Being Gay or Bisexual

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Ready to be healthy, Oct 9, 2017.

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  1. Plutonium

    Plutonium Fapstronaut

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    You asked: "what rights do you argue we have "more" than others?"

    I answered.

    I note from your reply that you accept gays have more rights - in the form of levels of legal protection - than non-gays.

    Whether or not you consider this positive discrimination to be justified is beside the point.
     
  2. Dake1963

    Dake1963 Fapstronaut

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    I have always been bisexual, and I have never really understood how one can be just one. If people say they are exclusively one or the other I believe them, but there is still a bit of me that just really never gets it.
     
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  3. MiddleGround1706

    MiddleGround1706 Fapstronaut

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    This has to be the most tone-deaf thing I've read today. Listen, I personally don't care if you don't 'agree' with being gay or being bisexual. That's on you. Do I consider it to be homophobic? To an extent, yes. In the same way that I would consider someone racist if they didn't 'agree' with being black. When I was born, I didn't think 'I want to be bisexual'. It happened. So there's that.

    Secondly, I don't understand what the hell 'positive discrimination' is. That's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. Please define 'positive discrimination in its many forms' and the benefits of that, please. Thank you.

    Thirdly, it isn't textbook inequality, because you're not being treated unfairly as a straight man. That is absurd. The LGBT community, much like feminists, want equality. I'm going to presume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are a straight white man. If that is the case, your life is pretty much set. The likelihood of you being beaten for your sexuality or denied an opportunity because of it is low. You can marry any woman you so wish, believe what you want, and do whatever you want. The world is yours. Gay people are only now being treated as equals, and even then, there's resistance. The fight to allow LGBT marriage took forever and is yet to be implemented in some areas. The efforts to stop attacks on LGBT people continue. The denial of jobs because of 'moral beliefs' will never happen to you. You're fine.

    I'll restate my point because I can already sense your urge to pick out my above examples as blatant signs of inequality against you: the LGBT community wants to live the same life you do. They want to marry and have kids and be happy. But they have been denied those rights for a very long time. You are not being treated unfairly because others want what you have. This is my pro-feminism argument, too. Your life is not threatened by equality. Tomorrow, you will still be a straight white man. You can still do all the things you can do now without question. LGBT people just want to be treated the same way.

    I don't mean to sound patronising or angry, and I apologise if I do sound that way. I'm sure you're a very smart guy, you've probably got a great life, you're here trying to better yourself. I respect that and I sincerely look forward to hearing you explain a little more about your views on this. And I'm fine agreeing to disagree if that's what happens. But you have to try and see this from the other side: gay people are people too. They're no different to you, except for their sexuality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  4. grantham99

    grantham99 Fapstronaut

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    MiddleGround1706 said it better than I could.
     
  5. No that is not my goal.
     
  6. I disagree, the thread is titled "being gay or bisexual." In the OP's first post, he discusses internal struggles and the idea of being homosexual as emotionally and morally okay.

    The whole idea of a struggle is internal conflict. Call it morality, call it conscience, call it whatever you want. I believe that we can help a person who is struggling by explaining to them where a homosexual lifestyle could lead.
     
  7. And where did this innate sense originate? I'm going out on a limb by assuming you believe in an infinite natural law rather than an infinite individual. If this assumption is true, then how can you explain natural law assigning a quality which it lacks (i.e. natural law is incapable of delegating morality from all historical observations).
     
  8. You can't change your race by making a choice like you can with sexual orientation. This is not an accurate comparison.

    First, by "marriage" I assume you mean tax benefits? Why would a homosexual have any desire to participate in a ceremony that is by definition opposed to homosexuality (See Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1:27 as examples)?

    Second, what about my right as a heterosexual man, a father, and a Christian to not want my young kids exposed to behavior that I believe is wrong, destructive, and altogether inappropriate? I'm not talking about people who are gay and keep to themselves, I'm talking about the many who insist on embedding their believes into our culture. I can no longer be opposed to homosexuality without being brandished as any number of derogatory names.

    As a side note, both of my next door neighbors are gay. They are some of the nicest guys I've met in our community. I know them by name and have great conversations with them frequently. Rick and Gary are their names. I have no problems with them, even though I disagree with their lifestyle. You know why? Because far as I can tell, they aren't rubbing their sexuality in anyone's face, demanding that their orientation be represented in school teachings, or any number of things the out-of-control LGBT community does these days.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2017
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  9. grantham99

    grantham99 Fapstronaut

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    Ahahaha “I’m not homophobic because my next door neighbours are gay but they’re still going to hell”
     
  10. grantham99

    grantham99 Fapstronaut

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    According to Jack Harper, you’d better keep to yourself if you’re gay. That means no going and being public figures I guess. No singers, actors, musicians, authors, politicians. Gotta proctect “our culture” not let it be dirtied by the gays. Unbelievable.
     
  11. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    You can't change your sexual orientation by making a choice either. You can change your decisions. You can choose not to have sex or have relationships with people of the same sex, but you can't just choose not to be attracted to guys/girls.

    What if I told you that it was a sin to be heterosexual. Would you simply say "Oh okay, I'll just choose to be gay then. No big deal. It's just a choice."?
     
  12. Sarah Walker

    Sarah Walker Fapstronaut

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    That's what a lot of society wants nowadays, just "normal" straight people while I guess they'd prefer the gays and other "sinners" in a segregation type thing. It's like some religious people think they'll catch the gay like a disease.
     
  13. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Impossible. The world is an effed up place, dude. You can't keep your kids away from sin. They're sinners themselves. You can't expect the world to be like heaven, and you can't expect non-Christians to live their lives according to the Bible.
     
  14. MiddleGround1706

    MiddleGround1706 Fapstronaut

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    Good to meet you, Jack. I've been expecting you.

    No. It's a perfectly accurate comparison. Sexuality is not, as you seem to think it is, a shirt. When you see a pretty girl, do you choose to be attracted to her, or do you just 'feel' it? Do you choose to be hungry in the morning? Do you choose to blink? In all species of the animal kingdom are homosexuals. There are gay lions. There are gay penguins. There are even (gasp) gay birds. I'm so sorry, Jack. Now your kids have to be wary of those wretched homosexual birds! What a shame.

    This is outdated thinking by quite some distance. Science has proven the theory of choosing one's sexuality inaccurate more times than you've used words. But going by this comment, I'm guessing science isn't your thing. Being gay is not like picking a haircut, Jack. There is not a person on this planet that chooses who they find attractive and to suggest that is the case is laughable.

    Listen, I'll be upfront with you. I'm agnostic. I'm not a God-fearing man, but I'm also not going to tell you what to think or how to think. I respect people's religious views. However, I do take issue with you using your faith to deny others the opportunity to celebrate their love and commitment. It's surprisingly closed-minded and vitriolic for someone that is clearly so dedicated to the teachings of Jesus.

    I respect your opinion, but I don't appreciate nor accept it.

    Also, if you got married solely for the tax benefits, suddenly your whole post makes sense.

    Now we're talkin'. Here's the real good stuff, folks.

    I've said it before, I'll say it again: listening to Barbara Streisand will not turn your kids gay. Seeing Neil Patrick Harris in something will not make them gay. The colour pink will not make them gay. I see vegetables daily, but it doesn't make me a vegetarian. Because it doesn't matter. Shielding your kids from 'gay culture' won't do anything. If they're gay, they're already gay. It had nothing to do with you. It's the way they're meant to be, and they're fine the way they are. You cannot shield them from it forever. I can tell you from experience, there's a lot of really cool LGBT people in the world. And these young kids? They're incredibly tolerant, more than ever. It actually gives me hope. So when your kids go to their schools, they're going to meet gay kids. And it won't make them gay unless they already are gay. And if you have a problem with your kid being gay, that's on you. Not on them. They're fine the way they are. You, however, appear to have some issues.

    So, you're okay with gay people if they pretend to not be gay. That's what you're saying? What exactly is the problem with openly gay people, compared to closeted ones? And I don't want to hear the 'gay culture' thing again. It was bullshit the first time you said it. Give me a concrete argument for your problem.

    While we're at it, let me apologise on behalf of the entire LGBT community. You remember when we called you a homophobe because you were vehemently opposed to two consenting adults finding one another attractive? Or when we called you a homophobe because you said we were all 'wrong' and 'destructive? Or when we called you a homophobe because you seemed to be truly afraid or phobic of homosexuals? We were being so unfair. I am so sorry. I didn't even realise you were straight because of my bisexuality -- I'm double out-of-control, aren't I?

    I'm not even going to start on this. You seem to have evolved over this message from an out-of-touch overprotective homophobic father to a sitcom stereotype. Unless you don't believe in evolution, in which case, there's another thing I've pissed you off with.

    Also, good for you? I like peanut butter and my neighbour's name is Michael. This changes absolutely nothing about the stuff you wrote before, Jack. It comes across as a desperately manufactured attempt to tell me you're not a bad guy, followed by an insult to remind me that I am, apparently, 'out-of-control'. I'm 90% certain Rick and Gary don't exist, and even if they did, you sound so repulsed by the idea of even seeing a gay man that I bet you would only talk to them from a third-floor window.
     
  15. Sarah Walker

    Sarah Walker Fapstronaut

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    I have a good quote I saw a while back.[​IMG]
     
  16. Plutonium

    Plutonium Fapstronaut

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    Shouting "homophobic" is unfortunately now a reflex action for people like you. I sometimes wonder whether there is a quota to get through each day. However, please note - name calling is not an argument.

    Your analogy with race is empty considering the discussion here is to what degree porn consumption can change someone's sexuality. Whether sexuality is fluid is certainly open for debate. But no matter how much porn you watch no-one would dare argue it can change your ethnicity!

    All you go on about are the rights of the LGBT community. You are completely silent on the rights of children. Where do you ever consider the rights of the child to have a mother and a father? Child rearing is not about sexuality. Children are not props.

    Imho the T in LGBT are people suffering from a mental disorder and should receive appropriate help and treatment. People suffering from mental illness are not fit to adopt children.

    For the B in LGBT they can have exactly the same life as straight people, and are able to reproduce naturally and provide a mother and a father for their children. B is just a question of sexuality. What is stopping them from having the same life as a heterosexual person?

    But none of the above gets us any closer to understanding to what degree porn consumption can alter a person's sexuality...
     
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  17. Plutonium

    Plutonium Fapstronaut

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    I don't know where it comes from but I am not a natural law person, nor do I believe in a divine source of rights.

    The most interesting progress in philosophy and rights in the past 100 years has been in the field of economics but it has implications across the board. Ludvig von Mises presented his argument for the axiom of "human action" as purposeful behavior. He said you cannot deny human action without yourself using human action - purposeful behavior - to do so. Employing the very thing you set out to deny is the definition of axiomatic. Mises's student's student, Hans Hermann Hoppe has taken this one step further. He makes the case for the axiom of argumentation. That humans understand argumentation and also the preconditions necessary to allow argumentation. This is also clearly axiomatic because for someone to argue against argumentation it is necessary, of course, to argue.

    It then gets a bit complicated as to whether human action or argumentation comes first as they are both interconnected concepts requiring each other.

    But Hoppe goes on to show that what have previously been called natural rights - control of ones own body and private property etc - are all necessary preconditions for argumentation and are therefore bound up with it.

    I find Hoppe's thesis to be quite convincing, but have not yet fully absorbed it.

    Whether children have an innate grasp of private property rights due to their subconscious feel for the axioms of human action and argumentation I do not know. But they do seem to exhibit this understanding before any obvious instruction has been received from their parents. The "I found it first" - common to nearly all children - is particularly interesting as parents don't tend to ever say this.

    As an interesting aside - the Lockean concept of homesteading is our basis for how private property first comes into existence. We "homestead" a natural resource not previously owned by anyone else by "mixing our labor" with it. This equates to "I found (and used) it first". Not so very different from what a child says and implies.
     
  18. Themadfapper

    Themadfapper Fapstronaut

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    I really got to stay out of these gay debates, but. Sex is not a need. You will not die without it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  19. Jerry4NF

    Jerry4NF Fapstronaut

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    There is nothing I admire more in a person, or find more attractive, than the capacity to properly develop their arguments and ideas (specially with such effortless wit and humor). I couldn't have said it any better

    Would you please marry me MiddleGround1706? I mean... would you like to share tax benefits?
     
  20. Plutonium

    Plutonium Fapstronaut

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    So never in the history of the world has a gay man ever wanted to pull a straight guy?

    And "how to pick up a straight guy" returns exactly zero search results... o_O
     
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