theories
    My point was everyone has their own view on NoFap
     
  21. DucksInARow

    DucksInARow Fapstronaut

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    I can see how the 12 steps language might trigger peoples emotions in a negative way, but I believe that if the language were modernised and slightly recontextualised, almost everyone could benefit from it. Just my opinion.
     
  22. farmerjones

    farmerjones Fapstronaut

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    A horrible presentation? Anyhow, here are 2 very extensive pages providing empirical support for each slide of The Great Porn Experiment. As YBOP notes, the Wilson TEDx talk was put together in 2011 - and whole lot of supporting research as since been published.
    As for the "science" behind porn's effects, it is far from questionable. See this page - https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-about-the-studies/
    Take from the about page:
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    What is the current state of the research on Internet porn addiction and porn's effects?
    (See Questionable & Misleading Studies for highly publicized papers that are not what they claim to be.)
    1. An official diagnosis? The world's most widely used medical diagnostic manual, The International Classification of Diseases (ICD-11), contains a new diagnosis suitable for porn addiction: "Compulsive Sexual Behavior Disorder." (2018)
    2. Porn/sex addiction? This page lists 40 neuroscience-based studies (MRI, fMRI, EEG, neuropsychological, hormonal). They provide strong support for the addiction model as their findings mirror the neurological findings reported in substance addiction studies.
    3. The real experts' opinions on porn/sex addiction? This list contains 20 recent literature reviews & commentaries by some of the top neuroscientists in the world. All support the addiction model.
    4. Signs of addiction and escalation to more extreme material? Over 30 studies reporting findings consistent with escalation of porn use (tolerance), habituation to porn, and even withdrawal symptoms (all signs and symptoms associated with addiction).
    5. Debunking the unsupported talking point that "high sexual desire" explains away porn or sex addiction: At least 25 studies falsify the claim that sex & porn addicts "just have high sexual desire"
    6. Porn and sexual problems? This list contains 27 studies linking porn use/porn addiction to sexual problems and lower arousal to sexual stimuli. The first 5 studies in the list demonstrate causation, as participants eliminated porn use and healed chronic sexual dysfunctions.
    7. Porn’s effects on relationships? Almost 60 studies link porn use to less sexual and relationship satisfaction. (As far as we know all studies involving males have reported more porn use linked to poorer sexual or relationship satisfaction.)
    8. Porn use affecting emotional and mental health? Over 55 studies link porn use to poorer mental-emotional health & poorer cognitive outcomes.
    9. Porn use affecting beliefs, attitudes and behaviors? Check out individual studies - over 25 studies link porn use to "un-egalitarian attitudes" toward women and sexist views – or the summary from this 2016 meta-analysis: Media and Sexualization: State of Empirical Research, 1995–2015. Excerpt:
    The goal of this review was to synthesize empirical investigations testing effects of media sexualization. The focus was on research published in peer-reviewed, English-language journals between 1995 and 2015. A total of 109 publications that contained 135 studies were reviewed. The findings provided consistent evidence that both laboratory exposure and regular, everyday exposure to this content are directly associated with a range of consequences, including higher levels of body dissatisfaction, greater self-objectification, greater support of sexist beliefs and of adversarial sexual beliefs, and greater tolerance of sexual violence toward women. Moreover, experimental exposure to this content leads both women and men to have a diminished view of women’s competence, morality, and humanity.
    22 studies from 7 different countries were analyzed. Consumption was associated with sexual aggression in the United States and internationally, among males and females, and in cross-sectional and longitudinal studies. Associations were stronger for verbal than physical sexual aggression, although both were significant. The general pattern of results suggested that violent content may be an exacerbating factor.​
    Increased access to the Internet by adolescents has created unprecedented opportunities for sexual education, learning, and growth. Conversely, the risk of harm that is evident in the literature has led researchers to investigate adolescent exposure to online pornography in an effort to elucidate these relationships. Collectively, these studies suggest that youth who consume pornography may develop unrealistic sexual values and beliefs. Among the findings, higher levels of permissive sexual attitudes, sexual preoccupation, and earlier sexual experimentation have been correlated with more frequent consumption of pornography.... Nevertheless, consistent findings have emerged linking adolescent use of pornography that depicts violence with increased degrees of sexually aggressive behavior. The literature does indicate some correlation between adolescents’ use of pornography and self-concept. Girls report feeling physically inferior to the women they view in pornographic material, while boys fear they may not be as virile or able to perform as the men in these media. Adolescents also report that their use of pornography decreased as their self-confidence and social development increase. Additionally, research suggests that adolescents who use pornography, especially that found on the Internet, have lower degrees of social integration, increases in conduct problems, higher levels of delinquent behavior, higher incidence of depressive symptoms, and decreased emotional bonding with caregivers.

    Aren’t all studies correlative? Nope: Over 65 studies demonstrate internet use & porn use causing negative outcomes & symptoms, and brain changes.

    For a debunking of nearly every naysayer talking point and cherry-picked study see this extensive critique: Debunking "Why Are We Still So Worried About Watching Porn?", by Marty Klein, Taylor Kohut, and Nicole Prause (2018). How to recognize biased articles: They cite Prause et al., 2015 (falsely claiming it debunks porn addiction), while omitting over 3 dozen neurological studies supporting porn addiction.
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