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  1. hillmountain

    hillmountain Fapstronaut

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    In the old yesterday
    Testament, Satan appears in Job, Zechariah Isaiah etc.....

    In the book of Job (old testament) Satan has the power to afflict Job with many evils, kill his relatives etc... When God gave him permission....... So Satan definitely has power to do evil.....


    The Satan of the old testament is the same Satan of the new testament, since both books are not literary inventions of humans alone, but books inspired in man by God
     
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  2. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    :) I was going to ask you first, actually. Meaning, to ask what you believe from the Torah/etc about the identity and nature of Satan the father of lies.

    But, sure, examples are readily identifiable.
     
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  3. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    Well, I saw you bring an example from the book of Job. The book of Job is a complicated book (BTW, according to tradition, Job was written by Moses about a righteous Caananite man named Job who died right when the first 12 spies came to Caanan).
    I think it's clear from Job that while Satan has practically free reign in torturing abilities - in the end, or rather: the beginning, he first has to get permission from God.

    Why do hardships come upon man? To better us. These are challenges to make us grow. That's what God wants of us: To grow!
    Satan, while at times seems like a free being, is just another arm of God tasked with the mission of challenging man. Challenging man to grow.
     
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  4. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    That is interesting about will. But God has a will and he is not physical. So how would you address that?

    Angels in Catholicism are fairly static too. Angels are understood to have an immense intelligence. Also they don’t learn as man does. So the Angels when they were given a choice understood the choice entirely and made a firm and eternal decision. They couldn’t change their mind. They wouldn’t change their mind. Thus the choice was made at the beginning of creation.

    In Catholicism (or at least in typical Catholic thought) animals and even plants have souls just like in Aristotle’s teaching. The soul is what animates or gives life to something. Souls would have different levels with man having the highest since he has reason and will.

    In your view wouldn’t mental acts, such as coveting, also be sins?
     
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  5. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    God in any case is on a different level than any being. He, being the creator, made the distinction between physical and spiritual.

    Off the top of my head (though I may be forgetting something), some thoughts would be regarded as sinful or close to sin. In the end, you can only go so far in controlling your thoughts (as we fapstronauts know very well). Thoughts are different from actually sinning by action.
     
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  6. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    I would call it "knowledge". They have access to a lot of knowledge. Which can also be said of Satan. I think it's because they have existed for so long. Not because of a better intelligence, though. We have the opportunity to be intelligent by choosing to repent and be obedient.

    True. The spirits within are necessary for life.

    Man's free will is given by God, not necessarily an innate thing. We couldn't have chosen this life by ourself, could not have gifted ourselves into existence. God in Heaven as creator of all things chose have us refer to him as the title of Father. We are special to Him :)
     
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  7. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    Maimonides called it the nefesh, which yes, you could translate as spirit, but he makes a clear distinction between the human nefesh/spirit and the animalistic nefesh/spirit - the animals have a physical nefesh, while the human nefesh is directly tied to the God-given soul.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019
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  8. Mr. McMarty

    Mr. McMarty Fapstronaut

    God also loves hotdogs and puppys. in what context does he love all people? he is gracious to give all people life and the earth. his judgment of the wicked people brings him glory!
     
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  9. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Agree with your direction of thought here. God's love is expressed conditionally, yes. However, to answer your context, ALL are invited to believe and repent and grow and attain to a better life in the kingdom. Not all will receive such, sad fact. God is no respecter of persons, yes? But, a respecter of choices.

    Animals and plants and the Earth herself follow Gods will and command and will always be brought back into the kingdom, as a new world in a new life. But, we have received agency to choose, and that is a supreme privilege.
     
  10. hillmountain

    hillmountain Fapstronaut

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    I ask for prayers for my cousin, who has had a road accident and is in a somewhat serious condition
     
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  11. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    Refuah shlemah - may he/she have a speedy and full recovery.
     
  12. Mr. McMarty

    Mr. McMarty Fapstronaut

    Praying now!
     
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  13. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    You brought this up a couple of times. I don't know what it means. Some choices are only given to some people. In this way it can be said God is a respecter of persons. He discriminates. He chooses some over others. This is an inverse way of looking at respect of persons.

    Natural law or physics does not respect persons. We get cancer, we fall if we jump off buildings. Yet this also leads to God's preference of people right? Because through miracles he saves some and not others from physical consequences, it's not always consistent it is conditional to choices, otherwise why would the righteous suffer or the unjust prosper?
     
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  14. Mr. McMarty

    Mr. McMarty Fapstronaut

    God always gets what he wants in the end. If you are saved its for his glory, if your not its for his glory.
     
  15. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    In Catholic thought ideas come into our minds. That isn’t sinful. But if we choose to embrace a sinful idea or purposefully chose to think about something evil then that is wrong. So, if the thought simply enters my mind to have sex with my neighbors wife that isn’t a sin. But if I start to make that thought into a full fledged fantasy script then that is my fault.

    Angels also have knowledge, but I’d consider that separate from their intelligence. The knowledge is all what a God permits them to know. In Catholic thought Satan is a being of incredible intelligence and knowledge both of which surpass any mere man. However his great power is overshadowed by his disobedience.

    In Thomistic-Aristotelian thought plants would have a vegetative soul. The brutes would have an animal soul. This builds on the vegetative soul. Then man has a soul which builds on the animal soul but also has reason.
     
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  16. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Not so. We are given the choice.

    This idea is held by many Christians -- as if they believe the only reason God does things is to exalt himself further. Jesus did not come here for that purpose, but to do the will of the Father. Jesus came into the world and loved the world, and also gifted to us a great sacrifice out of His own love. God's purposes are much more grand than aggrandizement, the purpose is an eternal cycle of bringing more children into the spheres of His joy.

    God is not diminished in glory by the rebellion of children, to put it another way. When the rebellion of Lucifer drew away a third of the hosts of angels in heaven, God was not diminished. God does not "need" us to glorify Him. God is there either way, eternal and unchangeable in love, power, intelligence, and so forth. We do properly want to glorify Him out of our love for him; it benefits us. Also, we are commanded to have no other gods, but to reverence the Lord our God. But, that qualifies us for a reward of joy more than it does actually garner some new speck of glory for God.

    Thoughts from others about this are appreciated. it's just one of those things I find interesting as being inconsistent about the nature and objectives of God and His creations.

    That's not the context of those scriptures at all. Being a respecter of persons is to act as if one flesh is valued over another, on the basis of some vain thing. God judges us by the thoughts and intents of our hearts. We should be very egalitarian in how we treat people, as enjoined by James.

    Your perspective is interesting, though it isn't supported by those passages of scripture. When we have been given much, much is expected. The parable of the talents addresses this quite effectively. The distinction, then, becomes in what we do with what we have received. In the story told of Lazarus, while not much was given in life, he was received into heaven; on the other hand, while the rich man had a great deal of privilege in life, he inherited the fires of hell. That rich man wanted to warn his family, but it was stated as required that we all exercise faith.

    Interesting. Our expectation is that to the faithful, God will reveal all things. We as children inherit a great promise, indeed.
     
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  17. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    I see your point better now. Yes, the first will become last etc. I realize that. But Mary was chosen as the Mother of God, which was wholly a choice from God (pending her cooperation, which he foresaw. A tricky one, yes). He created her special to in fact receive this honor. She was actually created different from others (favoritism) and was as a result better then others through that grace and lifted to a loftier position then others in heaven. I expect you will disagree. :)

    The other point is that when you say "When we have been given much, much is expected." I'm not sure I 100% follow. I could for example say I have a great mind for business. I could earn tons of money and give it to the poor and create 1000's of jobs with my intellect. Would it then be a sin to forsake that for a humble existence as a Franciscan Friar owning nothing and begging for my keep? Could that not be a sacrifice to honor God? Could it not be my vocation despite my gifts? Just something to think about....
     
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  18. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Indeed, speedy thinker you. I have all those types of thoughts, btw. There just are simple distinctions of correct principles which I apply that lead me to other conclusions. (Mine being correct. :p)


    Bah. Don't expect disagreement. Just another angle of light, a little adjustment in angle and direction. We're on the same ball of rock speaking the same language a whole long ways from the heavenly spheres.

    For me, people such as Mary or Moses are more like a well-cut quality gem than some predestined soul. They are elect due to the position assigned in life. They already were of great worth and quality from the place that God clothed their essence in spirit.

    So, yes, God is able to rely on those elect more. Still, I certainly believe and know that all people are given an equal opportunity to succeed in life, and to attain to the utmost degree of glory. Not many other Christians can say that, but we Mormons definitely pride ourselves in the universality claim.
     
  19. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    I guess I can't disagree too much with any of that (dang it :(). I still think cake is better then pie though! Prove me wrong!
     
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  20. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Why did God even reveal cake when obviously fruit pie was already better???
     
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