AP Group Echo

Discussion in 'Accountability Partners' started by lantti, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. lantti

    lantti Fapstronaut

    Day 10
    I feel like a saint. I feel free. I feel happy. I found the part of me that never gives up and is good and I raised it up.

    I have felt shame as well, but I got over it. I should not feel shame if I did nothing wrong. I will try adjust my reason and feelings so they correlate with real world.

    I glad that you feel good:)
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  2. Enderswish604

    Enderswish604 Fapstronaut

    @lantti Thanks! And it is likewise great to hear you seeing things so clearly and differently now! :)

    Update :

    I have been in one of the worst cycles of falling just as I begin to feel my free-est. I start to feel numb, and then I seek relief through relapse. "Relief", pffft, but that is still how my addicted mind sees it.
    It happened again just now, but, I had no urge to view P at all. I searched instead for a kpop group called KARA, of whose fandom I used to be an active member two years ago. It was good to see that they are all still leading successful happy lives now (the band dissolved at the start of 2016).
    One member made a comeback Music Video with a "bold, sexy" image. Being in the state that I was (ready to relapse), I decided to give it a watch, knowing I was already mentally ready to fall.
    But to my surprise, the video was done with a degree of class. She did not do anything degrading, but even on the "sexy" scenes, I chose to avert my eyes.
    I have a lot of respect for all the members of that girl group, and it is in large part because no matter what, things never get out of hand in their content.
    Still wanting to relapse, I tried to search for other non-explicit psubs, popular kpop trending videos, general international trending music, the unfiltered youtube homepage in incognito, but no matter what content came in front of my eyes, if it was something nasty I'd avert my eyes, I then went back to the youtube app, did a back and forth if I actually wanted to relapse anyway. I decided to listen to some songs, some from subscribers, other generic love songs.
    Finally I just searched for this one song from pop singer Inna, called summer in december, it is a sort of ballad. And to my surprise the music video was absolutely beautiful and nothing dirty at all.
    With that it dawned on me. I am Blessed to be free. I no longer desire the filth, the addicted part of me no longer has power over me, the disease is leaving for good, God Willing.
    I am grateful to God, that despite all my "efforts" to relapse. He Kept me safe. I am truly grateful to Him for that. I must NEVER risk my sobriety ever again as I did tonight.
    Especially not with this epiphany of freedom from filth. I want LOVE in my life, not lust, not "release", not some chemical BS. I don't want to feel or be high or numb, I want to feel complete. I want to belong. I want for this peace to remain in me for my life, and for the hereafter. The peace of knowing that God's Love is Enough, and its Enveloping Beauty clears the mind of all ill and all filth.

    2nd Update :

    Got cocky and did something stupid, searched out of curiosity (as the addict fooled me) for s** toys, ofcourse they showed up. Next thing I am on a P site and PMO'd. *sigh*
    Still this was a completely dumb and idiotic way to waste my freedom, I am certain I can become truly abstinent. I find motivation through my earlier epiphany of what I truly want. I will, God Willing, try harder and smarter again. New streak from 4/9/18 00:00, just so that the binge monster does not ruin my morale before I even get going.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
  3. lantti

    lantti Fapstronaut

    Hey man, you're going to have the chaser effect and stuff, and you're going to have hard time now. New chance will come out soon so take heart from that. But in the meanwhile, you should prepare.

    First you must realize something
    I know you don't think it's rational to relapse. You say it here
    But you feel like you want to relapse. You feel like that. You want that. So we have a problem here. Even if you manage to find out iron will to fight 90 days straight this addiction, you will be eternally tied to it, if you still want it and cannot stop wanting or giving the thing time.

    Now, human brain is divided into two places, called Reason and Self. Your reason, which is You, knows this is fucking bullshit and you for that reason try to quit it. However, I think you don't properly understand your selfs mechanisms. You cannot order your self to feel differently. Those feelings you have are there and will remain there as long as they are used. But the thing here is, that your self is like a parliament, it consist of not only pmo-feelings, but it consist of many other feelings. You have to find those feelings, that might help you to "overthrow" pmo feelings and use your reason to fuel those other feelings. You can just ignore pmo-feelings, you don't need it after you have "the majority" in your favor. PMO is just a tool to silence all other feels. So try the next

    1. Go sit or lie in bed, relax
    2. Just listen your feelings, be they whatever they may be
    3. try putting them into words
    4. Answer to them, argue them (with reason)
    5. Let them argue back
    6. And so you talk with yourself, which is important.
    7. Remember to correct your feelings every time they don't feel appropriate, and your self will adjust.
    8. Also let your self have time to feel those feelings, it helps your self to steam them out.

    Your self should be on your side on this. I've had enormously strong urges and yet I've not even wavered, because myself is doing the fighting for me. Everytime I think of pmo, or related stuff, I summon the self and say to it "banish this evil" and it does so, because those feels know that I'm taking care of them. And after a while, those feels grow and pmo weakens.

    You're sitting in front of your computer
    , I have the same problem though;) Try going for walks first few days and eat well. or whatever.

    Good luck for the next streak, it will be longer:rolleyes:
    Enderswish604 likes this.
  4. jest

    jest Fapstronaut

    Alright guys, I've been away and not very supportive unfortunately but business is blooming and pmo is far away!

    I'm going to share my idea with you and then when possible I'll come back here and improve on it.

    The idea is that when you think of something, it might provoke a feeling but if you see it and hear it's a much bigger "shock". So if you keep thinking about quitting PMO, that's one thing, but if you could somehow speed up the process by also seeing and listening to ways to eradicate PMO/ give you the necessary willpower then that's something else.

    So my challenge to you guys would be, pick 30 youtube videos that are nofap related or motivational. You're going to be watching a short video every single day for a month (you only need 27 days to create new brain patterns I believe, but we'll do 30 for now), you have to watch this video ideally immediately after waking up when you're still sleepy. At night you could do it too but looking at a screen might mess up your sleeping patterns, only watch videos at night if that's all you'll do, get a red screen filter (such as Twilight for android or F.lux for pc) and then as soon as the video is over go to sleep (this isn't recommended, it's only in case you fail to watch one in the morning or would like to double the effects).

    I know that watching a video as soon as you're up isn't that great since you'll be exposed to your phone or computer right away but for the sake of this experiment it's necessary.

    If you repeat a video that's fine, it could actually be the same video for 30 days as long as it provokes a positive, lasting reaction; but we're going with different ones so you can feed your brain lots of different information.

    If you have to wake up earlier - do it. It's better if the video is at least 7 minutes long (again because of how our brain perceives relevant information) but it's probably fine if it's a short one as long as you're still in a sleepyish state.

    I'll be posting a list here with both videos that I've already seen and haven't seen, but you're free to research and make your own list meanwhile. Don't wait for me.

    Let's try this out and see what kind of results we get. We'll be attempting to speed up the rewiring process, so it's important that we stick to the plan and do not slack, that's why a video list is mandatory. We could probably do this with nofap articles but I think the process would be relatively slower.

    Enderswish604 likes this.
  5. lantti

    lantti Fapstronaut

    Okay, I had biggest urges and lies today. I'll read and answer to you jest later when I've talked about this.

    For few days now, I've had really hard erections and been horny and stuff. But I myself have been going through them with ease. Today though, It kept saying that meeting and talking with women, that wouldn't hurt now would it? It sounded reasonable. I opened the dating app. I started talking there. When it seemed clear that I would not get what I want, I got angry. And then:

    I took a time-out. I got through my feelings. And I found out, that the anger was totally unreasonable. It was a gateway to let my feelings get control of rational mind. It was, this pmo-mind. It was agenda of pmo-feels right there. And the moment I realized that it got naked and it lost its power.

    I thanked the women for talking with me, destroyed my account once and for all, removed the app and got out unharmed. And in some respect, that excuse is used up and pmo has lost a little bit more power from me. Which is actually quite a lot, it can control my imagination, it can control many things, if it would be sentient it would have taken over my mind alreadyo_O

    Personally I do that with articles, I prefer them to the videos. No, not a first thing in a morning but when I'm interested.

    And jest, I'd say we'd need constant supply of material here. But we can do that by posting here whenever we are able videos.
    Like this one
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  6. Enderswish604

    Enderswish604 Fapstronaut

    Day 0

    So my binging kept going even past midnight. I knew I wasn't enjoying it. But I kept doing it. It felt so stupid, what felt worse was the realisation that a part of why I relapse is because I almost always try to shut out ALL media in the first week. So my mind has no food for thought, no relaxation or escape from the daily stressors, and because pmo is a deeply rooted problem, my mind turns to it, so that I could give it some "normal" entertainment afterwards. I go that way in the first week, because of fear that the slightest suggestive content would trigger me. But it always just instead builds up inside with no outlet instead. I'm gonna try to put in more art and entertainment (clean, motivating ones) in my routine too. Gonna get the funimation anime streaming app to work on my phone, since that'll give a clean, safe (and hence relaxing) avenue to unwind without worrying about nasty fanart or the like jumping out at me.
    I have also done the "Last Visit" thing from the hackbook EasyPeasy. So I *know* that consciously, I am free from PMO. I am a non-PMOer because I have no conscious desire for PMO, and no delusion either. For the subconscious, I need to remain steadfast and further grow myself up and out of addiction trap.

    Those are some really great pointers. This talking to the self is what I need. And honestly I did that to a minor extent in this last attempt. ALL days were difficult but I made it through almost a whole week without flinching, only time I properly failed was when I made a completely foolish move, driven by pmo-addict feelings.
    Alright! I'll get my parliament on my side too! God Willing, we'll make it through yet!
    Personally I actually really just like a motivational quote on an image (like a meme?), I find it more motivating than longer content because I find myself dragging my feet while trying to make it to the end.
    Also it having no audio means I can view it discreetly without needing earphones or privacy.
    Anyway, I do not think viewing a video first thing in the morning is gonna be healthy. But I do agree that it'll be worth a shot to overwrite the brainwashing.
    I don't know where to start though. I guess I'll make a running playlist, containing 5-6 new videos at any given time would do the trick.
    Guys it really does help a lot to have this group to bounce off thoughts and support from. Let's make it count! :)
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    lantti and jest like this.
  7. lantti

    lantti Fapstronaut

    Day 12 in my journey, and whats happening:

    I've been thinking that I need to fix the sleeping cycle. I did that, I went for walks and ate well in the first week, but then it jammed and I replaced PMO with youtube and general forum lurking. After that I've been assailed by many urges, had meetings with my friends/parents and stuff, so it kind of stayed that way for a while. I usually watch tv when around there.

    But now I started thinking about this. I seemed a bit tired all the time and I got up with an idea that it was because the rhythm is off balance. I also thought that I've been using too much computer all day doing nothing. I usually listen to music all day when I have free time, and watch videos: both are useless in their own right. So, I will aim that I will listen to music now only in a bus, where it's useful. I will also stop watching videos, it's waste of time, the site is full of triggers and more than that it really drains my energy to do anything else at all. I can watch 24h videos. In that time, I could have slept, exercised, eaten, clean my room, start study stuff etc.

    I'm already a bit drained by opening this site, to be honest. It's the damn computer. I'll come back tomorrow.
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  8. Enderswish604

    Enderswish604 Fapstronaut

    Day {I'm not keeping count anymore}
    I feel good by God's Grace. Been utilising the parliament concept put forth by @lantti and it is working well. Sometimes I feel too tired to do that but then I just let everything slide cuz of tiredness. I still make it a point to isolate that pmo addict, to make sure he doesn't feel welcome at all. God Willing, nothing can stop me now from escaping the PMO trap for good.
    Healthwise I had a terrible two days with fever and headache, but by His Grace it is all clearing up now so all good.
    lantti likes this.
  9. lantti

    lantti Fapstronaut

    Keep using that, I think communicating with feelings is the way to freedom, it's working for me like a charm.

    Day 17

    I've have had 4 day flatline and just yesterday night it fade away. I was unable to do anything, I did want to though, but flatline was crushing. Those four days were longest in my life. I pray I never have to do such a thing again, but who knows? future might hold more flatlines

    it was a emotional flatline, so it was especially hard.

    This was actually what I was feeling, prepare enderwish, stockpile some food, get some book to read, and try talk with yourself from time to time. Next ten days will be hard!

    But it will be over, I'm over with that, future might bring another though.
    Enderswish604 likes this.
  10. lantti

    lantti Fapstronaut

    Relapse. I think it started when the flatline ended. I started feel good but somehow I started feel these small extraordinary urges. and today, I jerked off. Got to the Day 18 at least.

    I'm pretty sure I lied somehow to myself. Relapses cannot occur without that. I wonder what was the lie about. Somehow I remember it's about sex being some magic tool to repair everything. So I draw the fool card


    Even the most unbelievable lies seem attractive when under the pressure.
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  11. Enderswish604

    Enderswish604 Fapstronaut

    As long as you learn, you can get back up with positivity.
    I too drew a Fool today, for those who don't know, when I am on recovery, I have this disturbing "escape" in leering for prostitutes, it has been a-ok and under control, until tonight. I stopped at this crossing where I go to a barber's shop. I get out of my car, wall towards it, it's closed so I walk back to my car, sit down inside (at this point I noticed that I'd left the headlights on by mistake). Habitually I look around just to see if it's clear in all sides to move the car. I saw someone who "looked" and acted like a woman of the trade. She was looking at me, first unsure and uncaring of which I simply went about my business and started the car. But then I look back (listening to the PMO addict of all the voices) and she's moved back but is still looking straight at me, which I'm sure of by now.
    I went back and forth about it, but then decided to follow through on it stupidly, so I take a detour, made a whole trip around that crossing (it was fast moving traffic so reversing and going to her would've been dangerous, not that I didn't try>_> ), thinking in my head, that it's "fine" that simply talking without following through wouldn't hurt, that by saying "no to her face" will strengthen my resolve to stay clean. Now as I finally reach the crossing again I take the turn towards where she was - only she's gone. Nowhere to be found at all, and it is a bustling well-lit area too. So now I wonder, who or what was that? :confused:
    But even that wasn't enough, I let my PMO addict emotion blind me and I took a few more off-route turns, just in "hopes" of finding someone. As it was getting even worse, I started to vocally speak to my different "selves" asking them what all of them thought of all this, and then vocally replying from each, including PMO Addict. He was the only one who wanted it, everyone else agreed on it being stupid, cruel and pointless. I got them all on my side, and got the addict tied down. Finally made it home.
    PMO addict is still trying to feed my mind little seeds of lust - apparently innocent thoughts that when obsessed over would turn perverse and lead to PMO. But he's outnumbered and outgunned now.
    I'm gonna stay strong.
    Despite just resetting. You should do the same @lantti , your method and approach is sound. All you need is to apply it consistently.
    jest likes this.
  12. jest

    jest Fapstronaut

    As I'm still managing to keep busy urges have been minimal but I've recently gotten out of the flatline and therefore I'm back into occasionally researching and learning ways to defeat PMO and also to reach success, so today I want to share this short video with you, it's mostly about the short book .pdf he links, so have a watch and then a read:

    Perhaps you guys are still very uncertain as what you want to do to reach a higher level in life and therefore you fall back into the common PMO trap?

    I'm also uncertain myself but the more I abstain the clearer things get.

    Edit: massive urges today but I'm bulletproof, I will succeed. Hope you guys are doing well.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
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  13. jest

    jest Fapstronaut

    I fell back into the karezza trap and tantric breathing to try and relieve the pressure and therefore I'll reset the counter back to zero, I wasn't exactly touching anything but it was a little worse than the results of a nocturnal emission.

    Goodbye streak. I was highly productive, made a ton of money, got to love myself more in these past 24 days.

    I'm also on a no videogames streak, 19 days so far.

    Although I still spend time watching pointless videos on youtube.

    I've a suggestion guys, we should maybe create a live chat group somewhere so we can get immediate help if we're having urges, the thread is helpful but I find it hard to get on here at times and it might take a while for others to reply.

    Whatsapp? Discord? What say you?

    I'd prefer discord as I've no phone number as of right now.
    Enderswish604 likes this.
  14. Enderswish604

    Enderswish604 Fapstronaut

    You need to realise this my friend : There is NO PRESSURE, it is all a mind game, it is you, all your mental allies (the emotions upon whose support you can depend on if you listen to them) and the lone PMO addict in there.
    When we think about the "pressure" of recovery, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy out of the fear of failure it fills us with. That is what needs to be removed; removing triggers helps, don't get me wrong. But removing the internal cause of the triggers will go a looooooong way in proper sobriety.
    As for the group, I am open to both, though I've never used discord before, and I have a bad situation of relapsing to basically any new social app I try on recovery, since if you look hard enough, you'd hit P or psubs on all of them. So preference for me would be whatsapp, but I'm ok with discord too I guess.
  15. jest

    jest Fapstronaut

    You're more than correct my friend, that makes an awful lot of sense. I've been doing a lot of thinking and whenever I tell myself I'm quitting MO for good I feel that I don't believe my own words.

    I don't watch P and I don't fantasize (although thoughts occasionally creep in, but not quite as extreme as it used to be and my brain eventually shuts them out) and I can't seem to really understand what I did in order to quit so "easily". I used to engage in pmo daily and suddenly it's only about MO, I never see myself going back to P, it's been way too long I've lost track.

    When I think about going back to P I truly believe I'll never watch it again. It's crazy how PMO is kind of like a multi layered addiction. I can even quit videogames which is something that stuck with me my whole life, so why not MO?

    I just can't find what the internal cause is, I can ask myself but there's no concrete answer, perhaps I can't quite see it.

    Do you know yours?
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  16. Enderswish604

    Enderswish604 Fapstronaut

    I don't like my life. That is plain and simple my answer, the reasons are quite multifaceted.
    But it boils down to my want of being better.
    For the longest time PMO, was my drunk escape; a way to let go of everything and not worry about the consequences.
    Honestly I thought for me, videogames were that escape. But in truth it was this dark secret that tarnished so much of my being in the light that was my closest friend.
    This evil inside me writhes at the thought of change. I created it, fed it, nurtured it, pampered and spoiled it. Now it's all grown up and big enough to swallow me whole given the chance.
    This is my monster. That I have yet to figure out how to slay, I've went for the neck, the jugular, the heart, the head. And I have failed everytime.
    .....I relapsed and binged a lot today, total tally stands at 5 for today, 5 in one friggin' day. I know that because I'm keeping count in a team challenge. Halfway there to being disqualified....woohoo.....
    But I digress.....
    To answer you @jest
    It is good that you are unhooked from P, but the addiction that was there has actually reduced but still grabs hold of you in the dopamine rush of orgasm. Right now, I believe you are addicted to orgasms and the neurochemical hotchpotch it leaves one's mind in.
    It is no different than unhooking yourself from P, you just have to realise that it is better to suffer through the finite recovery period than be addicted to your own hand for life.

    Day 0
    Keeping count again, cuz zero is always easy to remember. I first relapsed in the afternoon, after having successfully talked myself out of it in the morning, I had a good breakfast with family. Then worked on recovering the OS on my laptop, I had to study for a voluntary test I signed up for, but...I never got to it, instead I wasted time after installig the OS, then I camcame upstairs and looked up nsfw content on youtube, followed by MO, followed by sleep, followed by PMO in all its forms, followed by a sort of good riddance to PMO, reset my counters, then took a shower, prayed a little, went to my lecture (missed the test I didn't study for)
    Came back home. Binged again.
    And...here I am. *sigh* bloody hell.
    I know I can do this. That's the funny thing, I know exactly where I lost this fight, it was when i decided not to study, today, it wasn't even something growing days on end. It was this whim to not abide by what is good for me. And so, I wound up doing what was arguably the worst for me. All the delusions of enjoyment, escape, freedom, and carefree floatiness...that's all they are. I am numb, depressed, drained, demotivated, ill cuz I passed out half naked with the fan on (that's how you unlock the Influenza achievement), socially anxious, with dead watery eyes. And my voice is thinner, shakier and shriller all because of the hell that this habit brings....
    God Almighty Help us all. We Seek refuge from our own sins...
  17. jest

    jest Fapstronaut

    @Enderswish604 I like life in general, life is great but mine in particular isn't that special either. I still enjoy it in fact I'm learning to enjoy it without the need for external events to bring me happiness, I only wish I could go back to my child self - my care free self, let the adults worry about money, addictions and all that; I really wish I could be pure and innocent again. I blame today's society for this, growing with all sorts of sexual imagery around us eh no wonder we're addicted, even those that aren't addicted are still ruled by it, it's there lurking, holding us all back especially those that are unaware.
    It's funny how we hold ourselves back from greatness in order to get short term pleasure that isn't even that pleasurable! This whole self sabotage is just stupid, we as humans, should be able to make conscious decisions and stick to them.

    It's so non-sensical, when we know that this is bad for us yet we keep engaging in the exact same thing time and time again.
    Regardless, I'm convinced that sooner or later we will succeed as long as we keep trying, every urge is a chance to learn and every relapse is a chance to re-evaluate our journey.
    If we could get busy (or busier) lives perhaps this would be much easier, I guess the more activities we throw in the less time we'll have to think about PMO unfortunately for me I'm not in the best position to find things to do, nor do I want to, perhaps because I'm too stubborn to realize that by getting out of my comfort zone things will start to look up or perhaps I'm too scared to take the next step.

    Anyway I tried setting up a discord server.
    Can you guys join this?


    The link is valid only for a day apparently so I'll have to come back here and keep posting a new one until you both manage to join.

    Stay strong guys.
    Enderswish604 likes this.
  18. Enderswish604

    Enderswish604 Fapstronaut

    Day 0 again, well day 1 now.

    Relapsed to psubs and audio P off youtube, I had a weird two days.
    It all started on Wednesday, actually I think even before that, maybe last Saturday?
    Well this time things were building up, I could feel them building up, and I was just so sick of myself that I let things stay and keep going in that direction. I thought I had gained somewhat of a sense of control, but on Wednesday. I had this weirdest experience, where I went to the older part of city to buy some stuff (I could get it around my neighbourhood too, but it's cheaper on that side). Well I got lost :p then as I was retreading my steps, I was also getting anxious and peering out on the sidewalks for basically hookers, and I found this woman, dressed like she were going to a wedding, but she kept making eye contact with me as I was driving around the block, I could see she was talking to someone on the phone too. But letting my impulses get the better of me, I stopped and asked her if she needed a lift (inside I was fighting hard to not fall into old trappings), she first played along, and then I asked her to sit in the back and I'd drop her wherever she needed to go. Some chatter on the way, she tried to get in some flirty lines, and I had to fight super hard to not reply in kind, but long story short, I picked up a hooker, then dropped her off where she wanted to go, and nothing more happened at ALL. o_O
    She was quite beautiful, but I successfully managed to walk out of the ditch I tried to fall in, finally on my way home I took all the routes that I knew would have "action" but to my surprise, God made my journey empty and peaceful.
    After getting home ofcourse, I felt riled up by everything, I probably should've taken a cold shower, but I had the same flu and a bad migraine because of it (probably why I was able to suppress the lust somewhat too, cuz the pain was a good distraction).
    I watched some youtube music videos and the like and then went to bed. Yesterday and today are fasting days.
    But they're also holidays.. Yesterday, I only watched inappropriate content off youtube (pop music videos and other mostly normal but for me, potential psub stuff), today I went further, and fell down the rabvit hole of the audios on there. Eventually leading to me M'ing, but I stopped before letting myself lose it all.
    I'm still riled up, but I'm gonna take a shower, and get ready for the Friday congregation. It is still a fast for me, since I did not O. I've ruined the worship and abstinence obviously by not being completely modest, but I'm still hanging on, even if it is by the skin of my teeth. May God Have Mercy upon us all, May He Forgive and Guide us Closer to Him.
  19. Enderswish604

    Enderswish604 Fapstronaut

    Relapsed again.
    Day 0, I went full PMO (to psubs not actual P).
    Afterwards though I decided to watch youtube videos of fellow fapstronauts, and it reminded me what is missing; the drive, the desperation to change myself. That I had on my longest streak.
    I let myself fall into the same pits, I haven't utilised our group chat, and I have not stuck to my changed habit decisions.
    I spend too much time in my bed and I have become isolated from the world again in terms of who I am.
    I will learn, reflect and change. The first change is a ban on youtube "Trending" videos, alongwith any Sns (social network services), I am not droppinh them because of relapses. I am dropping them because I only go to them FOR relapses. Lowering my gaze is something, thankfully I have been doing, and by His Grace I intend to continue to do so.
    Anime, videogames, local soap operas, history articles and videos, and learning arabic and japanese....I'm not lacking in hobbies I invest into but then forget all about when the going gets tough. Not anymore, everytime I get an urge and have time, I will delve into one of the above. As for anime, I'm gonna stick to the good ol' long series to avoid any potential e-rog .
    I know I can change. I am thirsty for it, I want this freedom more than anything else. This is my path that I must win on.
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