Are you ready to give up your tastes in music?

You live in the US the same as myself. What music is popular in our culture today and would you say that music accurately reflects the spirituality of our culture? I think it does perfectly. His example of Gregorian Chant as being the highest form of music isn’t used because it’s “Western” but because it is a perfect example of music as being used to glorify God. He would say the same about Byzantine Chant or any other form of Chant that honors God according to His dignity. If a cultures chant doesn’t do this then how is it anything but degenerate?

Immodesty is immoral but what makes something or someone immodest deals with subject and circumstance. The reason why the artwork on the Sistine Chapel is not seen as immodest is because the manner in which the human body is shown is done in such a way that does not lead us to lust.

John Paul II stated: “In the course of the various eras, beginning from antiquity—and above all in the great period of Greek classical art—there are works of art whose subject is the human body in its nakedness. The contemplation of this makes it possible to concentrate, in a way, on the whole truth of man, on the dignity and the beauty—also the “suprasensual” beauty—of his masculinity and femininity. These works bear within them, almost hidden, an element of sublimation. This leads the viewer, through the body, to the whole personal mystery of man. In contact with these works, where we do not feel drawn by their content to “looking lustfully,” which the Sermon on the Mount speaks about, we learn in a way that nuptial meaning of the body which corresponds to, and is the measure of, “purity of heart.”

That’s not what he’s saying. When he used effeminate in relation to mans nature he’s only specifically speaking about men. You know that men, as being called to be patriarchs, are therefor called to do what is tough. A man who refuses to do what is tough is going against the natural law for why he exists. Women are likewise called to be tough in their own regard but not to the extent that it goes beyond their feminine nature and becomes masculine. An example of this would be a woman not submitting to her husband as a patriarch of the family. That would be a woman who’s gone beyond her feminine nature to do what is masculine. Mary was strong but she never circumvented Joseph’s authority. Mary is the greatest human saint; however, there was still certain things God would only allow to go through Joseph and this would include the vision to move himself, Mary, and Christ in order to protect his family.

Again, see above.

I don’t think he’s off on judging character by the music one listens to. Of course there can be exceptions to the rule but not so much for the majority.

 

Or it could just be good old attachment on your part.

 

St. Joan of Arc?

 

Says you and St. John Paul II but that is the problem with art or p-subs or what have you. You can't control how people view it or misview it. Similarly thinking old folk songs differ in acceptability from modern Christian rap simpliy because they lack bass is misinterpretation in my opinion.

You know the Hare Krishnas believe eating onions and garlic awakens passions and that eating mushrooms is bad because they grow in darkness. Sounds like the same agruements to me.

 

And defending nudity in art and statues from antiquity could be you and the popes attachment.

 

What about her? What’s masculine and what’s feminine have to do with the natural law in what God willed us to be. Joan of Arc was a soldier not a patriarch.

Ah but we can all see the difference between Greek art and p-subs on Instagram. Also we can take reasonable steps to ensure people view things correctly; however, if they continue to view things in an unreasonable light -example you comparing Greek art with p-subs- there isn’t much more we can do than shake our heads. There is a difference between someone misunderstanding something and someone being stupid.

If that’s what you got from his talk then I think you missed the forest for the trees.

Looks like we struck of chord with you and music.

 

I actually really liked his talk. I've never listened to an hour long video posted by anyone, so that shows you how much I respect your opinion. We are also fully aligned on our beliefs so their is not much to argue unfortunately.

At the end of the day or should I say life, I have no doubt the best I can hope for is many centuries in purgatory listening to records. I just hope I get to curate the collection. I couldn't take much EDM unfortunately.

What I also know from experience is that my greatest thoughts of God, the beauty of humanity, the knowledge of the mystical, moments of true communion with what I can only tell you is the true God came during jazz songs, punk songs, 60's "acid rock", etc... They weren't Gregorian chats exclusively (although a bit of that would make the list). Same goes for all the arts in general.

It is a highly narrow position to assert that this "degeneracy" cannot ever enlighten the soul. I will admit it is logically and philosophically sound, but then how does one explain my experience and the experience of many others? I'll keep it in my heart and mind though. It's possible I'll see it differently. That's why I marked the poll as a "maybe".

I'll end with a classic in honor of St. Stephen.

 

I want you to know that I respect your opinion as well. When I first heard the talk given by this priest I had much of the same reactions you did and sometimes still do. However, one day I told myself if I really wanted to test it it then I would try, as best I could, to be obedient to the advice given. For me it helped me deepen my relationship with God beyond the experiences I had with secular music and I believe it will do the same for you. The thing is it’s very easy to revert back to old habits without the grace of God, so I’m having to relearn this again.

How can I explain how God was able to communicate to you through something degenerate? Well, I can’t. It’s a mystery just like I don’t know how He was able to enter my heart through the abuse I encountered as a child, but He did. I believe God knows our hearts and minds so He helps in accordance with where we our in our life and understanding but there always comes a time when He asks us to grow with Him and that this growth usually entails some form of detachment on our part, even from things which are legitimately good.

 

Well...I'm always up for a challenge. Considering I consume more music, both live and recorded, then the average bloke it will be quite a feat.

Can't I just say like 15 rosaries a day instead?...thats how much I love it

 

One thing that Ive found most helpful in my recovery is playing music. Is there a different talk on that? As a bass player I wouldn't get much action in the chant scene unfortunately.

 

Have you thought about polyphony? Lots of need for bass vocalists.

I haven’t found a talk yet about that but I’ll send it to you if I come across one; I’m sure it would be about the importance of recreation in the spiritual life.

 

No. I only think people should have one wife.

 

Lecrea>
Also I love Jotaro.

 

Classical and Jazz instrumental seems safe. So does spiritual instrumental. Anything that provides peace and focus.

 

Same and I've been fighting with this since I got baptized (same with Pmo)
There is Christian hip hop with artists like Lecrae, Nf, Andy Mineo, Bizzle, Kb, ... also if you can look up for artists that are conscious rappers like Joey badass, Chance the rapper, j cole and their clean versions ... I try to not listen to music that promotes sin and greed ... it is hard but worth it.

 

I grew up with an extremely strict rule about music - no music was allowed except classical and some Christian. I say some Christian because not all Christian music was allowed. If it didn't mention Jesus in every song it was considered to be bad. Nowadays I'm I get annoyed when I hear people saying I shouldn't listen to certain music or certain artists are controlled by the devil. Now I will say certain artists who I consider to have crossed a moral boundary I stop listening to like Katy Perry, Ryan Adams, Michael Jackson, Kanye West... Maybe I'm being a bit judgmental here idk I just don't feel all that comfortable listening to such artists. But some video on YouTube declaring a certain artist worships the devil does nothing for me. I've heard it all before and I think it's nonessential.

The way I see it is most songwriters capture the thoughts and experiences people have and make a song about it. There might be some songs I find silly or annoying. Like there's this Sam Smith song where he sings about leaving a woman he's in a relationship with at midnight because he can't talk about how he feels. I consider that to be bad relationship advice but then again some people do that.

Another thing is we need to remember music and songwriting is an art. How literally should you take the lyrics of a song? What if the songwriter is an unreliable narrator? I think someone like Billie Eilish is an unreliable narrator.

 

It's fairly simple for me. There is music I like, and music I don't. I avoid listening to the music I don't like. I listen regularly to music I do like, regardless of its genre or lyrical content if it has any. Whilst music can have many purposes, for me I've never bothered with having a soundtrack to when I've had sex, and if there was a soundtrack to a porno I would mute the video or find another one that doesn't have music in it, because more often than not I wouldn't like the music.