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Catholicism,Calvinism,Reformed Theology & Addiction Debate

A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion

Feel Good Cool Worship or Hymns and Hard Seats?

  1. Feel Good Cool Worship?

    25.0%
  2. Hymns and Hard Seats?

    50.0%
  3. I don't even care!

    25.0%
  1. I like your style Mr. McMarty.
     
  2. You can make all the assumptions about my personal beliefs that you want.

    The cross was used by pagan civilizations like the Celts, Babylonians and the Romans long before Christ existed. The ancient Hebrews never nailed people to crosses for punishment. Christ was crucified by the same pagan Romans who later combined their pagan customs with Christianity. Christ never chose the cross as a symbol of his sacrifice.

    There is nothing holy about the cross as it is Jesus's sacrifice that was important.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2019
  3. The interesting thing for me is that if God was in control of the whole narrative, then he presumably decided that death on a cross would be the most fitting and perfect expression of that sacrifice. Why? Why not stoning, or drowning and being burned at a stake? Why allow death at the hands of pagans in the first place?

    Then more questions start to form... Why come as a man and not a woman? Why take disciples? Why come from the linage of David? If you believe that God ordained and planned these events why would you presume there isn't meaning in the way they were expressed?
     
  4. Maybe conquering death using a pagan symbol was a perfect way to illustrate that he is God over everything. Even the most powerful group in existence at that time...the pagan Romans and the fact they handed that symbol over to the christian church after Christianity overtook their civilization further proved that point.
     
  5. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Going by what @Max Fisher wrote, I highly recommend you ready On the Incarnation by saint Athanasius. The book goes into deep detail as to why Christ was crucified on the cross and not murdered by some other means. Not only that but also the spiritual significance of the cross and what it represents to Christians. The cross is so significant to our salvation that even the old testament predicted how Christ would suffer on the cross.

    "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." Deuteronomy 21:23

    and again

    "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree'." Galatians 3:13

    The cross represents Christ's sacrifice for us. It represents his ineffable love for mankind. It represents the curse of Adam which Christ took on himself. It was only through the cross that we are made alive. Had Christ not given his life up on that cross that day, our curse would remain on us. We Christians put crosses on our churches and wear them around our necks to always be reminded of Christ's sacrifice, not only that but to also allow ourselves to be sacrifice for others, for the bible also writes:

    Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13
     
  6. I never suggested that there was no meaning in the way Jesus was sacrificed.

    I simply stated the FACT that the cross was a pagan symbol apropriated by the Paganism infused Roman Catholic Church as opposed to the Hebrews or the early Christians. The cross is a symbol and has no power in itself. @SolitaryScribe got triggered and attempted to insult my relationship with Christ because he could not refute this fact.
     
  7. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Bet you the Romans would have never thought that that one Jew they crucified would one day be their God.
     
  8. The cross is symbol and has no power on its own. It is Christ's divinity, perfection and sacrifice that gives us salvation.
     
    Deleted Account and Mr. McMarty like this.
  9. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    You're issue is you see Christ's power and being separate from his creation. Christ's holiness is exactly what gives the cross power. It's Christ who also gives us power overcome the enemy. When Christ came, he did not only come to cleanse humanity, he literally came to cleanse all of creation. When he was baptized in the Jorden river, he cleansed all of our waters. When we was crucified he cleansed our air, when his blood dripped to the ground he cleansed the earth.

    God dwelt with Adam and Eve in paradise, when we were cast out God no longer dwelt with us. Then He tried again to dwell with the Jews in the tabernacle but once again we strayed from God and could not abide by the law. Then the law become flesh and dwelt among us as man, and by his incarnation we were reunited with God. Don't look at things as either being made from man or from God. God works through man, therefore the things made by man for God are made holy.
     
  10. Again the cross is a symbol that we associate with Christ's sacrifice with no power in itself.

    -You can't be redeemed by gluing 2 stick's together if you have not repented and you don't have faith
    -You can't excercise demonic spirits by holding up a cross
    -There are plenty of Godless, joyless and dogmatic churches and homes with crosses displayed all over the walls
    -I used to have crosses and membership in a Godeless church but I didn't even have the strength to even attempt to start to resist PMO/Drugs/ Casual Sex until I humbled myself and begin to spend real time praying to God and studying the word. I'm no where near righteousness but I've made huge progress and it's not because of a cross. If the symbol itself had any power I never would have got into PMO in the first place.

    Don't reduce Jesus's power to a simple idol.
     
  11. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Seems like you've had a personal bad experience with your previous church so your rejecting any type of symbolism your previous church had. I wouldn't be so hasty to throw out the baby with the bath water. There are a lot of messed people who go through similar experiences to yours, heck I even have direct siblings of mine who have rejected Christianity completely because of bad experiences at church. Though I would say, don't let those experiences cloud your judgment. If you want a sincere relationship with God, then don't give up on his community that fast. We're all sinners and we all need a place of healing. Try to find a new church that will support you and offer you sense of love and community that we all need.

    Don't cut yourself off from the rest of God's sheep. Salvation is achieved communally, not individually. We're all in the body of Christ.
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  12. My experiences in church and my view on symbolism have nothing to do with one another. I'm not where I want to be in terms of righteousness but I have a sincere relationship with Christ. I understand who Christ is and the grace that his sacrifices provide which is why I am not hung up on a symbol which has no actual power. Without faith, humility and submission to God, that symbol is useless.
     
    need4realchg and Deleted Account like this.
  13. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Well, in the end it's up to you of what you want to believe. I just hope you don't lose you're faith entirely and cast out the bible as a pagan book.
     
  14. I can't agree with this more. You seem Catholic by your responses but that could be my confirmation bias. Understanding the power or lack there of within objects is a tricky thing. Holy means set apart and clearly objects used for the worship of God explicitly and exclusively are holy, meaning they are set apart for that purpose. Even the Lord's supper as interpreted by Calvinists is power infused into a material substance, it's just that substance lacks the properties of actual flesh and blood. I think this is where Calvin and the Pope actually have more in common theologically than some other denominations ironically enough.

    A driver's license is infused with meaning and power and flashing it to people who understand that meaning gets you the desired effect. For that reason I would actually argue demons would be repelled by crosses and holy objects because as stated earlier in the thread "even the demons know Jesus" which would mean they understand the power associated with it. These are different from idols although that's where it gets a little tricky. Questions..when the burning bush spoke to Moses was the actual burning bush God? When the dove descended on Jesus as the Holy Spirit was it actually God? Was the incarnation necessary and if so what are it's implications to the material world (you touched on this already)?

    This reminds me of a painting. See? I would argue that an idol is an idol when it's not God...duh.... BUT what if it is? Like the Eucharist? A "thing" that is actually God? It ceases to be an idol no? BUT is the cross the same? Obviously no...BUT is it a third thing, a holy thing with power? Hmmmm.....
    download (1).jpg
     
  15. What does the Apostles' Creed mean when it says that Jesus descended into hell?
    The Apostles’ Creed is used as an integral form of worship in many Christian bodies. One of the more puzzling statements in that creed is: [Jesus] descended into hell.
     
  16. What is the significance of baptism? https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/what-significance-baptism/
    Just as an aside, the word significance has as its root the word sign. A sign is something that points to something beyond itself. We all recognize that whatever baptism signifies, Jesus obviously thought it was very important because he gives a command to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Whatever else it is, baptism is the sign of the new covenant that God makes with his people. We do have the clear mandate in the New Testament that Christians are to be baptized.
     
    Christian Fox likes this.
  17. Infant or adult or both?
     
  18. your asking questions you already know the answers to ahahahaha
     
  19. the real question is submerse or sprinkle
     
    Ra's Al Ghul likes this.

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