Celibacy

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Buzz Lightyear, Jun 16, 2018.

  1. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Celibacy is actually quite a simple affair once you have the libido under control. To think that it must be a continual and strenuous psychological struggle may reflect how far our culture has slid... not to mention how much time we spend on this site, where an out-of-control libido is almost normalized.

    In the old books of ethics, it was thought that a large percentage of people were perfectly capable of continence [not at war with themselves] due largely to habit and upbringing [and then there were the few who were though virtuous through self-determination].
     
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  2. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I get where your coming from, but I don't thinks that's a very good comparison. It's not the norm to be a sexual deviant, nor is it natural or holy. Therefor it's much easier not to think about polygamous relationships when you have developed feelings for someone.

    However celibacy is indeed a burden, it impacts your entire life. We were made to be social creatures, as well as sexual creatures. Unless you have a firm support or are living in a community with other celibates, it will be extremely challenging. Living in the world where everyone is married and having kids will have a psychological impact on you. Many of the church fathers advocate that monastic life is necessary for those seeking a celibate life. Because they understand that it is not a light burden, and the devil can use it to destroy you.
     
  3. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I agree with you. Our cultural norm has shifted the view on celibacy, not only that it has also shifted the livelihood of those who are choosing the celibate life. Hence it's important to find a community of people living a similar life.

    From the Christian perspective, God created us to live in community, even monastics live in community! It's imperative for the spiritual life to be able to live with others who help you grow in the Christian faith.
     
  4. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I think what you are looking to be is to be abstinent, not celibate. Which I will back you up on that %100. Don't go around having sex until you've settled with someone you love in marriage.

    Once again its better to get married than burn with the passion. If anyone wants to pursue celibacy they must be a bit realistic with themselves. There has to be a prime reason for choosing celibacy, not only that there has to be a goal as to why the person is choosing celibacy. If the person is finding it hard to abstain from PMO for a length of time, he needs to take that into consideration. The last thing you want is to live a life of constant relapse with the title of "celibate", because that's essentially lying to yourself. I'm not saying that your not going to struggle, everyone struggles with the desires. However before you make any claim or calling for yourself, you have to taste that life first and see if its something you can see yourself doing for the rest of your life.
     
  5. It seems to me there are more cases of abuse in the Catholic Church than any other denomination. Sure there are a few cases of it happening in the Anglican and Evangelical Church but no way near as big as the Catholic Church. Spotlight and The Keepers was about the Catholic Church - no other church... So what's causing it if it's not celibacy?

    It's a shame because it put me off from going to a Catholic Church - I just don't trust Catholic priests. There are some good Catholics and some of them are members of this forum but doesn't change the fact I don't the priests.
     
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  6. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I don't think there is anything you need to worry about, unless he starts sneaking his hands in your pants. :p
     
  7. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    In the Christian tradition there are four transcendentals that raise us above our circumstance - truth, goodness, beauty and unity. These transcendentals have the potential to empower celibacy, whether for life or the present moment, in the cultivation of a more refined self developing from its base elements... much as a rose can develop from dirt. These transcendentals give rise to four cultures, some of which are more communal in nature than others. Artistic and intellectual culture provide plenty of examples of solitudes capable of celibacy.

    Perhaps it is another social norm of today [and why norms always are questionable] that solitude is frowned upon. people find it increasingly difficult to be alone… hence the addiction to social media. In the past, times of solitude were prized and considered almost essential. Consider Johnson's quote - 'If idle, be not solitary; if solitary, be not idle'. … though I think this could concede too much to the Protestant work ethic, and not give enough to the contemplative life.:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
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  8. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    I'm pretty agnostic on celibacy. I think it has it's place.

    It would be a positive message to the "incels" to offer celibacy as something not so shameful. This message doesnt have to be explictly Catholic.

    On a different note many people cite legalized prostituition as a potential solution. If you cant find a meaningful, organic relationship with a consenting partner, why can't you simply pay to exercise your "natural" sexuality? In other words if you can't get a partner, cant control your urges, why can't you pay for sex if someone is willing to take it?
     
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  9. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Because sex is not a need... it is a desire and desires can be controlled. Another example of how ethics can not be based on [political] rights.

    Moral issues such as this serve to portray that ethics, morality, philosophy, religion etc are core concerns that the more peripheral concern of politics can not 'eat up'. A large part of the problem today is the politicization of life. You see this in the latest ideology of feminism.
     
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  10. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    But neither are cigarettes...what is the purpose of controlling yourself? Why would I want to control my desires if I identify as an incel?

    If the burden as @SolitaryScribe describes celibacy is too great and the possibility for a moral sexual relationship is too remote, what is the solution? Self control? As many point out this might lead to abuse. Is advocating the narrow path impractical at best or irresponsible at worst?

    (I assume we agree btw, I'm just pressing you to sharpen your point)
     
  11. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    The problem is one of education [a lack of ethical instruction... and a mis-education]. It was assumed that the only education required for 'consumers' to function well was one tailored to the needs of the economy. But obviously, given the amount of self-destructive carnage out there [thinking the opioids crisis in the States], this is not true. People are failing to cope.

    educatio… leading out [from the mass]

    This huge blind spot is due primarily to materialism... both in its economic and philosophical aspects. It completely neglects the inner life... which is a crucial part of any adolescents education. They want to understand how their ideal interests could align with the interests of [abstract] society. Confronted with a vacuum here, they instinctively resist and rebel.... and good on them for doing so as they are affirming their idealism and humanity. But the point of an ethical education, and the humanities, is to bring the individual and the collective together in practical terms. What we are left with now is the abstract individual with their abstract political rights, on the one hand, alienated against a towering bureaucratic unintelligible dehumanizing leviathan of a state on the other.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  12. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    I think it depends on the person and the circumstance. I do agree that celibacy is objectively more difficult, otherwise it wouldn't be so rare. What is a good comparison?
     
  13. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    This is really good. Would you say...we need something to acknowledge our humanity and dignity and then empower us with purpose, to live ethical lives? I'm not sure I agree education covers the gap.
     
  14. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Yes, we need an ethical education... that is what our humanity consists of [not abstract rights]. The ordering principle here is the one between civilization/ civility and barbarism. All of this reflects in our psychology... the barbarous state of mind has the passions out of control... the civilized/ ethical state of mind has reason [practical reason/ethics] in control of the passions. Back to the Greeks!

    Our education system has been hollowed out, and only educates for the 'body', that is, how you are to function in a material economy. It is mis-education because it is anti-education in being ideological, and also in missing the whole point of education and the reality of our selves. Today's purely 'scientific' education, if not counter-balanced by the arts, is dehumanizing.

    So I would say ethical education, in the formation of our character, is the crucial factor that makes celibacy not only possible but unexceptional.

    I'd add that all of this is applicable to recovery from an addiction. The self-determined acquisition of continence is the very definition of virtue [vir… virile... manliness].
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
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  15. It would still bother me if he was doing something to other people.

    Having said that the only church that has had a known problem with this sort of thing in my area is not a Catholic Church but a URC Church.
     
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  16. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    aren't most protestant pastors married?
     
  17. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    While I agree with this statement. I feel like ethical education is really where religion is supposed to come into play. How do you teach ethical education from a secular point of view? it wouldn't have any purpose or reason.
     
  18. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    that's an interesting question. I'm not really sure if there is anything out there that compares to celibacy. The thing with choosing to live celibate is you're choosing self denial. A rejection of what society has made the pinnacle of human happiness, that being relationships and family.

    That being said, I believe that celibacy is a calling as much as it is a choice. celibacy can either refine your spiritually or make you into a demon. The same I guess can be said about marriage. There has to be a central goal, if the goal isn't to grow, you will regress and all the ugly will surface.
     
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  19. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Ummm… basically the whole of humanities. The old classical humanism has a lot of cultural affinities with religion. Indeed, in many ways, from a cultural perspective, the Catholic Church was a continuation of Greco-Roman culture.. Augustine is a significant figure here.

    It is secular naturalism that is the problem with our education, where an over-emphasis is put on science. This naturalistic worldview in turn increasingly swallows up the old humanities into the social sciences, which become political and post-modern in nature. Lost is the old ideal of disinterestedness, aesthetic pleasure, and knowledge for its own sake.
     
  20. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    This is just the bi-product of an increasingly atheistic/anti-religious culture. The over emphasis on science is the result of trying to fill the gap that was once filled by religion. Which as you said is leading the humanities to be swallowed up by natural science, or in some circumstances we get a form of humanities that is shallow and hollow of any meaning.
     
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