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  1. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    Its clear. The ingredients in fruit pie would have been offered by Cain which are far less pleasing to God then what Able offered. If anything God hates desserts and would prefer a meat pie but since there is such a thing as angel food cake and devils food cake, cake has the upper hand spiriutally in my opinion. Granted there are pie in the sky ideas, and God lives in the sky...so...hmmm this is a thinker. No. Definately, cake is better.
     
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  2. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    LOL @ Max :D
    Thanks for seeing through my smarm!
    You are a rare class act, fine sir!
     
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  3. hillmountain

    hillmountain Fapstronaut

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    While Mary was given a greater honor than others (except Jesus of course) , she also gave back to God more than others.... She was without sin (protected from sin by God with her cooperation also), fully did the will of God and had every virtue, and had to face so much suffering for God's sake (especially seeing Jesus be rejected and crucified even though he was innocent)
     
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  4. hillmountain

    hillmountain Fapstronaut

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    Becoming a friar, dedicating your whole life to God, is not giving less than creating many jobs for others, even if you don't have a penny to help others with... It's a great sacrifice to God in itself which will honor God.....
     
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  5. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    @hillmountain I'm not familiar with the idea Mary was 'protected' from sin. Is that a common view? Her whole life, or just during the time of being with child?
     
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  6. hillmountain

    hillmountain Fapstronaut

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    Even before she was born, Mary was protected from sin by God through a special Grace..... Protestants reject that view, but before protestantism, that view was widely held in the church from the earliest periods...

    “This Virgin Mother of the Only Begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” – ORIGEN, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

    “Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.”
    – Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).


    “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.”
    -Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).


    Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”
    Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).



    “We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.”
    – Augustine, Nature and Grace, 42 [36] (A.D. 415).
     
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  7. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    Exactly, that was my point. "Much is expected" means there are expectations but to know them is to discern properly. Its too simple to assume our "talents" are anything more then icing on a cosmic cake. Mmmm cake. Sorry Im rambling and feeling...odd.
     
  8. hillmountain

    hillmountain Fapstronaut

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    Even before she was born, Mary was protected from sin by God through a special Grace..... Protestants reject that view, but before protestantism, that view was widely held in the church from the earliest periods...

    “This Virgin Mother of the Only Begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” – ORIGEN, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

    “Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.”
    – Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).


    “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.”
    -Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).


    Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”
    Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).



    “We must except the Holy Virgin Mary,concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject ofsins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.”
    – Augustine, Nature and Grace, 42 [36] (A.D. 415).
     
  9. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    This was my point that God favors some uniquely. You had no arguement on that. But yes this view is what I was saying you would reject...or such was my assumption.
     
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  10. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi in his phenomenal work "The Book Of The Kuzari" brings something similar, but not exactly the same: Plants have a certain level of life and are above non-living objects. Animals have a higher level of life for being able to move and are above plants, and mankind have a higher form of life for being able to think & communicate and are above animals (the next level, BTW, are the prophets - people able to communicate directly with God). The difference is that Rabbi HaLevi doesn't say that all beings have the same kind of soul but with some sort of "bonus feature" according to rank. Different beings have different sources of life, and in plants & animals it's merely a semblance of life and not the real deal.
     
  11. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    I actually agree with what @Mr. McMarty said. Wouldn't you say that though man has a choice, in the end - salvation will come whether we want it or not? The world is being lead in a certain direction on the macro level. On the micro level, we all still get to decide for ourselves what to do, but the world is still going in a certain direction.
     
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  12. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Who can argue with that? As an American in modern times, we're more favored than a host of BILLIONS. Yes? Most of all, privileged to hear the Word, and to come to know the Lord Christ Jesus, as Paul says.

    It is as simple as talents, because God is no respecter of persons. Remember the simplicity which is in Christ (2Cor11:3), and accept the parables as they are, not wresting the word (2Pet3:!6). And, it's not the first/last you said that seems dismissive to me. Yes, many of the first shall be among the last. We are here, among the last, as well. And, shall have opportunity to be among the first resurrected, as well. But, our talents aren't about how much we even receive, but what we do with what we have been given.

    @hillmountain
    Just to state my beliefs -- Mary was of course purely human, and the other ideas are false. There was only one without sin. Those scriptures are easy to find, without resorting to post-apostasy writings of the deluded. Yes, that is my characterization of those visions which sound so much like the forbidden sorceries and soothsayers forbidden in the OT times.

    @Hros the day of judgement is inevitable, but salvation is not. The resurrection will be had by all mankind, so in a sense yes, mortality shall be renewed to immortality. However, any unclean thing cannot abide the kingdom, as well as the converse. Only through Jesus Christ is either of those possible. Only through our choices to repent and eagerly accept what is given of grace. There are no accidental arrivals returning to God, but the valiant only.
     
  13. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    I may have been unclear. The thought isn’t that all beings have the same souls with certain features added. But there is a rank of types of souls and the higher souls have more powers.

    There were four humans created without sin: Jesus, Mary, Adam and Eve. Jesus is of course a very special case. But Adam and Eve were created without sin. However they chose to sin. Had they not then they’d have been like Mary. That choice caused a fracture in the nature of man. Mary was given super abundant graces and with those was able to not sin. That is certainly a reasonable belief. And it is not contradicted by tradition or Holy Scripture.
     
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  14. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Adam and Eve chose to sin, as do we all.

    Adam and Eve were created innocent, which is not at all the same as without sin. One who thinks any were without sin has not studied scripture. (Rom 3:23, etc) Rather than create an expanded list of citations, I'd invite you to remember this claim as part of your own studies in future days.

    Mary was definitely a virgin, meaning chaste and pure and free of certain types of sins and never before given to a man. A worthy vessel chosen by God. Respecting those chosen of God is important, but veneration cannot go into these odd forms of extraneous worship. We certainly don't worship angels like Gabriel (Noah) or Michael (Adam) despite their high status. Jesus also always told us to look to our Father as the master of good.

    My perspective is plain, and a simple web search will point you to plenty of good discussions about why this understanding is flatly biblical. In fact, it should also be held that any other writing contradicting so much of the Bible is then obviously in question. There doesn't need to be anything said about you or I or Mary or anyone else to know that we have sinned. Except to say that God's grace in forgiveness can remove the stain of our sin, and that we attain to an afterlife free from sin in the kingdom of God.

    Jesus, who chose and was able not only to never sin, but also to do the will of the Father became the hope of all creation. Jesus took on our sins as redeemer and suffered, died, and become the resurrection for the rest of the children of our Father in Heaven.
     
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  15. hillmountain

    hillmountain Fapstronaut

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    Adam and Eve, before their fall, were created both innocent (not knowing sin) and without sin.... They had the choice to reject or do sin, that was all... ONLY because they sinned, the actual stain of original sin came upon the human race....

    The traditional teaching from very early times, confirmed by many visions from God, is that Mary was born without any stain of sin and did not commit even a single sin in her life (although she may have done mistakes, which are not sins)....

    And Mary (and, to a lesser degree, other holy people as well) are VENERATED, not WORSHIPPED.. only God should be worshipped, and only God deserves the highest respect, love and service above all.......

    But the Catholic teaching on Mary is the same as what the church from early times, as well as the greatest fathers of the church have taught.... We venerate Mary greatly because of her total submission to God, her being without sin, and for being the Mother of God. (honor your father and mother... How much more the Mother of God).... We never worship Mary or say that she's equal to God, ever..........

    Another important point is that God is responsible for every good.... Mary is so holy and sinless above any other human only because she cooperated fully with God's Grace..... Without the Grace of God, everyone would be nothing...... We respect and love Mary mainly to glorify God through her, just as one would respect and love their friend's parents also to please their friend.....
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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  16. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    Same dif.:)
    Of course not - that's one aspect that just goes to show that God is leading the world in a certain direction.
     
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  17. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    Oh, I see :).
     
  18. Mr. McMarty

    Mr. McMarty Fapstronaut

    I got one for you @Hros At Christian churches there is sometimes Messianic Jewish services with the prayer shawl and the shofar and the yamika and stuff. I'm interested to know what a Jew feels about these Christians? I guess by a Jew I mean you because people can have differing opinions and so on.
    Honestly, I don't know how I feel about it.
     
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  19. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    @hillmountain have you heard about the high regard for Mary amoung Muslims? Ive heard it will be a potential way to evangalize them in the future.
     
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  20. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    In regards to the objects they use - if they're kosher by Jewish standards - it's a desecration. For the same reason Jews don't go into church, it's wrong for even a non-Jew to bring those objects into church.
    In regards to the person doing that... Wow, I never knew it happens on your end too. It's weird. Messianic Jews, Jews for Jesus & Hebrew Christians all go together as a modern strategy for missionizing Jews. The idea is to convince Jews (usually unsuspecting, non-religious ones) that Christianity isn't that different from Judaism. So they put up a whole Jewish spiel to draw in people, and then slowly start showing more and more Christian aspects and putting aside the Jewish ideas.
    Why would they be doing that in church, though? Weird...
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019

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